Versus Match Omega class Destroyer (Babylon 5) VS Star League McKenna Class Battleship.

[Bear Ribs]

IT's for these reasons alone, that I have never really bought the toughness of BTech armor. And I always felt that the B5 ships were a little TOO dense. Mind you, I'm a huge BattleTech fan, and I've been playing it for decades. I have just learned to turn off my brain when I look at the tech.

Toughness seems reversed in these realities from what they should be. Though, in the B5 'verse, the Omega IS a tough beast.

It's true, I personally run on the theory that KF Drives are 99.9% Helium by weight and only have a few tons of Germanium and Titanium in them (Otherwise Germanium, which is supposed to make gold look like lead, is ridiculously cheap.). This isn't a perfect solution but both slightly reduces some FASAnomics issues and goes a long way to explaining why the ships are so big for their mass, if much of their interior is basically a helium balloon.

 

[Flintsteel]

I mean, the helium jacket required to keep a core cool is a specified thing, and the easiest way to knock a jumpship out of action is to just blow that out. So yes, they are mostly a helium balloon (well, supercold liquid helium, but that's not exactly much denser).

(Otherwise Germanium, which is supposed to make gold look like lead, is ridiculously cheap.)

Uh, the germanium cost is one of the hurdles of jumpship production. So needing quite a bit is perfectly understandable.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I mean, the helium jacket required to keep a core cool is a specified thing, and the easiest way to knock a jumpship out of action is to just blow that out. So yes, they are mostly a helium balloon (well, supercold liquid helium, but that's not exactly much denser).


Uh, the germanium cost is one of the hurdles of jumpship production. So needing quite a bit is perfectly understandable.

That's kinda the problem, germanium cost is supposed to be one of the hurdles but by the rules, it isn't. This is because KF Drives are really weirdly front-loaded on costs.

To wit, the tiny Scout's KF Drive costs 217,950,000 Cbills and weighs 85,500 tons, so 2,549 Cbills a ton. This is already distressingly... well... cheap. Your extremely basic succession-wars armor plate is 10,000 Cbills a ton. But it gets worse, almost the entire cost of the KF Drive is in its drive controller, charging system, helium tankage, and such, not the actual core where the germanium is. Go up to the big leagues with a Tramp and your drive costs 379,566,668 Cbills and weighs 237,500 tons, for a price of 1,598 Cbills a ton. This is because the drive controller, initiator, charging system, etc. are all flat costs that don't have anything to do with tonnage (Helium tankage does scale with tonnage so there's that). This leads to the weird conclusion that the germanium-containing part is actually dirt cheap. The actually really expensive part is adding collars, which apply a multiplier to those expensive front-loaded drive controller and charging system costs. You can make an uttermassive 500,000 ton JumpShip with a 475,000 ton core and the KF Drive will only run you about 140 billion Cbills as long as you don't give it any collars, because the germanium is somehow the least expensive part.

 

[Spartan303]

Bear Ribs, Why were you all hostile with Harlock and yet are being reasonable with everyone else?

 

[Harlock]

It is because his numbers are based on the idea that

At a range of 4800 meters, a 2 megaton nuke is going to inflict 722,574 megawatts per square centimeter.

And that alone is the reason for the Black Stars destruction, that it could not resist that amount of energy which would give its armour the properties of about 1mm of aluminium according to the linked calculator. He then extrapolates B5 weapons and other armour based on this scene.

But we know thats not true, and he refuses to budge despite it being easily disproven. Hell we don't even need to look beyond that same scene, the first bomb explodes at about 500 metres distant delivering about a hundred times more energy to the Black Star, and the ship isn't turned into instant confetti. If the Black Star was as weak as his calcs suggest the first bomb would have been gross overkill.

It is easier to go prick mode and exhaust an opponent then just admit the entire basis of his assessment of B5 is so easily overturned just by watching the entire scene

Oh, and for the record

I said five shells weighing six tons, not six tons each. Your reading comprehension continues to fail.

