Sincere Questions for Conservatives

[FebruaryStation]

Yeah, first post here. Sorry.

So look, most of the places I hang out on the internet have a strong leftist bent. And usually that's fine, leftist views are more in line with my personal politics. The thing is, often issues come up where I think to myself, "I'd really like to know what the other side thinks about this." but there's no one to ask. If I post a thread on my usual spots, it's just going to get crowded with people with more leftist views eager to argue with any more conservative poster that's dumb enough to respond. I don't want that, I want to find out what the more right-wing portion of the population (mostly from an American perspective) actually thinks without getting into an argument about it.

So I heard about The Sietch as being a message board where some of the more conservative posters from Spacebattles (and SV?) had migrated when they felt they were no longer welcome at SB. And that's about all I know; I've never paid much attention to the politics of Spacebattles. Sorry. But it seemed like this could be a place to go to ask some of those questions.

I don't want to come into someone's home and shit on the floor. My rules for this are:
1. I'm going to try to avoid arguing back. I may sometimes ask for more clarification, or I may leave it as "Thank you for the response," but I don't want to get into an argument in someone else's home.
2. I am going to try to avoid talking about specific politicians. I'm more interested in general political philosophy or what you see yourselves as trying to accomplish.
3. I would like to avoid the "but what about the left" responses, though of course I can't control how you respond. Yeah, I don't know, probably there's plenty of shit talk and hypocrisy on the left, but I'd more like to hear about your personal experiences than the bad stuff people on the other side have done.

I may not get back to this thread every hour or anything since this isn't one of my regular spots, but I'll try to at least thank anyone who responds for their efforts.

So here we go, these are some starter questions.

1. Often in the very leftist/liberal spaces I hang out in, there is an accusation thrown around that leftists are supposed to try to understand and empathize with the point of view of the right wing, but there is no reciprocity. That is, no right wing media articles trying to patiently explain, "This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc." Do you feel like that's incorrect and that there's a lot of work done by the right to reach out and try to talk to the left? Have you personally ever had a leftist person in your life that you asked to explain their views to you and that sort of thing? Do you have a favorite article written for a right wing audience that's like "liberals explained so you can understand them" that seems sincere? Is there a "Hillbilly Elegy" for the right? Again (taps rule #3) please let's not make the conversation about whether leftists are actually trying to understand conservatives or not.


2. This one is American politics centered. On a federal level especially (though answer for other government levels if you like), what is the legislative agenda of the Republican party from your point of view as a common voter? What laws, specifically laws, would you like to see passed? What are the big priorities that can be addressed by laws. You notice how I keep saying "laws"? That's because, from my point of view, it often seems like Republican members of Congress spend a lot of time talking about issues that aren't really in the domain of government, or if they are seem only tangential. Like I don't think "cancel culture" is something that the United States Congress can really do much about. (Or maybe I'm wrong and you do think that.) But what laws would you like to see a Republican president and Congress pass if they could just pass any law they wanted? What would your highest legislative priorities be?


3. I see conservative arguments about immigration often get framed as an economic issue. Low skill immigrants driving down wages for low wage American workers. Immigrants taking too much money from the social safety net. But is it really just about the money? If you saw a convincing economic study that immigrants made the local community wealthier on net after, say, ten years of investment would you change your mind? Or maybe you don't need to change your mind. Do you have a sense for how much immigration you want to see? What about people coming into America to work and then leaving? How hard do you think that should be? Are there cultural concerns as well?

I guess I should say that I watched "An American Tail" growing up, you know. I heard about Ellis Island and immigrants coming in, being registered with a name, and getting citizenship like it was nothing... and framed in a positive way. Hey, I understand this is a really big question, but I guess I'd like to hear about what you as a conservative think about immigration in terms of general philosophy rather than as a specific question about border security or what to do with people here illegally or any of that.


4. Often in leftist circles you get a frustrated "why can't we convince conservatives of X; don't they see it would be in their own self-interest". So what's the reverse? What are the issues that conservatives see where you think leftists are absolutely screwing themselves, where it would be way more in their personal self-interest to follow the conservative policies because it would help them live happier, healthier, safer lives? Not cultural stuff, but areas where you legitimately think that if only leftists would understand what conservatives want to do, they'd see how it would make them more secure and better off.[1]

[1] You don't have to tell me about land use regulations. Screw mandatory single family occupancy and the leftists who support it.


Okay, I think that was a pretty good starter. If this thread is in any way successful, I might come back and ask more questions as they occur to me. Thanks in advance for anyone participating.

 

[Bacle]

It's rather brave of you to do this, so bravo to you.

I am an ex-Dem and Registered Independent myself, not a 'conservative' by the usual definition, and understand how the Left often operates on a parody of the Right in their heads, rather than the reality of the Right as seen from the inside.

I can tell you that the way you framed some of those questions show you are operating on some false assumptions/parodies yourself. However that you are open minded enough to ask this sort of question shows you are different than many of your fellows.

One thing you need to realize is that there are varying views and opinions of what 'conservatism' should be among those on the Right, and some have moved directly to accelerationism and neoreactionary directs because they do not see 'traditional' conservatism as having any real power anymore. Some are of the more libertarian vareity, and will have very different answers than others parts of the Right, and some are legit monarchists who are sort of a z-axis to the usual Right/Left paradigm that exist in US politics.

I would also recommend deep diving into the threads around here, you will find many of the answers you desire and see the more 'nitty-gritty' of what conservatives are like on thier own terms.

However do be prepared for some insults and such to be directed your way, no matter how noble your intent; there are some parts of the Right who do not want to find common ground and just want to crush the Left out of anger and spite, so they will likely find your presence/goal to be a threat to them.

Also, understand that many people here have had extensive experience with getting gaslit and harassed by people on the Left, and understand the Lefts methods rather well, so they are not ignorant of how the Left acts or sees itself either.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Yeah, first post here. Sorry.

Well, first off welcome to the boards, good to see another leftist here.

1. Often in the very leftist/liberal spaces I hang out in, there is an accusation thrown around that leftists are supposed to try to understand and empathize with the point of view of the right wing, but there is no reciprocity. That is, no right wing media articles trying to patiently explain, "This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc." Do you feel like that's incorrect and that there's a lot of work done by the right to reach out and try to talk to the left? Have you personally ever had a leftist person in your life that you asked to explain their views to you and that sort of thing? Do you have a favorite article written for a right wing audience that's like "liberals explained so you can understand them" that seems sincere? Is there a "Hillbilly Elegy" for the right? Again (taps rule #3) please let's not make the conversation about whether leftists are actually trying to understand conservatives or not.

