Rejectionist Alternate History Idea Novel

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Would the Karabinek-granatnik wz.1960 still exist in this Poland EVEN IF it got rid of Soviet presence and influence in 1956 ? I
you guys know of any Polish variant or other military stuff before 1956 or slightly after please let me know!

To answer the main question, yes. Why not? AK in Poland is already the basic equipment of the army, why throw an already proven idea in the trash? Especially since interchangeable ammunition with the enemy is an advantage in this case. A rifle firing cap grenades is just a natural evolution. Such an introduction before more serious attempts to modify the AK.


As for the second question, unfortunately there are not many Polish toys from before 1956. Back then the LWP was a mini-Red Army from World War II. It wasn't until the 1960s that something Polish started to be designed. If you already want to look for Polish prototypes then you have to pull them from what was OTL.
 
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ATP

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FEARFUL FIFTIES


Newly sworn in President Stassen's reaction to the list was nothing short of surprising shock.


<< What is more miraculous ? That we have a list of who our now enemy has or the fact they managed to get so many ? >>


The Director of Central Intelligence who had substituted Dulles after the fiascos in Guatemala and Iran, Charles Pearre Cabell, was cautiously proud of the list. Twenty agents died for this little information.


<< The information however >> noted Stassen << is of little use to us, except give us motivation to make Congress see we need a proper budget to bridge the gap ! >>


Everybody agreed on it and a draft was made to ask Congress for a billion dollars or slightly less to be given to the newborn American space program, as well as the Central Intelligence Agency, with Cabell being encouraged to draw plans for infiltration into the Soviet Union. He probably knew what those plans would be. “Hiring as contractors former Wehrmact and Schutzstaffel. As well as their Eastern European Quislings!” and he would be proven right later on.


Someone knocked on the door :


<< President Stassen ? >>

His secretary.

<< Yes ? >>

It was his secretary.

<< Attorney General Thomas Dewey is here to see you >>

<< Let him in >>

Dewey was visibly stressed and it looked he was containing an outburst as furious as righteous :

<< Mister President, remember when you and Eisenhower asked me, before the election, to look into Fidel Castro’s opponents here and there in Cuba ? >>

<< I do. What can you tell me ? >>

<< Simply put…it is an excrement show ! >>

Stassen remained silently puzzled :

<< President Stassen, many of them in question are connected with big corporations, organized crimes or even worse, both ! >>

<< Any examples ? >>

<< Meyer Lansky of the National Crime Syndicate; he is “upset” because the Cuban government coalition of Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement has nationalized not only his hotel-casinos but and can be operated only by Cuban with gambling’s going to the general and with the proof the Cuban president has given Eisenhower during his visit here a couple of months ago, I have enough evidence to jail him. It …infuriates me…that lobbyists, criminals and congressmen ask us to… “do something” to protect alleged American interests!>>


<< You may proceed as you wish with no strings attached Dewey. Many call to suspend them from Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance but I rather not, they are in our garden and neighbors and certainly do not wish to scare them into going into the Soviet’s arms because some gangster or crooked company lost their treasures. >>


<< Thanks Har…mister President >>


Asking him to become Attorney General was perhaps the best choice. He will clean up the streets, thought the now president.

But now he had more pressing matters : meeting with the new Italian and Polish ambassadors.


Soon as the Tadeusz Bielecki’s government had begun reprivatization, with all seized property whose owners did not collaborate with either Nazi Germany or the USSR and were alive going back to them such as candy company E.Wendel, who was returned to its pre-war owner Jan Wendel, followed by a program of reclamation of estates by the landed gentry, one of the first of this operation was the last private owner of Zywiec Polish brewery as well as his Zywiec estates , former archduke Karol Albert Habsbursko-Lotaryński , reclaimed by his son Karol Stefan Maksymilian Ferdynand Narcyz Maria Habsbursko – Lotaryński due to his father psycho-physical condition being abysmal since he had taken refuge in Sweden due to the torture by Nazi occupiers.

a program of total militarization which projected an estimate of 400 thousand active soldiers and it was speculated they wanted to achieve one million or more in a decade while at the same time they were planning for having a sizeable air force and a fleet (hopefully for them) to be able to carve out a seapath in case of war with the Comintern, because it bordered only two friendly neighbors : the restored Czechoslovak Republic and the Kingdom of Hungary, the latter who still had disputes over Őrvidék ( Burgenland ) with the Germans and Kárpátalja (Zakarpatska) with the Soviet Union and would be of little help if push come to shove; they were also in the talks to acquire Ambrosini Sagittario and the

Captain Stefan Kenneth Janson (born Kazimierz Stefan Januszewski) was a Polish-born British firearms designer who worked for RSAF Enfield. One of a number of Polish immigrants who worked for RSAF Enfiel



Kryptę


@USSEssex @RazNaRok @kekw3 @Matej I am writing an alternate history, part of this story is most of central Europe never being liberated by the Soviets and Poland freeing itself after a brutal repression. I tagged you guys because I have no insight or personal acquaintance that can help with speculating military projects of Central Europe. What do you guys so far ?