Meanwhile the McKenna's NAC/40s do, unsurprisingly, 40 damage a shot by firing a 6-ton slug

It was from your first post. That is why I bailed, because you are a dishonest fuck

 

[Bear Ribs]

Bear Ribs, Why were you all hostile with Harlock and yet are being reasonable with everyone else?

Everybody else was also being reasonable. I'm perfectly willing to meet anybody halfway. Harlock used a great deal of cherry-picking and dishonest tactics and that made me set my teeth.

I decided I was probably taking it too far so I did my little fishook and checked to see if he'd throw out Stracyznky's writings if he had a chance and sure enough, he went for what supported his side rather than what was written by the show's creator, treating canon as whatever won this round of debates.

I can respect somebody who will take a hit for accepting the weak showing of something they also pulled the strong end out of, you have to take the bad with the good. However, you can generally spot a dishonest B5 debater because they will immediately try to throw the entire show away to get at the tabletop game for its biggatons, much like the (pre-Disney canon) dishonest Wars debater would try to throw out every visible feat and insist that every single shot we ever see fired on-screen was .01% power to use the ICS as the highest authority.

It is because his numbers are based on the idea that

And that alone is the reason for the Black Stars destruction, that it could not resist that amount of energy which would give its armour the properties of about 1mm of aluminium according to the linked calculator. He then extrapolates B5 weapons and other armour based on this scene.

But we know thats not true, and he refuses to budge despite it being easily disproven. Hell we don't even need to look beyond that same scene, the first bomb explodes at about 500 metres distant delivering about a hundred times more energy to the Black Star, and the ship isn't turned into instant confetti. If the Black Star was as weak as his calcs suggest the first bomb would have been gross overkill.

It is easier to go prick mode and exhaust an opponent then just admit the entire basis of his assessment of B5 is so easily overturned just by watching the entire scene

Okay, take 500 meters instead. The McKenna will still take zero damage in that situation, it's armor is still absurdly better. Or throw out the Black Star entirely and go with the Shadow and Vorlon ships getting ripped apart by a nuke at a significant distance I also posted. Again, the McKenna's armor would tank that without needing anything more than overtime for the paint-and-chip detail to repair the paint, and those ships are immensely better than an Omega. Coupled with the several other times we hear characters talking about low-yield nukes as superweapons and the aforementioned 200 Megawatt pulse canon, it's fairly clear their weaponry is low-energy overall and their armor would have to match. I don't have to cherry-pick the Black Star, because it wasn't a one-off or unique event.

Oh, and for the record

It was from your first post. That is why I bailed, because you are a dishonest fuck

Well so I did, must have messed up my fraction editing that post. My error.

 

[Flintsteel]

Coupled with the several other times we hear characters talking about low-yield nukes as superweapons and the aforementioned 200 Megawatt pulse canon, it's fairly clear their weaponry is low-energy overall and their armor would have to match.

1.2 gigaton nukes are also a thing. Or Earth's orbital defense platforms, which could level the US east coast with a single shot. Which the Warlock class carries two of.

You're cherry-picking dialogue numbers that do not match the obvious intended scale, based on other showings. Writers and VFX artists are not scientists, and acting like they are infallible is frankly a stupid way to debate.

 

[Harlock]

Okay, take 500 meters instead. The McKenna will still take zero damage in that situation, it's armor is still absurdly better. Or throw out the Black Star entirely and go with the Shadow and Vorlon ships getting ripped apart by a nuke at a significant distance I also posted. Again, the McKenna's armor would tank that without needing anything more than overtime for the paint-and-chip detail to repair the paint, and those ships are immensely better than an Omega. Coupled with the several other times we hear characters talking about low-yield nukes as superweapons and the aforementioned 200 Megawatt pulse canon, it's fairly clear their weaponry is low-energy overall and their armor would have to match. I don't have to cherry-pick the Black Star, because it wasn't a one-off or unique event.

