Yeah, I mean, it's not like we've already seen them do this to other countries or anything...
Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread
- Thread starter Husky_Khan
- Start date
Completely predictable - Germany is effectively declaring uncomfortable neutrality on the matter due to being in an unfortunately vulnerable position not shared nearly as much by any western country regarding their energy sector, in which they are due to their irrational energy policy that they volunteered to have under the pressure of domestic environmentalist politicians.
The thing about the so-called "doublethink." Everyone seems in agreement that Russian troops are massing on the border. The issue discussed here isn't even whether Russia is going to invade or not. The primary issue is what the West/US should do in regards to Russian Posturing or an Invasion of Ukraine.
Like History Learner, Zachowon, Bacle and Marduk were arguing things earlier. They all seemed in agreement over Russian building up forces around Ukraine and posturing for an Invasion even if it may never come but the differences was whether Ukraine was worth defending and to what degree.
I don't think anyone is in denial over the Russian buildup or Posturing in Regards to Ukraine. Unlike the differences regarding Russiagate and the Intelligence Allegations against Donald Trump. At best you could argue the mainstream media is 'inflaming' the Ukraine story like it was Russiagate, but I just... don't see it? It's a big news story, but it's barely part of any conversation I've seen because domestic issues are still taking precedence. Like last week the main stories were the Winter Storms, 5G at Airports (wtf?), January 6th, Catholic Child Abuse and more Omicronning. It wasn't until Friday it became a lead story on some of the major network shows.
I'm glad you did say it's common to all of humanity though.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
The point is that Russia originally triggered the buildup as response to Ukrainian preparations to restart large scale fighting in Donbass. If the Ukraine resumed large scale fighting the Russian response would not be the full scale invasion that media and political mouthbreathers crow about, but a limited operation in Donbass (similar to Ilovaisk battle, but with more organic support), they do not have political will or strategic capabilities for a large scale occupation operations and they know it and so do Pentagon and State Department, but they initiated media hysteria anyway, seemingly with intention to prevent deescalation (like in previous invasion scares) and push Ukraine and Russia into open fighting instead. Basically, they they want this to be the big story overshadowing all others and that's why the pressure will keep going up. After all, Ukrainian lives are cheap.
It plays well with neocons of the Republican party though, who would be willing trade their support on domestic issues in exchange for President confronting Russia. Donors and lobbyists carry lot more weight than voters.
Excellent analysis, Marduk!
No, i have no idea where you got that scenario, but what happened in reality was much more radical and questionable.
Euromaidan - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Russia wasn't telling them anything. Russia didn't even react to any move Ukraine has already made. Russia has instituted a straight out embargo on Ukraine for merely thinking of it and preparing for it.Russian embargo of Ukrainian goods - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I don't think embargo is how just random neutral countries that don't have a customs union normally treat each other. In reality it is a pretty damn hostile move.
Russia also did not list legal conflict between the rules of customs union and yet non-existent Ukraine-EU agreement as the motivation for the embargo, you can read what justifications (usual ones for when Russia wants to slap countries but not openly say why) they used in the second article.
Interestingly enough, in spite of Ukraine's EU Association Agreement, Ukraine continues to have free trade with all other CIS member states other than Russia, I think:
"Agreements between Ukraine and other EEU states within the free trade area remain in effect."
In what way? The threat? The Invasion? The outcomes?
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Biden is a weak moron but even he is not dumb enough to start a war with Russia, mess up the economic situation in Europe, piss off Germany and France further and make the current stagflation even worse.
Well, maybe he is, but some of his handlers have two brain cells to rub together.
Even in the best case scenario, IMHO the USA and the West in general will get hit with lots of long term damage and China will just steamroll over them after they are weakened.
Militarily they wont. I can assure you
But we arent talking strictly military here. Both economies and politics tie in as well. And what use is stopping Russia now when we aren't obligated too and furthermore when. it will make us weak to China down the road?
China is our long-term enemy here not Russia which is only a short term one.
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How do you know that Ukraine was stupid enough to plan to restart its war in the Donbass right now?
Why isn't Russia a long-term enemy of ours?
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
"Give me control over a country's money and I care not who makes its laws."
Chinese are actually very, very materialistic, and probably understand how the Blob works far better than any other one of the USA's enemies, after all they did invent the term 'Mandarin'.
They have infiltrated your banks and other corpos already, and a lot of your companies can't function without their aid, others, like Apple, are massively involved in China, with it accounting for about 15% of total iCrap sales.
Also:
Please find your senses and stop making me agree with The Hill!
I mean there were attempts. After the end of the Cold War you get George Bush Sr. being all chill and low key like "That's nice," when the Soviet Union was falling apart instead of celebrating with a victory parade. Even got the Russians to support the actions of the UN in the Persian Gulf War. Then you had all of the random shit that occurred during the Clinton years and somehow relations soured towards the end of that with the focus on the economic reform instead of judicial and political reform as stated earlier. But even back in the 90's, there was such a magical time where there was even discussion of bringing Russia into NATO someday.... ahhhh the 90's, so magical!
But then George W. Bush in 2000 saw into the eyes of Putin and it looked like we'd have another attempt at reapproachment after the Clinton years. Naaaahhhhhh. Then Obama in 2008 came in with the "Reset Button" and policy of making no Foreign Policy Blunders.... didn't work. Then in 2012 he told Medvedev that they'd be able to work together more when Obama didn't have to face re-election and it was caught on a hot mic. Nope... not gonna happen. Then Trump comes in and he's so friendly with Putin supposedly that we have to endure the idiocy of "RussiaGate" for five years. And now... well Biden didn't even bother with the traditional custom of publicly making some ritual statement of Russian Reapproachment.
But yeah, I can see why China is seen as a more long term threat then Russia. They have a far stronger and more diversified economy and its been consistently growing and while Russia can be a threat (obviously it has lots of nuclear weapons) in most other measures it seems that China surpasses it as a threat in more ways then straight militarily. Plus there's always been pushes in Europe and America over closer ties with Russia or "bringing them closer to the West" and the like ranging from the political Left and the Right.
That was already tried with China, trying to draw them in by inserting them into the world economy but it only liberalized their largely nationalized economy and didn't seem to help with the whole political and social reforms that were somehow hoped to come in. Plus the Chinese threat is typically seen as more then just who the Premier is, while with Russia it's largely focused on Vladimir Putin and he won't be in charge forever... probably.
Because in the long term their economy will never match or meet the U.S.'s which along with China seems to be ever growing and the whole thing in Ukraine is making them lose what soft power they had.
Sure, they still have a good military and resources, but beyond Ukraine its useless without small states to commit land grabs against.
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Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
The US promised that NATO expansion would stop and that a unified Germany will not be part of it - lie.
The US sided with Kosovo and damaged Serbia, a close Russian ally.
The US pushed for more economic liberalism in Russia and kept Yeltsin aloft.
The US destabilized the world with numerous useless interventions.
The US invaded Iraq, destabilized Syria, Libya(Countries with closer ties to Russia than the west) and Egypt(Egyptians elected a religious fanatic as president, then the US interfered again, because democracy is only democracy when the US likes the outcome), and even allied itself with AQ, you know, those terrorists behind 9/11 adn created ISIS.
Some in Russia also blame various islamist insurgencies within the former USSR on the Americans and their good allies, the Turks and the Saudis.
The US has supported various fringe morons within Russia and within Russian allies that want to oust the current leadership and in the view of the Russians bring back the bad old days of the 90s.
Yeah I heard you the first ten times you said it in this thread lol.
I was merely answering Wolfbear's question as to why Russia is seen as a short term enemy compared to China.