I haven’t written anything on Czechoslovakia because the point of divergence is in 1948 and imagining the story of a country when it’s that soon the “change” is rather difficult since I lack the context



THE SCORNFUL SIXTIES


In the aftermath of the Second World War, the Anglo-French Empires had fallen into severe debt and supposedly weren’t able to manage to keep it. However, they were kept on life support thanks to the Eisenhower-Stassen administrations since both presidents were vehemently opposed to upset (yet)the balance of power and buffer the European hegemonies offered, but there were some issues which were delicate.

The first the two nations of the Low Countries , the Netherlands and Belgium, the first had seen its jewel of the empire, the Dutch East Indies, going independent and it sat in exile in the newborn “Kingdom of Suriname, Antilles and New Guinea” , basically a Dutch speaking Anglo-Franco-American co-dominium of sorts in all but name meanwhile the second was in a more precarious position with its “only” “territory” being the Belgian Congo, with discussions of an “union” with the BGIE (Belgian Government In Exile), which come into fruition after many concessions were made to minor independence leaders, the European settlers and exiles and the various Belgian companies, with the compromise of an United Nations supervision, with Baudoin as Sovereign King-Regent of Congo and Ruanda-Urundi, gaining the utter resentment of the Congolese population, who were dealt as swiftly as possible by Belgium's prime collaborateur, newly appointed Defence Minister Joseph-Désiré Mobutu, personally seeking to it and crushing with the help of foreign mercenaries and the Force Publique swelling with former German veterans, raising many concerns with neighboring Portugal and the United Kingdom for that. Stassen, again, wanted to keep the equilibrium but did so with grinned teeth and clenched fists as he would become more worried with the homefront due to the simple fact that the Lukewarm War had essentially become a sitting “tech” war where he and Mikoyan would menacingly stare at each other but except the Soviet First Secretary announcing support for Indonesia and supplying Jakarta with large amounts of modern and Great Patriotic War leftover weaponry, nothing was done , unless someone counts Rome’s 1960 Summer Olympics (Italian: Giochi Olimpici estivi del 1960) and the following Winter Olympics of the same year as geopolitical clashes between the two blocs, with the Soviet Union coming ahead of the United States, as it wasn’t enough boxer and gold medal winner Cassius Clay (later to be known as Muhammah Ali) used the occasion to spoke against the racial injustices occurring in his country, because there were still tensions arising between Black and White Americans, who were left head scratching with the Republican president due to his support for Civil Rights but at the same time supporting the (mainly) Anglo-French colonial territories around the world, just as when it backed British support for a secessionist movement in Natal after the former Union of South Africa had turned into a republic through referendum ; it didn’t make it easier Stassen had a serious problems when first the United States was technologically humiliated the next year with the first human orbital spaceflight in history of the Vostok 1 by Soviet cosmonaut Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin on 12 April 1961 and then on May 14th 1961 Freedom Riders were burned alive at the outskirts of Anniston, Alabama and race riots broke out around the nation and the National Guard had to be deployed in several states but especially the Deep South as the widespread violence engulfed those areas, with massive retaliations on both sides and pushing “Stassenite'' Republicans further into the Civil Rights camp and making the Democrats furtherly reactionary for the time being, albeit with few notable exceptions such as John Fitzgerald Kennedy and (privately) George Armistead Smathers; it wouldn't be until November, just after the Ole Miss riots, that the situation would calm down, however another problem arose : the attempted invasion of Goa by Boseist India. Subhas Chandra Bose had made it clear since he had “liberated” most of India from the British but was still as zealous for a total ouster of European forces from the subcontinent and that included the Portuguese, who had stood idle in their neutrality in World War II; the Netaji thought the United States and the PACCATO alliance would dare intervene for the small Lusitanian enclaves, but when the Lisbon government invoked Article 5 it was a very short (mostly aero-naval) war where the USSR brokered a ceasefire by sheer nuclear menace, with the United States and Portugal meeting in Rome, Italy with Indian representatives, where a “peace” was strong armed to Bose in December 1962 who had to accept in perpetuity the Portuguese presence, in turn bringing India closer to the USSR, which was having problem of its own, because approximately twenty percent of the German population had fled (and similar figures were being reported in the Beneluxian puppet state) so the COMINTERN solution consisted in the building a 1143 kilometer series of border walls, officially with the justification of “defensive structuralization and construction against potential capitalist oppressive aggression”.