I'm totally open to the McKenna having better armour, maybe it does, it has a better airwing and better auxiliary craft. That's why this match up caught my interest enough to get me to post which is a rare thing. I was genuinely interested in figuring out how the McKenna would operate with those auxiliaries, thats a total wild card in B5 because no ship in that setting has a similar ability.
In my reading firepower is comparable, protection is comparable, acceleration is comparable (I wasn't going to argue 15gs for linear acceleration incidently so you can wind back that accusation) The Omega has better soft factors like sensors and EW, the McKenna has better auxiliary craft. One side can't just overpower the other, its a real fight where tactics are going to matter.
And you killed it dead with candyfloss armour Even now you aren't walking away from it despite everything

I wasn't going to actually use the game, it was an example of why game mechanics are dangerous precisely because it contradicts on screen evidence, we do actually agree on that one and the times I gave actual figures were based on the show, not the books. I stand by the position on canon, but honestly there aren't any actual numbers in those books. It doesn't give megawatts or ranges in kilometres, for a real debate the books offer very little.

I definitely got exhausted and it shows, but that was because of your own wank numbers and the utter unwillingness to accept that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong. Wank is taking a scene that shows an extreme set of numbers and trying to apply those extreme numbers to the whole setting when other scenes handily disprove them. Usually it is to inflate them, but it also applies to the opposite too. More of a hate wank I guess.

In hindsight I should have just pointed at the first nuke as proof and left it at that, so by engaging over a point of visual interpretation I made things more complex, but the net result is the same. You didn't accept that your explanation had flaws which made it unsteady. Now the other scenes you mention are better and there are plenty of other things that could have easily supported you, but you nailed your flag to that one and just wouldn't not accept you were plain old wrong.

So yeah, you're not a fool, you obviously have intelligence, but not budging on that when it was a bad position to hold just killed it. Without that road block things would have gone a bit better.

Well so I did, must have messed up my fraction editing that post. My error.

It wasn't a fraction mistake, the number 6 isn't there, it was just a mistake. I made a mistake too, my issue is partly that you didn't own it, but mainly you made an attack out of my point when you did the same thing. Just a bit dickish and doesn't look great to attack in someone else a flaw you too possess.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Bear Ribs, Why were you all hostile with Harlock and yet are being reasonable with everyone else?

Dudes Minbari. The self loathing alone means his hatred fuels brighter than a thousand gigaton two megaton Nuke incinerating the finest of the Warriors Caste Sharlin fleet and their 80x Aluminum Foil Armored Hulls.

 

[Ash's Boomstick]

How about everyone calms down and restarts, its obvious from just about everything seen in series that B5 armour types are quite hefty especially against weapons from their own races, but at the same time they have their weaknesses. The same goes for BTech, they use multiple weapons types at least a few might not have the effective range needed but others would.

If you all try starting again, do not attack each other, listen to each other and point out the issues than you have without insults then this could be a very good verses and one that while I know little of Battletech I have been learning more about.

I know a lot about B5 technology as its one of the things I read up on the most over the years regarding scifi, but I also know that what is seen on screen has more than once been incorrect later on (The true size of the Sharlin being one of the most egregious of them). Another is the battle with the Black Star, in the S2 episode it was mentioned, the Drala Fi was accompanied by four other ships, in In the Beginning it was alone and the first detonation didn't destroy it, it caused horrific damage but it took the second mine to blow it apart.

Now with the Omega we've seen it make turns far faster than you would expect from a lumbering brick a mile long and with a linear acceleration that it took a next generation hybrid ship to overtake them. So they are far faster moving than expected but it may be that their turning ability is limited by their speeds just like most ships, they also don't have the fuel limits that the McKenna has due to unobtanium requirements and don't require the time to ramp up and slow down that the battleship has.

