Old Republic vs Imperium of Man (politics and organization)

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
OK, I cannot really say that I know much about the Star Wars' Republic beyond it being apparently based on the Roman Republic - but that was quite enough to catch my interest.

So when comparing it with my favorite SF polity, how would it stack up? What I mean here is not military power (Imperium would eat it for breakfast) but rather political organization. Imperium of Man is basically Holy Roman Empire in space: a collection of various polities and organizations held together only by loyalty to the Emperor. Each planet is its own state, with its own laws and army; and beyond individual worlds, there are also organizations such as Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astartes and so on - and each of those has its own army, territory and laws (Ultramar, anyone?). So long as you pay taxes... don't rebel... don't engage in sorcery... don't get corrupted by Chaos... Imperium doesn't really care about what you do and how you govern yourself. So you have worlds which range from planetary democracies to planetary monarchies to anarchistic collections of tribes to completely lawless hellholes. Sure, you generally need to sort your shit out... but on the other hand, there is no Big Brother telling you how to live your life (well, except for the Inquisition - but they do that for a damn good reason). Overall, if it weren't for Chaos, Imperium may not be that bad of a place to live.

But what about the Old Republic? How does it compare to IoM?
 
The short version is that the republic occasionally fails to get itself in gear and respond promptly to a crisis.

The imperium occasionally manages to get itself in gear and respond to a crisis, and in a handful of those limited cases, it even does so in a timely manner.
 
The short version is that the republic occasionally fails to get itself in gear and respond promptly to a crisis.

The imperium occasionally manages to get itself in gear and respond to a crisis, and in a handful of those limited cases, it even does so in a timely manner.

so more times than not the Republic would have the jump on the imperium?
 
so more times than not the Republic would have the jump on the imperium?

Not exactly. The republic has a faster response time and is less likely to completely botch the response, yes. However, they don't always have the military power to actually jump on anyone, the republic is heavily demilitarized.
 
from what little i've read of 40K I think the Republic's biggest issue is they don't have any Big guy/Heavy troopers that can compete with the Space marines.
 
from what little i've read of 40K I think the Republic's biggest issue is they don't have any Big guy/Heavy troopers that can compete with the Space marines.

Ahem:
Jedi-Order_c0dfa281.jpeg


But as the OP said, that's not really a point of debate, this is a comparison of government structure rather than military power.
 
Ahem:
Jedi-Order_c0dfa281.jpeg


But as the OP said, that's not really a point of debate, this is a comparison of government structure rather than military power.


The republic was the worst of both worlds. They were a centralized big brother but didn't have the teeth of being centralized. The problem with living under the imperium is you are basically doomed by the plot. meaning unless you're a space marine you're going to get corrupted by chaos or trapped in the rebellion. At least with the republic yes, they are corrupt, but their corruption is easier to evade.
 
Last edited:
The republic was the worst of both worlds. They were a centralized big brother but didn't have the teeth of being centralized. The problem with living under the imperium is you are basically doomed by the plot. meaning unless you're a space marine you're going to get corrupted by chaos or trapped in the rebellion. At least with the republic yes, they are corrupt, but their corruption is easier to evade.

The republic largely didn't need teeth, and it's not really suggested that they're any sort of big brother state either.
 
Frankly, I think the Old Republic is BIGGER than the Imperium of Man. Even at the height of the IoM, it only controlled a portion of the Galaxy, and was being resisted by Xenos.

The OR fought numerous galactic wars, and they were not averse to erasing civilizations if necessary. (Sith anyone?) The idea the OR was somehow enlightened beyond other polities is pretty ridiculous. Hell, they never even stamped out slavery despite all the Jedi Lords running around at certain points.

The benefit of the IoM is that it CAN martial (see what I did there?) it's forces on a galactic scale in a more timely manner than the OR.

I think that the benefit for the OR is that it will actually be able to out produce the IoM once it gets rolling.
 
So long as you pay taxes
Oddly, this is the huge problem with the Imperium: the crazy high taxes. The amount of stuff they demand basically makes it into a command economy, inheriting the inefficiencies of that. This, combined with the prohibition of invention (for kinda decent in lore reasoning), makes the Imperium as a polity a very bad place to live, as they are fundamentally stagnant, with little chance of advancing. Basically, outside of being a war hero or rich, it's almost impossible to secure a better life for your children. And being a war hero is 100x more about being lucky than good in the Imperium.

The Republic, by contrast, isn't really roman republic, (though it has all the corruption of that), as senators actually represent planets, whereas in Rome, all the Senators were Roman. Honestly, the Republic is more like the EU (that's European Union, not Expanded Universe), if the EU didn't have immigration problems because it spanned most of the known world. They kinda barely have a military, but everyone's been war free for decades, there's mostly free trade and free movement between planets. The contrast is that the Republic is too big to actually enforce their regulations, which has advantages and disadvantages.

So yeah, I'd much prefer the Republic.
 
Frankly, I think the Old Republic is BIGGER than the Imperium of Man. Even at the height of the IoM, it only controlled a portion of the Galaxy, and was being resisted by Xenos.

But we also do not know the exact size of the Star Wars galaxy, especially in Lucas canon (I neither watched nor have interest in anything that came after that). References I managed to find mention "a million systems" of the Galactic Empire (ANH), but also "ten thousand systems" expected to join the Confederacy. That would appear to put it in the same size bracket as the IoM, which has more than a million systems (there is an old quote mentioning that there is "less than one" Space Marine for each planet in the Imperium, and there are about a million Space Marines in total, so...).