Stassen watched in shock together with his PACCATO partner-collegue when it was being noticed when they were building walls in the Italian-German border and the Danish-German border as well and rapidly so. The Iron Curtain was going up and had enclosed the Low Countries and Germany into total isolation safe from COMINTERN allies.

Many newspapers both domestic and foreign domestic, safe for France, criticized the U.S. president for its inaction but as his supporters and public relations department pointed out to his critics : “do you rather be comfortable, fed and healthy or you do want to be the exact contrary in order to stop the construction of a Communist wall?” implying the theory of mutually assured destruction if they challenged Premier Mikoyan over the construction of the wall.


I will probably had bigger fish to fry.


He did in fact.


In March 1963, retired US Marine Lee Harvey Oswald used the alias "A. Hidell" to make a mail-order purchase of a secondhand 6.5 mm caliber Carcano rifle for $29.9 and had purchased a .38 Smith & Wesson Model 10 revolver with the same method, both of which were used to kill retired U.S. Major General Edwin Walker, on April 10, 1963 as Walker sat at a desk in his Dallas home.

The case felt like a tinderbox, because the John Birch Society immediately accused the US government of allowing the murder of a patriot to happen on American sovereign soil while on the other hand many organization Civil Rights activists tried to appease public opinion by divulging Walker’s reputation as an outspoken segregationist, who had been relieved of his command of the 24th Division of the U.S. Army in the Saar Protectorate for distributing right-wing literature to his troops and who was arrested on insurrection, seditious conspiracy, and other charges and temporarily held in a mental institution on orders of Attorney General Dewey.

Demonstrations and riots started almost immediately and Lee Harvey Oswald was postponed multiple times due to continuously growing tensions and if having internal instability wasn’t enough, the Lukewarm War was about to witness its first tumultuous period, with the homefront being rocked on September 15, 1963 when white supremacist terrorists bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church of Birmingham, Alabama, killing dozens and injuring hundreds


Sukarno’s Indonesia had started a campaign of infiltration against Malaysia, Singapore,Brunei and the Dutch exiles’ Territory of New Guinea with support from the People’s Republic of (North West) China, the Soviet Union and other COMINTERN countries in logistics, supplies and “volunteers”, with many Indonesian “battalions” were entirely made up of Norwegians, Baltics, Beneluxians, Germans, Soviets and Chinese. Stassen, despite his own and his government reservations, drafted many young boys into the Army and unfortunately, as he had predicted, did not ease tensions, but at least he showed he wasn’t “a pinko or a softie on Communism”

The Soviet Union, to support Sukarno and his Communist proxies and him initiated the month 1963 with the Moskalyov DSB-LK long-range supersonic strategic bomber over the Strait of Malacca just as they were sending tonnes both leftover and new weapons from the Democratic Republic of Germany and the People’s Republic of Benelux, consecutively Stassen followed this move

by authorizing the usage of

with more investment on research, defense and education to “one up” Moscow, unfortunately this included, due to the influence of both Republican and Democrat McCarthyites to send military advisors to Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei,Australia, New Zealand and Canada which in turn turned into also to send economic financial investment to those countries, as the drafted military “advisors” continued to exponentially increase as the months went by the liberal Republican president did not wish for an actual escalated intervention but at some point

While the liberal faction of the Republican faction was firmly cemented, the conservative side of Stassen’s party wasn’t totally satisfied and issued a veiled threat of siding with the Democrats in the last year if he wouldn’t concede on a Conservative Republican ticket in the upcoming 1964 election. While initially opposed to this threatening proposal, Harold Stassen the soon to be ex President agreed on supporting Goldwater with the compromise they would accept Rockfeller as VP.







NOTE : This a very SPECULATIVE part of mine due to time constraints, university schedules and lack of monetary resources as well as access to sources that are either in the four languages I know.


1968 :



Many people asked how the Soviet Union had managed to reach the moon before the United States, the allegedly greatest country of the world ; many would point out of the almost complete success of Operation Osoaviakhim over two decades which resulted in the USSR acquiring many German experts that did marginally accelerate the progress in many fields of science

Aleksandr Ignatyevich Shargey (1) was a Soviet Ukranian engineer,theoretician, mathematician, Great Patrioc War veteran and visionary pioneer of astronautics and spaceflight in the early 20th century, who developed the first known lunar orbit rendezvous (LOR).