As a general rule, conservatives already understand liberals far better than the reverse. There are actually multiple scientific studies establishing this.

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The reason, IMO, isn't that conservatives are more understanding by nature but liberal control of media and institutions is so ubiquitous it's impossible to do things like watch TV or attend school without being exposed to liberal viewpoints, while it's casually easy to never run into a conservative viewpoint. F'rex have you ever seen a character in a TV comedy whose lovable quirk was collecting guns*? Of course not, but you'll see plenty of lovable quirks that mirror various liberal ideologies. The liberal tendency to try to shut down and remove conservative viewpoints rather than engage them only exacerbates this. As a result, every conservative is regularly exposed to liberal viewpoints and has a grasp of them while many liberals haven't the slightest idea what

As a result, you will not see the Right struggling to comprehend the thinking of the Left and having to make websites to educate other conservatives on how the left thinks, this is common knowledge to them.

*The closest you're likely to get is Dale Gribble, who is shown as unable to shoot straight, is a complete idiot, and also constantly cuckolded in-show. His liking for guns isn't shown in a positive light but one of many, many character flaws, and he's repeatedly humiliated for it.

3. I see conservative arguments about immigration often get framed as an economic issue. Low skill immigrants driving down wages for low wage American workers. Immigrants taking too much money from the social safety net. But is it really just about the money? If you saw a convincing economic study that immigrants made the local community wealthier on net after, say, ten years of investment would you change your mind? Or maybe you don't need to change your mind. Do you have a sense for how much immigration you want to see? What about people coming into America to work and then leaving? How hard do you think that should be? Are there cultural concerns as well?

Actually economic immigration is a leftist viewpoint, you're not framing a conservative argument there but presenting a leftist one as if it's conservative,, this is what @Bacle was talking about.

Look at posts involving immigration here on The Sietch and you'll find almost nothing about economics or driving down wages. However, mention H1B1 visas to a leftists tech worker in Silicon Valley and be prepared for them to become spitting mad about how those immigrants are driving down their wages (Meanwhile they excuse the same happening to rural workers on the grounds that "Americans won't do those jobs" even though that's pretty well established as untrue).

Concerns on the right about immigration (seen here on the Sietch rather than whatever leftist site you may have thought was on the right) tend to center around threats of increased crime, potential terrorists or external enemies using unsecured borders to get in, and human trafficking ie. modern slavery.

I guess I should say that I watched "An American Tail" growing up, you know. I heard about Ellis Island and immigrants coming in, being registered with a name, and getting citizenship like it was nothing... and framed in a positive way. Hey, I understand this is a really big question, but I guess I'd like to hear about what you as a conservative think about immigration in terms of general philosophy rather than as a specific question about border security or what to do with people here illegally or any of that.

Conservatives tend to be in favor of legal immigrants and harsh on illegal ones. Most of them would agree with An American Tail while despising Mexican Drug Cartels smuggling drugs and slaves across the borders.

4. Often in leftist circles you get a frustrated "why can't we convince conservatives of X; don't they see it would be in their own self-interest". So what's the reverse? What are the issues that conservatives see where you think leftists are absolutely screwing themselves, where it would be way more in their personal self-interest to follow the conservative policies because it would help them live happier, healthier, safer lives? Not cultural stuff, but areas where you legitimately think that if only leftists would understand what conservatives want to do, they'd see how it would make them more secure and better off.[1]

[1] You don't have to tell me about land use regulations. Screw mandatory single family occupancy and the leftists who support it.

The closest you're likely to find is people talking about how decades of Democrat rule turned Detroit from a thriving industrial powerhouse into a decaying pit, or how "The Projects" turned once thriving and productive inner-city areas into ghettos full of segregation, crime, and drugs.

 

[FebruaryStation]

I can tell you that the way you framed some of those questions show you are operating on some false assumptions/parodies yourself. However that you are open minded enough to ask this sort of question shows you are different than many of your fellows.

Thank you, I'm trying to be aware of the echo chamber I myself might be in, and of course for at least a couple of these questions I'm framing it in a, "this is what I hear, but what does the other side think" manner.

I would also recommend deep diving into the threads around here, you will find many of the answers you desire and see the more 'nitty-gritty' of what conservatives are like on thier own terms.

One of the things is that threads are naturally usually about specific issues, and I'm looking for more of a broad view "how do people see the world and what do they care about". Totally get that of course everyone will have their own point of view.

Also, understand that many people here have had extensive experience with getting gaslit and harassed by people on the Left, and understand the Lefts methods rather well, so they are not ignorant of how the Left acts or sees itself either.

I will keep it in mind, thanks.

 

[Whitestrake Pelinal]

So I heard about The Sietch as being a message board where some of the more conservative posters from Spacebattles (and SV?) had migrated when they felt they were no longer welcome at SB. And that's about all I know; I've never paid much attention to the politics of Spacebattles. Sorry. But it seemed like this could be a place to go to ask some of those questions.

Are you addressing them to self-identified Conservatives in specific, or inclusive to those who are typically lumped in with conservatives as well?

 

[FebruaryStation]

Well, first off welcome to the boards, good to see another leftist here.

As a general rule, conservatives already understand liberals far better than the reverse. There are actually multiple scientific studies establishing this.

Thanks for the response. As I understand it, the cultural dominance of leftists viewpoints makes efforts to understand leftists* less necessary in determining how to engage with them?

*By the way, I've generally been trying to use "leftist" rather than "liberal" because nobody seems to agree on what "liberal" means anymore... at least in liberal/leftist circles!

Actually economic immigration is a leftist viewpoint, you're not framing a conservative argument there but presenting a leftist one as if it's conservative,, this is what @Bacle was talking about.

Thanks for the correction! Economic arguments are often how the concerns are filtered through to leftists when conservative politicians try to talk to us (rather than to their conservative constituents) so I hadn't realized that it's considered a lower priority among actual conservatives.

Concerns on the right about immigration (seen here on the Sietch rather than whatever leftist site you may have thought was on the right) tend to center around threats of increased crime, potential terrorists or external enemies using unsecured borders to get in, and human trafficking ie. modern slavery.