This is many Battletech information I've had from others during the years so I may be wrong about the engine requirements so please if I am let me know and tell me what the actual information is. Of course after that we have the Omega's ability to jump out of the battlefield and back in again courtesy of a jump point, with an inter-system jump they may not even need a beacon for it either, but would likely be a last ditch tactic that they don't want to use unless they have no choice.

One major advantage to one side or another will also be their airwings, an Omega carries at the minimum, two squadrons (usually 24 fighters) of Starfuries (Aurora or Thunderbolt) both of which are rated against capital ships as well as fighters. The McKenna has fifty fighters of indeterminate classes that may also be rated for warship combat, but are they agile and fast enough to take on Starfuries?

One way or another one side is going to have some problems once their air wings are crippled or destroyed, the Omega has Interceptors to help against survivors of the McKenna's air wing if there are any but does the Battleship have anything that can match them? (Again please let me know if they do).

 

[S'task]

they also don't have the fuel limits that the McKenna has due to unobtanium requirements and don't require the time to ramp up and slow down that the battleship has.

Fuel limits? I mean, yes, the McKenna technically has limited fuel, but it's burn rate is noted to be 39.3 which I think is either the amount of fuel it uses per day (which means it has ~40 days of fuel) OR it's the number of day of normal operations it has before it needs refueling. Either way I'm not seeing any way the engagement takes a month to determine...

Of course after that we have the Omega's ability to jump out of the battlefield and back in again courtesy of a jump point, with an inter-system jump they may not even need a beacon for it either, but would likely be a last ditch tactic that they don't want to use unless they have no choice.

Strictly speaking the McKenna can do the same so long as it is outside the gravitational tidal limit of the nearby star (which varies depending on the size of the star, in this case roughly the orbit of Saturn). Granted it can only reliably do it once, but if the McKenna captain gets creative that once is all it needs, as anything that a K-F ship jumps on top of is outright destroyed due to, well, it's an FTL drive that works by punching a hole through alternative dimensions and breaks causality, K-F drives are weird. Again it would be a desperation tactic, and neither captain is said to be bloodlusted, so it's an unlikely trick.

The McKenna has fifty fighters of indeterminate classes that may also be rated for warship combat, but are they agile and fast enough to take on Starfuries?

That really depends on what speed stats you're using for Starfuries. One of the things that I keep running into when it comes to B5 Earth tech is that there are serious contradictions between what they say they have... and how the ships then move and accelerate. Starfuries and the Omega class both lack artificial gravity and the scenes, as I recall them, show people having to strap in and wear g-suits to compensate for maneuvering. But then the stats they give for the ships ability to accelerate and maneuver feature numbers so high that if those accelerations were true the lack of artificial gravity would results in everyone aboard those ships and fighters being DEAD from gee force acceleration. For instance, you throw out 15 g as the max speed an Omega class can rotate... that's enough to outright kill a human right there by itself.

That said, the BattleTech Aerospace Fighters ARE quite maneuverable and have vectored thrusters much like the Starfuries. In point of fact, BattleTech is one of the few universes BESIDES B5 where their fighters in space act like, well, objects in space. Novels show aerospace pilots pitching their fighters noses to bring weapons to bear while maintaining original vector, using sudden hard burns to change vectors in ways you cannot ever due in atmosphere. Despite looking like cliched atmospheric fighters, BattleTech aerospace fighters and their pilots are trained to fight in space as it's own thing, the fighters just happen to ALSO be able to end and fly in atmosphere effectively.

That said, Starfuries are likely faster and more maneuverable; however, I still hold that Aerospace fighters of similar size to Starfuries are going to be much tougher and able to take more fire from the Starfuries than expected. While he tended to highball BattleTech, Bear Ribs isn't wrong about the idea that a BattleTech aerospace fighter could theoretically lose control, hit reentry of a planet, crash into a planet and then take back off and reenter a fight. Aerospace fighters are more like flying tanks whom beat gravity in atmosphere not due to having wings and the like, but because their fusion torch drive just outputs that much power as to give gravity and friction the middle finger. Also bear in mind Aerospace fighters carry the EXACT same weapons as BattleTech's MBTs and BattleMechs, so if you go a few posts up you'll note that they have much longer range than people give credit for. In this case this means that, for instance, they'll could be carrying Laser weapons with a range of 420 kms for their normal operational range that deal , but that can hit even further if carefully aimed. Also note, Large Lasers are not the longest ranged weapon in their arsenal.