Initially he was just an advisor on the Sputnik 1 program but several sources credit his wise insight to having contributed to making the satellite a reality much earlier than it was predicted initially. It is speculated he would have been involved in the VOSTOK 1 program as well but it is unclear why he wasn’t ; however a year later he was called for a secret meeting between him and Mikoyan who wanted him to report on the space programs of the USSR and when informed of them, Shargey replied :


<< Comrade Premier Mikoyan, why do we have space programs and not a space program ? >>


<< What do you mean, comrade Shargey? >>


<< It seems at first glance from you are referring to me of a situation where’s the lack of coordination and waste of resources, but I should verify in person before making any definitive conclusion >>


In his personal diaries Shargey reported he expected a Stalinist response from Mikoyan and that he would end up in a gulag (again) at best or shot in the head for pointing out an obvious flaw in the Soviet system, but “luckily for me, Mikoyan wasn’t as intransigent as his predecessor and wanted results, as long as said result didn’t compromised him publicly, in front of the Party or both.”


<< I want you to make a report on our space programs… if your conclusion does coincide with what you just said, we might have more to discuss >>


Aleksandr Ignatyevich Shargey was put to work immediately the next day and secretly “toured” the various programs with Artyom Ivanovich Mikoyan, the brother of the premier, who believed the space programs could also give contributions to his “sector” as well.


When he returned to the Premier’s office, not only he had proof of what he had said previously but also that uselessly competing and bickering against one another and that “no amount of help, money or German experts would get us further… the capitalist United States will humiliate us in less than a decade unless something is done”. Mikoyan had Valentin Glushko, Mikhail Yangel, Vladimir Chelomei and Sergei Korolev convened in his office and they were submissively scolded into collaborating rather “wrecking” each other and they would be under Shargey’s supervision. The Osvobozhdeniye program, the unified space program, would be started immediately.

Aleksandr Ignatyevich Shargey correctly predicted they could tail the United States’ program and successfully precede them in the “liberation of space” if the program was well funded and the resources located where they needed to be; Shargey, despite being Jewish, was also more of a pragmatist and realist compared to the colleagues who were subordinated to him and noticed there were some gaps in the Soviet research and with “heavy heart” recruited a former member of the Nazi Party and Allgemeine SS aerospace engineer and space architect Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun as an “assistant collaborator on the Osvobozhdeniye program”; later, when the moon landing successfully went through and the cosmonaut team safely re-entered Earth, the German ex-Nazi was awarded both in the Soviet Union and his home country and used as a propaganda tool for the COMINTERN to prove that Communism could redeem the humanity of a former despicable individual.


The display of scientific advancement shocked and demoralized the United States and its allies, dooming Goldwater’s chances of re-election who would resign a week after the launch, leaving his office to Rockefeller.


  1. OTL Yuri Vasilyevich Kondratyuk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Kondratyuk in our world he died/disappeared in 1942 during WW2


Good TL,but i have few questions:
1.Was Missile gap real this time? becouse in OTL it was bullshit.

2.Soviets with better coordination and von Braun could not only go to Moon,but also Mars - but,in second case,when von Braun was sure that his rocket would go to Mars,he was not so sure if astronauts manage to return safely.
There was also some german who planned to bulid space plane named Thor.Sanger, i think.
It would be less costly then rocket for low orbits,becouse could be re-used many times.

3.Dutch and belgians with their exiled states - plausible.

4.Poland would not buy from USA,but Sweden - and,rather buy some and produce in country,just like before WW2.
They would certainly not want die for England again.

5.India - they were pro-soviet OTL,so notching change.

All in all,Strassen here look like Richelieu ,who persecuted protestand in his country,but supported in HRE.
Here Strassen is persecutting racists in USA,and support in Africa.
 
Answers

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Good TL,but i have few questions:
1.Was Missile gap real this time? becouse in OTL it was bullshit.

2.Soviets with better coordination and von Braun could not only go to Moon,but also Mars - but,in second case,when von Braun was sure that his rocket would go to Mars,he was not so sure if astronauts manage to return safely.
There was also some german who planned to bulid space plane named Thor.Sanger, i think.
It would be less costly then rocket for low orbits,becouse could be re-used many times.

3.Dutch and belgians with their exiled states - plausible.

4.Poland would not buy from USA,but Sweden - and,rather buy some and produce in country,just like before WW2.
They would certainly not want die for England again.

5.India - they were pro-soviet OTL,so notching change.

All in all,Strassen here look like Richelieu ,who persecuted protestand in his country,but supported in HRE.
Here Strassen is persecutting racists in USA,and support in Africa.