Conservatives tend to be in favor of legal immigrants and harsh on illegal ones. Most of them would agree with An American Tail while despising Mexican Drug Cartels smuggling drugs and slaves across the borders.

Thanks for making it clear it's more about security concerns. I admit, I don't really feel the threat in my gut, and it's hard for me to understand why this stuff has such salience for a lot of conservatives. You mention increased crime, potential terrorists/foreign enemies, and human trafficking. Are all of those pretty much equal concerns, or do you think one of those is really the big problem and the other two less so?

When you picture legal immigrants and illegal immigrants, are they fundamentally different sorts of people? I guess what I'm saying is, do you think of it as pretty interchangeable where if we allowed an extra one million legal immigrants a year, then we would have about one million less illegal immigrants because they'd all immigrate legally instead? Or do you view them as mutually exclusive, that the sort of people we'd let in as legal immigrants would never come here illegally?

The closest you're likely to find is people talking about how decades of Democrat rule turned Detroit from a thriving industrial powerhouse into a decaying pit, or how "The Projects" turned once thriving and productive inner-city areas into ghettos full of segregation, crime, and drugs.

I hope this doesn't come across as too argumentative, but this seems like a very "don't do this" take on the question. Well okay, decades of Democrat rule and the Projects bad... but are there specific positive things conservatives want to do that if explained to me I'd go, "Fuck yeah, that would make my life better!"

What is the positive conservative agenda? I know there's a lot of libertarian bent here, so for many the question might be just stuff the government should stop doing, but is there a "meat-and-potatoes" case to be made on that side rather than just philosophical?

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Yeah, first post here. Sorry.

Welcome to the board! Feel free to come forward to the staff if their are any concerns or questions about policy.

I will post a in depth answer to your question when I get off work, but for now welcome! It's good to see people who still keep an open mind.

 

[Rocinante]

To kind of echo what @Bacle and @Bear Ribs hinted at, man, I was surprised to find you genuinely asking questions and looking for answers instead of arguments.

I saw the thread title and was expecting to see some arrogant lefty trying to lay down the frame work for some kind of "gotcha" moment later. I rolled my eyes and said "oh this will be good," before coming into the thread.

I'm glad you're not doing that.

I don't have much to add right now but wanted to say that.

I'm an ex lefty myself, and from having been inside far left and far right spaces, I can say that I find the lefties to be far less tolerant and far more unkind in general, and to be honest this is PART of what helped me move away from the left.

Though it was mostly driven by them shooting hard and fast toward the fringe and leaving me behind. The rest was people having open conversations with me and causing me to see things in a different light.

so I hope you find what you're looking for here, because I can absolutely guarantee you that whatever impression you have of us from other lefties out there, is flat out wrong.

I realized this when I realized how wrong I was about them when I was a lefty.

 

[Battlegrinder]

1. Often in the very leftist/liberal spaces I hang out in, there is an accusation thrown around that leftists are supposed to try to understand and empathize with the point of view of the right wing, but there is no reciprocity. That is, no right wing media articles trying to patiently explain, "This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc." Do you feel like that's incorrect and that there's a lot of work done by the right to reach out and try to talk to the left? Have you personally ever had a leftist person in your life that you asked to explain their views to you and that sort of thing? Do you have a favorite article written for a right wing audience that's like "liberals explained so you can understand them" that seems sincere? Is there a "Hillbilly Elegy" for the right? Again (taps rule #3) please let's not make the conversation about whether leftists are actually trying to understand conservatives or not.

I think @Bear Ribs hit the nail on the head with this one. The media and entertainment industry are overwhelming left leaning and will do a lot to spread and explain left wing ideas, even without someone actively seeking them out. There are some exceptions for niche issues or fast moving events and changes, but generally right leaning people will understand the gist of a particular left wing idea.

As far as the "how to reach out and find common ground" stuff, I have noticed a bit less of that over the fast few years, not nessariarlily because conservatives believe it's not possible, but because there is a perception that they're being deliberately blocked from attempting to reach out (if you see someone on the right complaining about "Big Tech Censorship" or the like, that's probably what they're upset about), but conservatives do still think that if they could just get people to step outside of the media bubble and evaluate issues objectively, that those people would come around (in fairness, that's not a unique trait, everyone thinks that if you look at the world from an objective standpoint you will arrive at the obviously correct conclusion, namely the same conclusion they themselves reached).

2. This one is American politics centered. On a federal level especially (though answer for other government levels if you like), what is the legislative agenda of the Republican party from your point of view as a common voter? What laws, specifically laws, would you like to see passed? What are the big priorities that can be addressed by laws. You notice how I keep saying "laws"? That's because, from my point of view, it often seems like Republican members of Congress spend a lot of time talking about issues that aren't really in the domain of government, or if they are seem only tangential. Like I don't think "cancel culture" is something that the United States Congress can really do much about. (Or maybe I'm wrong and you do think that.) But what laws would you like to see a Republican president and Congress pass if they could just pass any law they wanted? What would your highest legislative priorities be?

I think you're correct in that a lot of issues today cannot be solved legislatively, you can't just pass a line banning tribalism and partisanship. That's something people will have to solve themselves. That's not say you couldn't try and muddle with section 230 to try and stop Facebook from banning people for wrongthink or something, but I'm not entirely certain it would work.

That aside, I do have a few other, more clear cut ideas:
1. Pass the Sunshine Protection Act. DST is a pointless relic and should be abolished.
2. National ban on abortion unless the health of the mother is in jeopardy or if there are other serious complications.
3. Substantially rework us gun laws and regulations. Get rid of all design restrictions for weapons, there's no justifiable reason to make rifles with 14 inch barrels heavily restricted while ones with 16 inch barrels are fine. Repeal the hughs amendment and maybe updated the cost of purchasing a tax stamp for an automatic weapon to be more in tune with the current value of the dollar.
4. National school voucher system.
5. Establish limits for senators and representatives.
6. Ban live broadcast of congressional sessions, and archive all footage for at least a year before releasing it. Transcripts will be fine for keeping the price informed, and this will remove the incentive for congressional reps to try and using hearings to generate clips for Twitter.

4. Often in leftist circles you get a frustrated "why can't we convince conservatives of X; don't they see it would be in their own self-interest". So what's the reverse? What are the issues that conservatives see where you think leftists are absolutely screwing themselves, where it would be way more in their personal self-interest to follow the conservative policies because it would help them live happier, healthier, safer lives? Not cultural stuff, but areas where you legitimately think that if only leftists would understand what conservatives want to do, they'd see how it would make them more secure and better off.[1]

The immediate point that comes to mind would be school choice. The US education system needs a serious shakeup to force it to improve in quality even if you have no objections to the precise content. The leftist solution of "throw more money at it" has been failing for like 40 years now, they need to try something else.