Anyway, the most likely types of aerospace fighters that a McKenna would carry would be from this list, with an emphasis on Aerospace fighters that could serve as interceptors and escorts over assault craft.

 

[Bear Ribs]

1.2 gigaton nukes are also a thing. Or Earth's orbital defense platforms, which could level the US east coast with a single shot. Which the Warlock class carries two of.

You're cherry-picking dialogue numbers that do not match the obvious intended scale, based on other showings. Writers and VFX artists are not scientists, and acting like they are infallible is frankly a stupid way to debate.

The Warlock is significantly more advanced than the Omega, which is an older design. Given it employs both Shadowtech and Minbari tech, it could be reasonably said to be generations more advanced, with artificial gravity, high acceleration, and advanced weaponry. In S6E5 A Call to Arms the Warlock was reliable one-shotting ships that the Omega had to pound on for minutes to kill. It is not remotely comparable to the Omega and would also likely lay waste to a McKenna.

Dudes Minbari. The self loathing alone means his hatred fuels brighter than a thousand gigaton two megaton Nuke incinerating the finest of the Warriors Caste Sharlin fleet and their 80x Aluminum Foil Armored Hulls.

Quite honestly I got supremely pissed off when Harlock claimed the Omega had inertial dampeners and could ignore acceleration and gravity effects, something that goes so dramatically against all B5 lore I pretty much wrote him off as a lost cause and decided to just needle him while showing everybody else in the thread appropriate respect.

One way or another one side is going to have some problems once their air wings are crippled or destroyed, the Omega has Interceptors to help against survivors of the McKenna's air wing if there are any but does the Battleship have anything that can match them? (Again please let me know if they do).

The McKenna will be hosed if it has to face any fighters without fighter cover of its own. It's pretty much an all-big-guns build that has no point defense. Its assorted weapons can hit fighters but take a stiff accuracy penalty, eyeballing the math I'd estimate it would hit perhaps with 10-15% of time, and fires around once a minute. Now on the flipside, each of those capital-class weapons is going to hit like a tank and it'll be able to fire around 30 of them at a time in each broadside, so it definitely will kill a few fighters but it'll take a serious beating trying to swat them all. Its capital lasers have an anti-fighter mode that's somewhat more accurate but it only has three of those on each side.

The McKenna does carry antifighter missiles in the form of Barracudas but it doesn't have enough rounds to handle the Omega's entire fighter complement. If only a handful broke through it could likely handle them but a full swarm would put it in serious trouble.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

While he tended to highball BattleTech, Bear Ribs isn't wrong about the idea that a BattleTech aerospace fighter could theoretically lose control, hit reentry of a planet, crash into a planet and then take back off and reenter a fight.

Nothing in Battletech fluff or rules supports this.

 

[Atarlost]

Nothing in Battletech fluff or rules supports this.

There are rules for crashing and the damage is finite and randomly distributed. There are some really heavily armored fighters that if pristine can survive a crash with only armor damage if the damage distribution isn't too far off the expected values. They're all basically post-Star League, though. You could see a Clan McKenna flying Hydaspes, but I think using Clan dropships and fighters is stretching things.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Crash results in destruction. Simply that.

A bad landing causes damage. We're not taking about not sticking a landing.

 

[Bear Ribs]

It took less than ten seconds on google to find an example. ASF crashing, having minor damage, and being able to take off again is pretty much a BT Meme at this point.

How can I explain a ASF crash and then the ASF being able to lift off again

 

[The Whispering Monk]

It took less than ten seconds on google to find an example. ASF crashing, having minor damage, and being able to take off again is pretty much a BT Meme at this point.