  1. I don't think with Mikoyan there would be a push for spending money and resources into furthering the gap or make appear to believe so. So probably the American still believe it until OTL or just later. So yes it is still bullshit.
  2. I don't think the Soviets would get further than the Moon.
  3. There isn't much where they can go and I was inspired for Belgium by a verbal proposal of uniting Congo and Belgium that did happen in our world, of course it was never carried out in the first place.
  4. Who the fucks would want to die for perfidious and treacherous Albion?
  5. Yes but it happens MUCH later.
 
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A little Idea I had

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Small idea I had that I might make in the future, honestly making this alternate history is already a complicated mess. I think once I put an end to it this timeline would be the last timeline I make after Roter Rhein.


Stalin’s twenty-sixth year of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republican Union was proceeding smoothly despite the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union mumbling to himself overthinking about his ongoing putsch against Tito. When Beria reported that the Yugoslav Chief of the General Staff with Colonel General Arso Jovanović, Major General Branko Petričević Kadja and Colonel Vladimir Dapčević had succeeded in removing and killing Tito, the Red Tsar called a meeting to celebrate , officially at least , the centralization of the RSFSRU, but in reality it was for the successful regime change. However, to mantain further secrecy, the first part of the meeting was dedicated to the commeration of the centralization, when Lenin "caved in" to Stalin's proposal of an united Russo-centric federation of "equals", but it did not take long for the subject to be changed into a discussion on the coup in Yugoslavia. Stalin said that, in hindsight, it was a bad idea to give Tito's Yugoslavia the go-ahead to merge Albania and Bulgaria into his country since he almost led Moscow and the rest of the liberated people's republic into a war with the West, who was more than happy to extend the Free Territory of Trieste to include Fiume, the whole Dalmatia and the Yugoslav Adriatic Islands after the brief border conflict he caused because he had decided to shoot down an United States plane.
 

ATP

Well-known member
  1. I don't think with Mikoyan there would be a push for spending money and resources into furthering the gap or make appear to believe so. So probably the American still believe it until OTL or just later. So yes it is still bullshit.
  2. I don't think the Soviets would get further than the Moon.
  3. There isn't much where they can go and I was inspired for Belgium by a verbal proposal of uniting Congo and Belgium that did happen in our world, of course it was never carried out in the first place.
  4. Who the fucks would want to die for perfidious and treacherous Albion?
  5. Yes but it happens MUCH later.
1.Smart dude.
2.Again,smart dude.But if they pretend otherwise,USA would waste money on it,and imagine how their prestige collapse when their astronauts die on Mars!.
3.Well,better for Congo then OTL.And...maybe they found dinosaurs there? i think,that at least till 1900 they really existed there - becouse since then or even later hunters who never go to school recognized some of dinos as their prey.
4.Stupid poles again? in 1939 we died for them.But,this time,at least as long as nationalists would rule,that not happen.
5.But still happened.So - notching change in long run.Except better living for Goa inhabitants - they really lived better then in India.

Small idea I had that I might make in the future, honestly making this alternate history is already a complicated mess. I think once I put an end to it this timeline would be the last timeline I make after Roter Rhein.

Well,Sralin was planning attack on Europe probably before 1956,so.....
Now he could do that after faking being friendly?
 
ROCKFELLER AS PREZ & GOLDWATER AS VP

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
I did read your statement on Goldwater...but what about if he was VP as a token concession to the Conservative faction of the Republicans? Then when Rockefeller hits rock bottom and resigns (who wouldn't after loosing the space race?) Goldwater is President until of January.

So it will become :

"SCREW ROCKY AND BARRY THE JEW TOO"

Thinking about it. I haven't written anything about Israel. Or the Nazis that fled the onslaught of the USSR. Rodzaesky the (actual) fascist Russian is still alive along with Philonazis too like the memey Taboritsky from HOI4 TNO mod.

Problem is even having visited Israel I have no idea what it could happen.

Because its neighbors are Greater Syria and Egypt are both monarchies , with the first being pan-Syrian rather than pan-Arab and the second a badly run kingdom. No Arab nationalist hold any power.

I thought about Islamists but I have seen ANY indication the Muslim Brotherhood tried to take-over during the Coldwar except Syria in the 1980s. Not to mention that the SSNP all shtick was/is mandatory progressive secularist Pan-Syrianism.

@Circle of Willis any thoughts ?
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
I did read your statement on Goldwater...but what about if he was VP as a token concession to the Conservative faction of the Republicans? Then when Rockefeller hits rock bottom and resigns (who wouldn't after loosing the space race?) Goldwater is President until of January.

So it will become :

"SCREW ROCKY AND BARRY THE JEW TOO"

Thinking about it. I haven't written anything about Israel. Or the Nazis that fled the onslaught of the USSR. Rodzaesky the (actual) fascist Russian is still alive along with Philonazis too like the memey Taboritsky from HOI4 TNO mod.