Police would be another area. Police policy, especially city police policy, is a fundamentally local issue and can best be addressed at the local level. Listening to conservatives and accepting the legitimate role of federalism woyld be far better as opposed to the current myopic focus on trying to impose a top down solution to a problem that is endemic to democrat controlled cities that could easily do something themselves.

Related to the above, lefts have a bad habit of pushing for immediate, radical change instead of a more measured pace with reasonable goals. "Abolish The Police" is a radical solution, and when a few cities tried to implement it, it didn't work out at all, but BLM didn't have a better, more measured solution to try instead, so at the end of the day, the movement that started out with considerable public support and billions of dollars in funding ended up with less than nothing to show for it all.

 

[Cherico]

1. Often in the very leftist/liberal spaces I hang out in, there is an accusation thrown around that leftists are supposed to try to understand and empathize with the point of view of the right wing, but there is no reciprocity. That is, no right wing media articles trying to patiently explain, "This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc." Do you feel like that's incorrect and that there's a lot of work done by the right to reach out and try to talk to the left? Have you personally ever had a leftist person in your life that you asked to explain their views to you and that sort of thing? Do you have a favorite article written for a right wing audience that's like "liberals explained so you can understand them" that seems sincere? Is there a "Hillbilly Elegy" for the right? Again (taps rule #3) please let's not make the conversation about whether leftists are actually trying to understand conservatives or not.


2. This one is American politics centered. On a federal level especially (though answer for other government levels if you like), what is the legislative agenda of the Republican party from your point of view as a common voter? What laws, specifically laws, would you like to see passed? What are the big priorities that can be addressed by laws. You notice how I keep saying "laws"? That's because, from my point of view, it often seems like Republican members of Congress spend a lot of time talking about issues that aren't really in the domain of government, or if they are seem only tangential. Like I don't think "cancel culture" is something that the United States Congress can really do much about. (Or maybe I'm wrong and you do think that.) But what laws would you like to see a Republican president and Congress pass if they could just pass any law they wanted? What would your highest legislative priorities be?


3. I see conservative arguments about immigration often get framed as an economic issue. Low skill immigrants driving down wages for low wage American workers. Immigrants taking too much money from the social safety net. But is it really just about the money? If you saw a convincing economic study that immigrants made the local community wealthier on net after, say, ten years of investment would you change your mind? Or maybe you don't need to change your mind. Do you have a sense for how much immigration you want to see? What about people coming into America to work and then leaving? How hard do you think that should be? Are there cultural concerns as well?

I guess I should say that I watched "An American Tail" growing up, you know. I heard about Ellis Island and immigrants coming in, being registered with a name, and getting citizenship like it was nothing... and framed in a positive way. Hey, I understand this is a really big question, but I guess I'd like to hear about what you as a conservative think about immigration in terms of general philosophy rather than as a specific question about border security or what to do with people here illegally or any of that.


4. Often in leftist circles you get a frustrated "why can't we convince conservatives of X; don't they see it would be in their own self-interest". So what's the reverse? What are the issues that conservatives see where you think leftists are absolutely screwing themselves, where it would be way more in their personal self-interest to follow the conservative policies because it would help them live happier, healthier, safer lives? Not cultural stuff, but areas where you legitimately think that if only leftists would understand what conservatives want to do, they'd see how it would make them more secure and better off.[1]


Ok first of all your thinking of politics as a binary that isn't quite true.

There are three core values, Equality, Liberty, Franternity/stability and these core values are mutually exclusive.

If you want more equality your going to create more laws and intrude on peoples freedoms which means less liberty, your also going to affect the stability of the socity.

If you want more liberty then there will be unequal outcomes because people make differnt decisions and their will be less stability.

If you want more stability there will be less freedom and less equality, the world is a series of trade offs and anyone who tells you differntly is trying to sell you something or is an idiot. The conservative movement as it used to be was a grand alliance between the liberty and stability folks to balance out the other part of the triangle.

The current populist movement is a grand alliance against the left of a whole bunch of people who just do not get along, populism really only happens as a thing when some one has deeply fucked up. So expect people on the right to disagree on a lot of things because the current set up is that grand alliance.



1. Its been mentioned but the left holds majority power in the media, and has a lock on most of the educational system the right is very aware of what the left belives because quite simply put the left wont shut the fuck up about it. Currently the left is trying to censor people in mass has used political violence against their political oponates and generally speaking the bridges have been very throughly burned.

pretty much every one here has been burned pretty badly hence all the bad feelings.

2. Like I said its currently a grand alliance of a bunch of disparit people, right now what most people agree on is they want the current busy body nanny state to fuck off, they want the so called experts who have very publically fucked up to stop intruding into our private lives and fuck off and they want the people who used political terrorism to destroy our homes, busineses and MURDER our friends in jail.

Your probally not aware of the shear levels of which the left has poisoned the well, because honestly you have been lied to a lot. Once you find out the shear level you have been lied to you will get pretty pissed off and thats normal.


3. The conservative view of immigration runs the gamet cant speak for the entire comunity on that one.

4. The left 'why are you voting against your self interest thing'? That fails to take in the fact that people value different things. Some times people will sacerfice some things to get things they wanted like for example not wanting a program that might help you because it will cause higher taxes, has byzantine rules and you feel like your better off just solving your own problems then dealing with that bullshit.

But since you asked the question here are the big 2.

1. Marxism/communism/socialism....ect

its been a hundred fucking years, every time this shit has been tried the result has been the same poverty, opression and mass murder and death, litterally do ANYTHING else. Your statistically better off in a fucking civil war then under a communist regieme. Its time to put this bullshit in the grave and move on with your lives.

2. Holding onto corrupt officials.

Look at the major democrat cities notice how a lot of them are shitholes? A lot of that is epidemic corruption and graft with quite a few people embezzeling money like crazy, because how else does a socialist become a millionare on a government salary? The current democratic party is incredibly corrupt. You guys say you want programs well how are those programs going to function with all of these assholes stealing from the till?

The party desperatly needs a corruption purge ten years ago.