How can I explain a ASF crash and then the ASF being able to lift off again

This is simply an example of an ASF at low altitude losing control and the pilot recovering enough to make the crash survivable.

NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING in the rules OR FLUFF suggest an ASF can make an uncontrolled atmospheric entry to become a lawn dart, and THEN takeoff again. The atmospheric burn can destroy the ASF by itself. The impact for crashing, especially from orbit, will likely turn said ASF into confetti.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The atmospheric burn can destroy the ASF by itself. The impact for crashing, especially from orbit, will likely turn said ASF into confetti.

Why don't you go ahead and prove these two positive claims.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I'll have to look up the re-entry rules again, but it's pretty severe, especially for an uncontrolled entry.

Impact with the ground is as bad or worse. Total Warfare damage = velocity (likely somewhere in the range of 3-8) x 10 x roll of 2d6.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I'll have to look up the re-entry rules again, but it's pretty severe, especially for an uncontrolled entry.

Impact with the ground is as bad or worse. Total Warfare damage = velocity (likely somewhere in the range of 3-8) x 10 x roll of 2d6.

Unreal. It's literally quoted in the link I gave you to the forum. What's your excuse for not having read it? Re-entry is five points of damage per point of failure on the control roll. The MoF on having no control at all is 10, though the total damage can go as high as 250 if the pilot's, like, dead and the fighter's moving at a decent clip when it hits the atmosphere.

Collision with the ground is 2d6*10*velocity. Per page 84 in Total Warfare, a unit in atmosphere not actively firing its thrusters has its velocity halved each turn (round fractions down), so by the time it reaches the ground from orbit, an uncontrolled unit will actually be at 0 and take no damage.

Terminal velocity is actually extremely slow compared to the BS speeds BattleTech ASF fly around at, and generally, they really only take any serious crash damage when they're afterburning straight into a cliff or the like. Yes, amusingly that "low altitude" crash you pooh-poohed due to a lack of understanding was actually much higher-damage than being shot down from orbit would be, due to how fast the fighters are.

It's possible to slap 800 points of armor on an ASF though few spend half that much tonnage on it. Consequently their armor can easily be enough to soak re-entry even at the highest level of damage and also soak a crash landing with no control.

A fighter absolutely can be destroyed by the combination of re-entry and crashing, and the lighter poorly-armored models usually will, but it's also absolutely not a sure thing. It's no exaggeration at all to say that BT fighters can be shot down and fly back out of their own impact crater to re-enter the battle, and many many people have stories of having done so. One player even notes she's had a fighter crash twice and take off out of its own impact crater twice in the same fight, though she usually has her fighters fly back to base for repairs after their first crash.

Note for comparison, per page 26 of Strategic Operations they are specialized space suits in BT capable of letting an ejected pilot re-enter the atmosphere at full speed and make it to the ground. BT armor is just that stupid tough.

Good thing to do is remind your readers somehow that aerospace fighters are NOT as fragile as 20/21st-century aircraft, not by a long shot. They are fusion rockets plated in many tons of the same armor that makes mechs viable. 'Flying Tank' is a term that actually does a gross disservice to ASFs, as they're built far tougher than any real tank we can conceive of.

This happens to me frequently in megamek, actually. Crashlanding damage is based on velocity, and I tend to fly very slow for the tighter turning circle (velocity 1-2), so that I don't constantly fly off the map while delivering close air support.

The heavier fighters are quite capable of surviving a crash (and there don't seem to be rules for pilot hits from crashlanding either; MM never applies any), after which they can vertically take off again (with the penalty for not being on a runway/spaceport, of course). I've had one survive two crashes, even, though I usually try to get them to withdraw when they make it back into the air after the first crash.

I always assumed that with the array of space manoeuvring thrusters an ASF has, they can fire them to raise themselves up enough from the ground at most angles to extend the landing gear and then do a proper take off from that.