Problem is even having visited Israel I have no idea what it could happen.

Because its neighbors are Greater Syria and Egypt are both monarchies , with the first being pan-Syrian rather than pan-Arab and the second a badly run kingdom. No Arab nationalist hold any power.

I thought about Islamists but I have seen ANY indication the Muslim Brotherhood tried to take-over during the Coldwar except Syria in the 1980s. Not to mention that the SSNP all shtick was/is mandatory progressive secularist Pan-Syrianism.

@Circle of Willis any thoughts ?
That's an interesting idea, actually! It kinda makes Goldwater a conservative version of Teddy Roosevelt, in the same way that nobody really expected the latter (a progressive Republican) to be anything more than a talking ornament for the guy who was supposed to be calling the shots (conservative Republican McKinley) until that boss unexpectedly got taken out of the picture one way or another. Although I assume Goldwater will get to enjoy far less time & make less of an impact in the presidential office than Roosevelt did, given the circumstances.

Well with more Nazis and Nazi-adjacents running around, maybe Israel would sponsor more and higher-profile efforts at Nazi-hunting by the likes of Simon Wiesenthal ITL? I've gotta admit I'm not an expert on that subject though.

If you're considering an Islamist takeover somewhere I would've thought Egypt more ripe for an MB takeover, and much earlier, compared to Syria. It was the Brotherhood's birthplace & original homebase after all, and they got pretty strong there until Nasser cracked down on them for trying to assassinate him - outside branches like the Syrian one IIRC only came to rival or eclipse the original Egyptian branch due to the latter getting exiled, jailed or executed until Anwar Sadat took over. I had them take Egypt over in my Dewey TL (in rather different circumstances, the Egyptian monarchy didn't survive there as it seems they did here) but with the twist of having a veritable unicorn - a pacifist Islamist - as their leader; however there's a very obvious alternative if you want a much more, let's say conventional Islamist in charge instead, Sayyid 'Father of Modern Salafism' Qutb.
 
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TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
That's an interesting idea, actually! It kinda makes Goldwater a conservative version of Teddy Roosevelt, in the same way that nobody really expected the latter (a progressive Republican) to be anything more than a talking ornament for the guy who was supposed to be calling the shots (conservative Republican McKinley) until that boss unexpectedly got taken out of the picture one way or another. Although I assume Goldwater will get to enjoy far less time & make less of an impact in the presidential office than Roosevelt did, given the circumstances.
My focus would be for both of them to focus on international policies, but I can go only so far with wikipedia and or similar. Any suggestions for both of their presidencies or policies?
Well with more Nazis and Nazi-adjacents running around, maybe Israel would sponsor more and higher-profile efforts at Nazi-hunting by the likes of Simon Wiesenthal ITL? I've gotta admit I'm not an expert on that subject though.
I was wondering if a US backed group of Slavic Nazi collaborators could be a thing considering they hosted Stepan Bandera until it got murdered.
If you're considering an Islamist takeover somewhere I would've thought Egypt more ripe for an MB takeover, and much earlier, compared to Syria. It was the Brotherhood's birthplace & original homebase after all, and they got pretty strong there until Nasser cracked down on them for trying to assassinate him - outside branches like the Syrian one IIRC only came to rival or eclipse the original Egyptian branch due to the latter getting exiled, jailed or executed until Anwar Sadat took over. I had them take Egypt over in my Dewey TL (in rather different circumstances, the Egyptian monarchy didn't survive there as it seems they did here) but with the twist of having a veritable unicorn - a pacifist Islamist - as their leader; however there's a very obvious alternative if you want a much more, let's say conventional Islamist in charge instead, Sayyid 'Father of Modern Salafism' Qutb.
I reasoned a bit more.

Egypt and Syria are both pro-USA or Western-aligned monarchies.

So Qutb would need to be elected.

The Jordanian Hashemites are much more smarter than their neighbors save the Saudis. They wouldn't throw themselves against Israel (granted they did but Nasser is absent so why the fuck they would want to risk to fuck around to find out?). The Syrian Social Nationalist Party , a quasi-imitation of Mussolini that went FURTHER left OTL, wants a Greater Syria, but I am somewhat doubtful they would throw most of Greater Syria out of the window to just finish the Zionists in Israel or be able or willing to oust the king.
 