 

[Nitramy]

Often in the very leftist/liberal spaces I hang out in, there is an accusation thrown around that leftists are supposed to try to understand and empathize with the point of view of the right wing, but there is no reciprocity. That is, no right wing media articles trying to patiently explain, "This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc." Do you feel like that's incorrect and that there's a lot of work done by the right to reach out and try to talk to the left? Have you personally ever had a leftist person in your life that you asked to explain their views to you and that sort of thing? Do you have a favorite article written for a right wing audience that's like "liberals explained so you can understand them" that seems sincere? Is there a "Hillbilly Elegy" for the right? Again (taps rule #3) please let's not make the conversation about whether leftists are actually trying to understand conservatives or not.

I'd say that the left treats any attempt by the right to "understand" how they think as an attack on their personal, intellectual, and political hegemony.

Remember, leftists treat "the personal is political" as a religious mantra. With that in mind, how do you think leftists would treat attempts at "understanding" them?

Spoiler

If your answer is "They're trying to read our tactics to defeat us later! We have to shout them down using our authority and the use of weasel words to remove their credibility, and use our entrenched positions in media and academia to prevent their voice from spreading!" then you would be correct.

 

[Culsu]

On my mobile here, but take into account that many topics on what can broadly be considered the Right, even or especially on this board, differ based on the location of the posters. Most American posters will have different ideas and ideals about immigration than the European posters here. The latter often delve at least partly into ethnic and cultural issues since those peoples and nations tend to define themselves along different lines than the US historically seems to do. There is no idea of the Melting Pot in European countries, and the further east you go the less tolerance for divergence you get.

 

[FebruaryStation]

Thanks for the response!

I think @Bear Ribs hit the nail on the head with this one. The media and entertainment industry are overwhelming left leaning and will do a lot to spread and explain left wing ideas, even without someone actively seeking them out. There are some exceptions for niche issues or fast moving events and changes, but generally right leaning people will understand the gist of a particular left wing idea.

I feel that this is a very unfortunate perception in one important way. The media and entertainment industry is obviously much more concerned with questions of values than of public policy and laws and trade-offs and benefits.

So it's true that left wing values are probably pretty well represented in media and entertainment, but I'm not convinced that left wing ideas are. It's a vague liberal background radiation and you might learn "leftists think guns are bad" but you're not going to get a coherent argument for why they think that* or what you might do to change their mind or any potential compromises to be had. It is at the end of the day, leftist values filtered through an entertainment lens that will leave the ideas sounding dumber and less grounded than perhaps they are.

*Of course, maybe many of them think that because they saw it on television, but what can you do?

As far as the "how to reach out and find common ground" stuff, I have noticed a bit less of that over the fast few years, not nessariarlily because conservatives believe it's not possible, but because there is a perception that they're being deliberately blocked from attempting to reach out (if you see someone on the right complaining about "Big Tech Censorship" or the like, that's probably what they're upset about), but conservatives do still think that if they could just get people to step outside of the media bubble and evaluate issues objectively, that those people would come around (in fairness, that's not a unique trait, everyone thinks that if you look at the world from an objective standpoint you will arrive at the obviously correct conclusion, namely the same conclusion they themselves reached).

Hoo boy, the idea of big tech censorship probably deserves its own thread. Suffice it to say that I don't think anyone on the left or right has a good idea for how we want to handle this or what we really want. There are enormous competing concerns of two diametrically opposed models of "free speech"*, respect for private ownership, and potential very real physical harm some yahoo trying to use Facebook to organize a genocide by telling his countrymen to go out and kill, kill, kill.

*Free speech is being able to say what you want in the public square without someone shutting you down. Free speech is the government can't force you to use your printing press to publish anything you don't want to publish. Facebook is both the public square and the printing press.

That aside, I do have a few other, more clear cut ideas:
1. Pass the Sunshine Protection Act. DST is a pointless relic and should be abolished.
2. National ban on abortion unless the health of the mother is in jeopardy or if there are other serious complications.
3. Substantially rework us gun laws and regulations. Get rid of all design restrictions for weapons, there's no justifiable reason to make rifles with 14 inch barrels heavily restricted while ones with 16 inch barrels are fine. Repeal the hughs amendment and maybe updated the cost of purchasing a tax stamp for an automatic weapon to be more in tune with the current value of the dollar.
4. National school voucher system.
5. Establish limits for senators and representatives.
6. Ban live broadcast of congressional sessions, and archive all footage for at least a year before releasing it. Transcripts will be fine for keeping the price informed, and this will remove the incentive for congressional reps to try and using hearings to generate clips for Twitter.

Just to tell you my reaction, a lot of this seems what I would call "small beer". Putting abortion to the side for a minute since that's been a bleeding argument for a long time and I can least agree that people on both sides of it think it is important, all of the other stuff wouldn't make my top ten list of issues. It's not even about whether I think it would be good or bad, but that it seems really low on the priority list in terms of "changing lives". Maybe the school one I guess?

This is something I've occasionally said to my family and friends, that I think part of what is so disheartening about the partisan divide in the United States is that we can't even agree on what the important issues facing the United States actually are. There's no way to compromise on solutions if both sides can't agree on the problems to be solved.

Like, my list might include something about climate change, reducing poverty, getting health care to people, reducing political corruption and tax evasion, sorting out how we want to do immigration, eliminating gerrymandering... blah, blah, blah I'm sure nothing on there would surprise you if you tried to put together the "liberal list". And it's not that you had different ideas for those things and wanted to push a conservative solution instead of a liberal solution. It's that they didn't even make your list as thing to be addressed. And truthfully school reform, while important, might not make mine.

Which hey, that might seem like I'm reproaching you for, but everybody has their own priorities. It just feels bad man that leftists and conservatives are at the "arguing over what is even the problem" stage rather than the "competing solutions" stage.

Police would be another area. Police policy, especially city police policy, is a fundamentally local issue and can best be addressed at the local level. Listening to conservatives and accepting the legitimate role of federalism woyld be far better as opposed to the current myopic focus on trying to impose a top down solution to a problem that is endemic to democrat controlled cities that could easily do something themselves.

That police are locally controlled... or at least controlled by the state governments (who can after all overrule any city government if they want), is just plain truth. I'm not actually aware of any national level proposed Democrat legislation to change that. All I can find in a quick google is the George Floyd Act which... I mean, it all seems pretty weak and around the edges stuff. My understanding is that most of the localized anti-police protests are addressed at their own mayor and city council, not the federal system.