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Circle of Willis

Well-known member
My focus would be for both of them to focus on international policies, but I can go only so far with wikipedia and or similar. Any suggestions for both of their presidencies or policies?
Looking at Rocky's IRL record on foreign affairs, especially inter-American affairs and economic bodies such as the International Basic Economy Corporation & International Development Advisory Board, he'd be very much an internationalist favoring 'soft power' methinks. Dude was a pretty consistent advocate of foreign economic aid as a tool of American power & helpful to national security, and also apparently very interested in locking Latin America down for the US through softer means (ie. economic & diplomatic cooperation). He also tried and failed to centralize CIA operational control under the executive branch via the proposed 'Planning Coordination Group' in 1958, which was firmly rebuffed by Allen Dulles for infringing on the CIA's autonomy.

Goldwater was a staunch hawk on foreign affairs, consistently favoring 'rollback' (aggressively pushing Communism back) over 'containment', whose 1964 campaign IRL was infamously sunk by him joking about tossing a nuke into the Kremlin's bathroom and seriously advocating using tac-nukes in 'Nam. I expect he would very much be the stick to Rockefeller's carrot, and as President even if he can't go nuclear he would probably be a strong advocate of deploying hard power (CIA coups, direct military intervention) where the opportunity arises abroad.
I was wondering if a US backed group of Slavic Nazi collaborators could be a thing considering they hosted Stepan Bandera until it got murdered.
Probably never directly, certainly not under the Jewish Goldwater for obvious reasons, but maybe such figures could find themselves in organizations with less direct ties to the intel community (and which may have actually been intel fronts) like the World Anti-Communist League/World League for Freedom & Democracy, whose 'controversial participants' section already reads like a big ol' reunion for the various Axis Powers (with some Latin American death squad chiefs sprinkled in) in the decades after WW2.
I reasoned a bit more.

Egypt and Syria are both pro-USA or Western-aligned monarchies.

So Qutb would need to be elected.

The Jordanian Hashemites are much more smarter than their neighbors save the Saudis. They wouldn't throw themselves against Israel (granted they did but Nasser is absent so why the fuck they would want to risk to fuck around to find out?). The Syrian Social Nationalist Party , a quasi-imitation of Mussolini that went FURTHER left OTL, wants a Greater Syria, but I am somewhat doubtful they would throw most of Greater Syria out of the window to just finish the Zionists in Israel or be able or willing to oust the king.
Seems reasonable. The Muslim Brotherhood has generally not had a problem with using the democratic system to get elected, before going full Islamist afterward (IIRC this was why, for example, the Copts supported the military's overthrow of the MB when they did get elected IRL, after the Arab Spring). Qutb himself hated democracy and essentially supported anarcho-Islam (getting the people to be such fanatical Islamists that they'd enforce sharia on their own without need for a government) but without Nasserist repression making it obvious that the MB would never be allowed to gain power democratically in his lifetime, I think it's plausible that he takes the Erdogan approach to the democratic process instead (it being a 'tram ride' that he gets off of when it reaches its destination).

The Jordanian king basically had to be tricked by Nasser into getting tangled up with the Six-Day War, so without the latter in the picture I can't really see him taking the risk of engaging Israel in warfare, I agree. Wouldn't the SSNP be in violent opposition to any 'colonial'-supported monarchy, the same as they historically had been against Zionism? They don't seem to have shied away from attempting violent coups (even when success didn't seem all that likely, like their attempt to overthrow the Lebanese government with 200 guys in 1961) at least once in pretty much every country they had a foothold in from what I've seen, with their Wiki article bluntly describing their approach as 'bullets over ballots'.
 
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TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Looking at Rocky's IRL record on foreign affairs, especially inter-American affairs and economic bodies such as the International Basic Economy Corporation & International Development Advisory Board, he'd be very much an internationalist favoring 'soft power' methinks. Dude was a pretty consistent advocate of foreign economic aid as a tool of American power & helpful to national security, and also apparently very interested in locking Latin America down for the US through softer means (ie. economic & diplomatic cooperation). He also tried and failed to centralize CIA operational control under the executive branch via the proposed 'Planning Coordination Group' in 1958, which was firmly rebuffed by Allen Dulles for infringing on the CIA's autonomy.

Goldwater was a staunch hawk on foreign affairs, consistently favoring 'rollback' (aggressively pushing Communism back) over 'containment', whose 1964 campaign IRL was infamously sunk by him joking about tossing a nuke into the Kremlin's bathroom and seriously advocating using tac-nukes in 'Nam. I expect he would very much be the stick to Rockefeller's carrot, and as President even if he can't go nuclear he would probably be a strong advocate of deploying hard power (CIA coups, direct military intervention) where the opportunity arises abroad.
Oh god the narrative potential is great. He could get into a Vietnam-like situation.
Probably never directly, certainly not under the Jewish Goldwater for obvious reasons, but maybe such figures could find themselves in organizations with less direct ties to the intel community (and which may have actually been intel fronts) like the World Anti-Communist League/World League for Freedom & Democracy, whose 'controversial participants' section already reads like a big ol' reunion for the various Axis Powers (with some Latin American death squad chiefs sprinkled in) in the decades after WW2.

Seems reasonable. The Muslim Brotherhood has generally not had a problem with using the democratic system to get elected, before going full Islamist afterward (IIRC this was why, for example, the Copts supported the military's overthrow of the MB when they did get elected IRL, after the Arab Spring). Qutb himself hated democracy and essentially supported anarcho-Islam (getting the people to be such fanatical Islamists that they'd enforce sharia on their own without need for a government) but without Nasserist repression making it obvious that the MB would never be allowed to gain power democratically in his lifetime, I think it's plausible that he takes the Erdogan approach to the democratic process instead (it being a 'tram ride' that he gets off of when it reaches its destination).

The Jordanian king basically had to be tricked by Nasser into getting tangled up with the Six-Day War, so without the latter in the picture I can't really see him taking the risk of engaging Israel in warfare, I agree. Wouldn't the SSNP be in violent opposition to any 'colonial'-supported monarchy, the same as they historically had been against Zionism? They don't seem to have shied away from attempting violent coups (even when success didn't seem all that likely, like their attempt to overthrow the Lebanese government with 200 guys in 1961) at least once in pretty much every country they had a foothold in from what I've seen, with their Wiki article bluntly describing their approach as 'bullets over ballots'.
The SSNP did coup and at some point they had a strongman Sami al Hinnawi who was OTL killed by a cousin of a former prime Minister.

rest myself.


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During the global conflict, there was a proposal for unification of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine and Transjordan which saw significant opposition and was delayed until Sami al-Hinnawi, who belonged to the SSNP, came to power in Syria, resisting many coups, with the most notorious offender being by Adib Shishakli, another Syrian military leader who was arrested and executed in his prison cell in 1949 after the latest coup orchestrated by him.
Sami al-Hinnawi did everything possible to achieve Antoun Saadeh dream of an united Fertile Crescent and so held a meeting between the Iraqi and Transjordanian Hashemites to create what would become a mouthful of an official country name : the Hashemite Social National Kingdom of Greater Syria and the first order of the day after unification was to establish an Anglo-Franco-Americanophile foreign policy on the surface, since it was argued that the Comintern had clearly supported Israel through political-diplomatic recognition and letting or helping Jewish people emigrate to what was still Mandatory Palestine, though not all of them agreed on it, but the fact of the matter is that they were surrounded by somewhat pro-Western countries by all sides such Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia, the first who had to concede territory to avoid a war with Mikoyan, the second who had almost their country carved up by the Soviet Union if it wasn't for Anglo-American pressure and Saudi Arabia had already been friendly to the United States since its founding. Just as the Anglo-French recruited former SS and Wehrmacht men into the French Foreign Legion to patrol their dominions and the Americans procured "former" Drittes Reich personnel for their newly founded Central Intelligence Agency (notable recruitment including Friedrich Panzinger from the RSHA, Heinrich Müller from the Gestapo and Otto Ernst Remer from the Wehrmacht), so did the Syrians, Turks, Iranians and Saudis. (1)
Flag_of_Kingdom_of_Syria_(1920-03-08_to_1920-07-24).svg.jpg

So here it is barely avoided. The 1961 coup in Lebannon could happen , but I think just mention it briefly in the same section would be better. Also, as far as I know, the SSNP went from national populist to left nationalist in less than two decades. Not to mention that they wanted a secular, united Syrian state and there weren't any indication of what kind of Government they were more inclined I could find (in English, French, Portuguese or Spanish that is).
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Yeah, pretty much. The thing is IDK how much damage he could do as head of a defeated germany, but I'm willing to see.
I mean...he did untold and uncountable damage by being "merely" Secretary of State...in this case he would be HEAD of state. Coincidentally, I could see it happen in a world where the WAllies and the USSR defeat a non-Nazi Germany.
 

ATP

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@Abhorsen because we share a similar view on this skinwalker who masqueraded as human being.
There is one problem with your scenario - Germans lost,becouse they were nazis - if they gave land to soviets,they would win.
So,no nazis Germany would take over Europe and part of Asia - no place for this idiot there.

P.S Yes,he was idiot - becouse saving Mao and trying to save soviets was not only evil,but also stupid.
 

Abhorsen

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I mean...he did untold and uncountable damage by being "merely" Secretary of State...in this case he would be HEAD of state. Coincidentally, I could see it happen in a world where the WAllies and the USSR defeat a non-Nazi Germany.
He was in charge of foreign policy for the most powerful country on earth, and immune from election. I don't think he has as much power as the head of Germany.
 

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