Is there a widespread perception among conservatives that Democrat politicians are trying to federalize police policy as a whole?

Related to the above, lefts have a bad habit of pushing for immediate, radical change instead of a more measured pace with reasonable goals. "Abolish The Police" is a radical solution, and when a few cities tried to implement it, it didn't work out at all, but BLM didn't have a better, more measured solution to try instead, so at the end of the day, the movement that started out with considerable public support and billions of dollars in funding ended up with less than nothing to show for it all.

Respectfully, this is veering back to "but what should Democrats do". Maybe they should and maybe they shouldn't, but do Republicans have a proposal to change things they don't like about how police operate? Are conservatives unhappy with anything about how police operate, or is this more of the "we don't see a problem that needs to be solved"? (Again, that's a sincere question.)

 

[FebruaryStation]

Thanks for the reply!

1. Its been mentioned but the left holds majority power in the media, and has a lock on most of the educational system the right is very aware of what the left belives because quite simply put the left wont shut the fuck up about it. Currently the left is trying to censor people in mass has used political violence against their political oponates and generally speaking the bridges have been very throughly burned.

pretty much every one here has been burned pretty badly hence all the bad feelings.

This response has been very consistent. I'm not sure what if anything is to be done about it.

2. Like I said its currently a grand alliance of a bunch of disparit people, right now what most people agree on is they want the current busy body nanny state to fuck off, they want the so called experts who have very publically fucked up to stop intruding into our private lives and fuck off and they want the people who used political terrorism to destroy our homes, busineses and MURDER our friends in jail.

Your probally not aware of the shear levels of which the left has poisoned the well, because honestly you have been lied to a lot. Once you find out the shear level you have been lied to you will get pretty pissed off and thats normal.

Are there proposed bills in Congress to reduce the power of the state and specific federal agencies that you support and advocate for?

4. The left 'why are you voting against your self interest thing'? That fails to take in the fact that people value different things. Some times people will sacerfice some things to get things they wanted like for example not wanting a program that might help you because it will cause higher taxes, has byzantine rules and you feel like your better off just solving your own problems then dealing with that bullshit.

I completely agree that there are values higher than monetary, and I think "I'm voting for this because this is the right thing to do even if it makes us poorer" would be a legitimate position.

1. Marxism/communism/socialism....ect

its been a hundred fucking years, every time this shit has been tried the result has been the same poverty, opression and mass murder and death, litterally do ANYTHING else. Your statistically better off in a fucking civil war then under a communist regieme. Its time to put this bullshit in the grave and move on with your lives.

Is there some specific action you would like to take in order to put this bullshit in the grave?

In a free political system people are going to keep arguing for things you think you are bad, so I'm not sure there's anything to be done about it.

2. Holding onto corrupt officials.

Look at the major democrat cities notice how a lot of them are shitholes? A lot of that is epidemic corruption and graft with quite a few people embezzeling money like crazy, because how else does a socialist become a millionare on a government salary? The current democratic party is incredibly corrupt. You guys say you want programs well how are those programs going to function with all of these assholes stealing from the till?

But what's the proposed solution? Plenty of conservatives live even in major democrat cities. Do they have ideas that resonate with you on how to fix things? Is there an agreed on conservative policy proposal, even in broad outlines?

Thanks again for your response!

 

[FebruaryStation]

I'd say that the left treats any attempt by the right to "understand" how they think as an attack on their personal, intellectual, and political hegemony.

Thanks for the response! Wish I knew how to fix it.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I'd like to advise that you take a look at a bit more of the board than just the political section. Read a few stories, comment on a few artworks, maybe participate in a quest or two. This will give you two advantages for your stated goals:

1: You'll get a bit more of the culture and understanding of the thinking by looking at the culture directly than asking people to explain themselves. The people explaining themselves are naturally going to try to present themselves in the best possible light and may not actually perfectly understand their own motives.

2: You'll be perceived as "one of us" and get better treatment from people who might otherwise see you as an outsider come to just lecture or berate conservatives. This will, again, get you better answers.

3: This is obviously totally not just because I like people looking at my work.

Thanks for the response. As I understand it, the cultural dominance of leftists viewpoints makes efforts to understand leftists* less necessary in determining how to engage with them?

*By the way, I've generally been trying to use "leftist" rather than "liberal" because nobody seems to agree on what "liberal" means anymore... at least in liberal/leftist circles!

Hmm, not so much that efforts are less necessary as "You've probably already made the effort because leftist viewpoints are everywhere." If you grew up watching Saturday Morning Cartoons in the 90s odds are long you ran into Captain Planet and the Planeteers during one of its six seasons. Odds are pretty good you ran into nothing remotely equivalent on the conservative side because it doesn't exist.

Thanks for the correction! Economic arguments are often how the concerns are filtered through to leftists when conservative politicians try to talk to us (rather than to their conservative constituents) so I hadn't realized that it's considered a lower priority among actual conservatives.

To clarify a bit more, in general conservatives consider economic competition as a healthy thing so "competition driving down wages/prices" aren't going to naturally look like negatives to them. On the economic side, you'll find considerably more complaints about how big tech companies have near-monopolies and are acting as a cabal to maintain power and stifle competition than that there's too much competition at any level.

Thanks for making it clear it's more about security concerns. I admit, I don't really feel the threat in my gut, and it's hard for me to understand why this stuff has such salience for a lot of conservatives. You mention increased crime, potential terrorists/foreign enemies, and human trafficking. Are all of those pretty much equal concerns, or do you think one of those is really the big problem and the other two less so?

Bear in mind I'm one of the more liberal posters on the board, I'm essentially a leftist who happens to hate abortion and love guns and often feels nigh-excommunicated by other leftists for daring to disagree on any issue at all, so my opinions are probably not as strong as many who are more conservative.

What you're asking is going to vary a lot by person, however. I can't really speak for others, but I suspect myself, @Bacle, and @Abhorsen would all call human trafficking the biggest issue because we all put a higher value on personal freedom. Other people will value national defense or crime more depending on their views. Based on this recent post, I suspect @Alathon is looking at the crime aspect the most.

This is the kind of thing Conservatives would consider of serious concern. However, if you posted this on leftist boards, you'd likely be infracted for vague reasons or at least called racist even though you presented actual facts.

When you picture legal immigrants and illegal immigrants, are they fundamentally different sorts of people? I guess what I'm saying is, do you think of it as pretty interchangeable where if we allowed an extra one million legal immigrants a year, then we would have about one million less illegal immigrants because they'd all immigrate legally instead? Or do you view them as mutually exclusive, that the sort of people we'd let in as legal immigrants would never come here illegally?

In your second question (I declined to cover it because I did not feel my answers would be useful to help you understand anything) you brought up an emphasis on law. At the very least, you've got a partial answer, illegal immigrants by definition are lawbreakers while legal immigrants are not. One can extrapolate, rightly or wrongly, that therefore illegal immigrants are more likely to be criminals than legals because they started from a position of performing an unlawful act.

Myself, I've posted before on these boards that in my opinion, all illegal immigrants are not created equal and I see relatively little harm in somebody overstaying a college visa to become some rich Californian's maid or gardener, compared to somebody slipping across the border with a shipping container full of fifty slaves destined for brothels or half a million in cocaine.

I personally have a great deal of family in, and legally immigrated from, Argentina so they're going to significantly shape my perceptions of how legal immigrants are, of course. In general most of my Argentine family utterly despises illegal immigrants*, far more than I do, due to perceived cheating, laziness, and taking shortcuts.

*Especially ones later given citizenship for free.

I hope this doesn't come across as too argumentative, but this seems like a very "don't do this" take on the question. Well okay, decades of Democrat rule and the Projects bad... but are there specific positive things conservatives want to do that if explained to me I'd go, "Fuck yeah, that would make my life better!"

What is the positive conservative agenda? I know there's a lot of libertarian bent here, so for many the question might be just stuff the government should stop doing, but is there a "meat-and-potatoes" case to be made on that side rather than just philosophical?

You are correct, and... thinking like a leftist. "What can the government do for me?" is an inherently leftist position. The conservative viewpoint is that the government should stay out of the way and let the people do things themselves. The advantage they perceive is freedom, not "Big Brother did X for me." The freedom to pick whatever school you want rather than have to go through government-approved-only options, the freedom to start your own business, with blackjack and hookers, rather than big tech closing ranks to prevent competition and big banking cutting off payment options to ensure your business dies and their cabal thrives, the freedom to speak your mind. At the same time there would be competition. Yes, competition with you from other people, but also more business, and smaller ones, competing for your dollars, your attention, and your energy at all levels rather than a few megacorporations who don't care about you because you have no choice in where else to go anyway.

To draw what we'd likely consider the biggest advantage in this freedom and competition if you were to go to our political forum, right now, and post a screed about how great communism is, you'd likely garner fifty replies in an hour about how you're wrong about everything from the beginning of the world* to date and are about as sharp as a bag full of hammers.

However, if you went to SpaceBattles, Alternate History, or Sufficient Velocity and posted a similarly extreme right position, you wouldn't make it to fifty replies before you were infracted for "racism," "flamebait," "bad faith," or just "generated too many reports." Your thread would be locked, you'd be banned, and your attempts at a discussion would be memory-holed. You have the freedom here to have your own opinion and also see many competing opinions instead of just the ones approved by the mods.

*And I can say this comfortably because we've had posters that took those positions such as @DirtbagLeft, and no moderator action was taken against them. Granted you'll still eat infractions if you actually flame or insult other members, but you won't just for having an unpopular opinion unless said opinion is actively illegal, such as advocating pedophilia or terrorism.

 

[DarthOne]

Thanks for the response! Wish I knew how to fix it.

Welcome to the site! And good Lord, don't we all wish we knew how to fix it....

 

[The Whispering Monk]

WELCOME TO THE GROUP!!!!

I hope your conversations are enlightening!

that leftists are supposed to try to understand and empathize with the point of view of the right wing, but there is no reciprocity.

This has been addressed a good bit already. The only thing I'll add is that a LOT of conservatives, including me, consciously read leftist viewpoints. I'm a philosopher be degree and appreciate seeing where people's beliefs are formed and what kind of foundation they have for those beliefs.

"This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc."

A great majority of people, left or right, are generally pretty cool. Different points of view aren't the problem. The problem is that MANY of the voices from the left have stopped listening. If you disagree with them, you're racist, not woke or some other term that justifies their superior belief system. This is probably the one thing that scares me most about the left. I study history as well, and this trend leads to road filled with a LOT of abuse and blood. I do not want to see it come to that point, and it's one reason I'm happy to have you hear.

Have you personally ever had a leftist person in your life that you asked to explain their views to you and that sort of thing?

My father. He's definitely a leftist, and he raised three conservative sons. We have conveersations all the time about our differing systems.

what is the legislative agenda of the Republican party from your point of view as a common voter?

Normally, I'd say that the difference between the elected parties was minimal. However, with the sprint the Left has made towards the EXTREME, a lot of things have become glaringly different. The platform itself is about less govt. intervention in everyday life. More of a belief that individual is better suited to solve their own problems than a single govt solution will work for all.

What laws, specifically laws, would you like to see passed?

Mostly, I'd like to see laws removed. The Dept's of Education and quite a few others have done more harm to this country than non-intervention by the government EVER would have...by a HUGE factor. Metaphorically, we've hired the USPS to solve our problems. It's only funny if you don't think about it.

What are the big priorities that can be addressed by laws.

Government bloat. The bureacracy is the single biggest employer in the US by loads.
We need to remove loads of laws that were federalized and leave them to the states.
Recognize abortion as criminal.
ACT against slavery, which means closing the borders while leaving entry points open for 'legal' immigration.
Term limits for all federally elected personnel.
Do some serious trust busting in this country. Too many corporations have WAY too much power.

I don't think "cancel culture" is something that the United States Congress can really do much about.

Actually, it really can. The internet has become the public square. Need to remove protections from any and all gathering places. (ie. facebook, twitter, etc...) These are the main culprits of the cancel culture.

What would your highest legislative priorities be?

Shrink federal govt, close borders, ensure essential rights are maintained across all platforms, ensure essential rights

I'd like to hear about what you as a conservative think about immigration in terms of general philosophy rather than as a specific question about border security or what to do with people here illegally or any of that.

Nobody on the conservative side except for the very extreme is against immigration. We are heavily against Illegal Immigration. This country had no problem closing its borders in the past in order to allow those who already arrived time to assimilate to the idea of freedom. Many immigrants come here to gain freedom, but don't know what it means to be free or the obligations of freedom. This is something this country really needs to have happen once we get settled a bit.

"why can't we convince conservatives of X; don't they see it would be in their own self-interest". So what's the reverse? What are the issues that conservatives see where you think leftists are absolutely screwing themselves, where it would be way more in their personal self-interest to follow the conservative policies because it would help them live happier, healthier, safer lives?

The biggest difference between the Left and Conservatives is how they make choices. EVERY single leftist I've ever met decided what's right based on how it makes them feel. It doesn't have anything to do with whether that choice is correct or even if it solves the problem being addressed. Conservatives tend to base a lot of their decision making on logic and lessons learned.



That was a lot, and took me a while since I'm at work. Your post deserved a response though.

Feel free to ask more if you like.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Welcome

That is, no right wing media articles trying to patiently explain, "This is what leftists think and why, and here's how you can reach out to leftists in your life to try and find common ground. They're good people, just like you, they only have a different view of some things. Etc." Do you feel like that's incorrect and that there's a lot of work done by the right to reach out and try to talk to the left?

First, there are no right wing media articles talking about that because there is no big right wing media outlets anymore. Even Fox news has been converged and is just another mouthpiece. For the most part, right wing discussion has moved to small message boards, social media circles, and blogs.

We don't really talk about "how to reach out to Lefitsts"; we've accepted them as a lost cause and won't waste our time. You can't reason with the death cult. (Not a malicious term aimed you; but a generalization of their mindset). Best thing we can do is have big families and raise our children right and hope that eventually we will outbreed them.

2. This one is American politics centered. On a federal level especially (though answer for other government levels if you like), what is the legislative agenda of the Republican party from your point of view as a common voter?

I've long since realized that Republicans don't represent me. Conservatives conserve what was acceptable 10 years ago. In 2031, they will be trying to conserve what was acceptable today. We don't want to convserve anything. We want to what is good and moving our culture there.

Also, conservatives have shown that they care more about money and taking bribes from lobbyists then they care about doing what is right.

What laws, specifically laws, would you like to see passed?

Laws are useless unless they are actually enforced. Here in my state, the police don't even enforce basic laws such as checking the citizenship of voters. The government regularly breaks the law to "punish" dissenters, knowing that the people don't have enough money to sue the government and that the courts would protect the government anyway. We don't need laws to be passed. We need to entire system - and the culture of America - turned upside down. But that will never happen.

3. I see conservative arguments about immigration often get framed as an economic issue. Low skill immigrants driving down wages for low wage American workers. Immigrants taking too much money from the social safety net. But is it really just about the money? If you saw a convincing economic study that immigrants made the local community wealthier on net after, say, ten years of investment would you change your mind?

I live in a state that is being swamped with illegal immigrants. When you can't even speak the same language as your next door neighbor, you have a big problem. There are huge homeless camps - many of whom are American citizens - who can't get a job and get off the streets because some foreigner came and took it. Picking oranges or picking up trash along the highway in 100 F heat is fucking awful but at least it would be an opportunity to get SOME money, and many American Citizens don't even have the opportunity to do that.

What about people coming into America to work and then leaving?

H1B Visas is modern slavery. Someone immigrates to America and is paid way below their skillset and basically can't quit their job without being deported. Those Indian tech workers in the Orange County and Silicon Valley areas are basically Irish indentured servants. Oh, and they're living in one of the most expensive places on Earth. They'd be almost certainly better off having just stayed in India. Their ass they wouldn't be slaving for a job 10 hours a day in an alien country where they can hardly talk to anybody and are barely making enough money after all of the bills are paid.

I think immigration is an outdated concept. It existed for a time when America had bountiful untapped resources and there was more than enough for everyone. That was over a hundred years ago. Right now there are more empty houses owned by banks and trusts than there are homeless American citizens. The government's number 1. priority is to its own people. If the government can't even service its own people, then it has no business allowing foreigners in and giving them special treatment over American citizens. Unfortunately, the American government is in bed with megacorporations.

Not going to get into the nitty gritty details of policymaking but I guess that covers my broad strokes responses

 

[FebruaryStation]

I'd like to advise that you take a look at a bit more of the board than just the political section. Read a few stories, comment on a few artworks, maybe participate in a quest or two. This will give you two advantages for your stated goals:

I'll see what I can do.

In your second question (I declined to cover it because I did not feel my answers would be useful to help you understand anything) you brought up an emphasis on law. At the very least, you've got a partial answer, illegal immigrants by definition are lawbreakers while legal immigrants are not. One can extrapolate, rightly or wrongly, that therefore illegal immigrants are more likely to be criminals than legals because they started from a position of performing an unlawful act.

I have often thought in my heart that if I were born outside the United States and saw a chance for a better life for myself inside it, I would illegally immigrate without hesitation if I saw a way I could get away with it. I wouldn't feel in the least bad about it either. For that matter, though it's never likely to be the case, I would absolutely break immigration laws to get to some other country in my current life if I thought it was advantageous. Immigration laws don't have any moral weight in my heart. I wouldn't feel like I was doing anything bad.

That's neither here nor there, it's just something I felt like sharing.

You are correct, and... thinking like a leftist. "What can the government do for me?" is an inherently leftist position. The conservative viewpoint is that the government should stay out of the way and let the people do things themselves. The advantage they perceive is freedom, not "Big Brother did X for me." The freedom to pick whatever school you want rather than have to go through government-approved-only options, the freedom to start your own business, with blackjack and hookers, rather than big tech closing ranks to prevent competition and big banking cutting off payment options to ensure your business dies and their cabal thrives, the freedom to speak your mind. At the same time there would be competition. Yes, competition with you from other people, but also more business, and smaller ones, competing for your dollars, your attention, and your energy at all levels rather than a few megacorporations who don't care about you because you have no choice in where else to go anyway.

It's true, competition-based answers are a very hard sell to convince me personally that I would benefit. I guess that's thinking like a leftist, but it seems much more straightforward.

If the government does something for me, then I get the thing. Or if it enacts a policy towards a goal I agree with, then hopefully we move towards that thing I agree with. Freedom-based polices always feel to me more like a bankshot. Maybe I'll get the advantages of that freedom and maybe I won't, but there's always at least one more step involved. If I start a business, then... If competition causes companies to fight with each other over my business, then hopefully...

Not that you're under any obligation to sell anything to me. I started the thread. I was just wondering if there was a more direct sales pitch for "here's the good shit these conservative policies will get for you".

Thanks again!