On the other hand, Imperium has numerous Hive Worlds which can house trillion or more people each, whereas only "hive world" in Star Wars galaxy is Coruscant, which has a population of around three trillion. So even assuming equal number of inhabited worlds, Imperium would have far greater population. Assuming 1 million worlds, 1 billion for an average world, with 32 380 Hive Worlds numbering 10 billion to 2 trillion each in the Imperium, this would give it a population of around 1 - 2 quadrillion people in the Imperium.

Old Republic however has mostly "normal" or low-population worlds; so with Coruscant, those million worlds would carry a population of 1 - 2 quadrillion, which is roughly on par with the Imperium.

But again, this is not a comparison of military potential.

Oddly, this is the huge problem with the Imperium: the crazy high taxes. The amount of stuff they demand basically makes it into a command economy, inheriting the inefficiencies of that. This, combined with the prohibition of invention (for kinda decent in lore reasoning), makes the Imperium as a polity a very bad place to live, as they are fundamentally stagnant, with little chance of advancing. Basically, outside of being a war hero or rich, it's almost impossible to secure a better life for your children. And being a war hero is 100x more about being lucky than good in the Imperium.

True. On the other hand, majority of the worlds in the Imperium may not be that bad places to live (high taxes aside). And being stagnant does not, on its own, make something a bad place to live: after all, for majority of human history human society was stagnant when looking at it from reference of a human lifespan. It was only in the last 100 - 200 years that changes became noticeable on individual human's timeframe.

The Republic, by contrast, isn't really roman republic, (though it has all the corruption of that), as senators actually represent planets, whereas in Rome, all the Senators were Roman. Honestly, the Republic is more like the EU (that's European Union, not Expanded Universe), if the EU didn't have immigration problems because it spanned most of the known world. They kinda barely have a military, but everyone's been war free for decades, there's mostly free trade and free movement between planets. The contrast is that the Republic is too big to actually enforce their regulations, which has advantages and disadvantages.

While it has been years since I have last seen The Phantom Menace, I do remember that Senators also represent major corporations as well - Trade Federation etc. have representatives in the Senate, as opposed to say modern-day EU where they "just" buy "elected" representatives. They are also powerful enough to block any kind of assistance to any single planet: fact that head of the Senate had to go behind Senate's back to provide any help to Naboo at all does not speak well of Republic's efficiency.
 
Oddly, this is the huge problem with the Imperium: the crazy high taxes. The amount of stuff they demand basically makes it into a command economy, inheriting the inefficiencies of that. This, combined with the prohibition of invention (for kinda decent in lore reasoning), makes the Imperium as a polity a very bad place to live, as they are fundamentally stagnant, with little chance of advancing. Basically, outside of being a war hero or rich, it's almost impossible to secure a better life for your children. And being a war hero is 100x more about being lucky than good in the Imperium.

I'm actually not super familiar with the fluff for the Imperial tithe, how high is it for most worlds?

I know the military tithe is 10% of the planet's PDF, collected at an irregular basis. For Earth, that would be 2 million men every so often (much less if the Imperium is only looking for combat arms). Even if that was at an annual basis that seems to be a sustainable drain, particularly since Imperial planets are not as adverse to conscription as we are.
 
I'm actually not super familiar with the fluff for the Imperial tithe, how high is it for most worlds?

I know the military tithe is 10% of the planet's PDF, collected at an irregular basis. For Earth, that would be 2 million men every so often (much less if the Imperium is only looking for combat arms). Even if that was at an annual basis that seems to be a sustainable drain, particularly since Imperial planets are not as adverse to conscription as we are.
I'm not talking about the tithe in men, more about the tithe in goods from Hive Worlds. It forces them to produce X, not Y, which leads to a command economy. Basically, they turn into America's Economy during WW2. That's sustainable over a limited time, but a) it was sustainable because America paid them to do this instead of just seizing the tanks off the production line, and b) it only lasted a limited amount of time. They kinda pay in shipments of grain, but again, that's even less free market going on, and the shipments in grain don't really seem linked to payment, but instead to need, which is a sign your economy is fucked beyond all recognition.

True. On the other hand, majority of the worlds in the Imperium may not be that bad places to live (high taxes aside). And being stagnant does not, on its own, make something a bad place to live: after all, for majority of human history human society was stagnant when looking at it from reference of a human lifespan. It was only in the last 100 - 200 years that changes became noticeable on individual human's timeframe.
The changes don't have to be big, they just have to be there. In the Imperium, it's nearly impossible to hope for a better future for your kids. There is no hope. The reverse was true in most of human civilization. You had a decent chance of being able to do something risky to get ahead. In the Imperium, there's almost no chance.

While it has been years since I have last seen The Phantom Menace, I do remember that Senators also represent major corporations as well - Trade Federation etc. have representatives in the Senate, as opposed to say modern-day EU where they "just" buy "elected" representatives. They are also powerful enough to block any kind of assistance to any single planet: fact that head of the Senate had to go behind Senate's back to provide any help to Naboo at all does not speak well of Republic's efficiency.
The senators you are talking about were representing planets that were a part of the Trade Federation, from what I recall. Like Nemodia.

But that's not really the point I was making. I'm saying that the Republic being mostly useless is better than the Imperium controlling everything (minus 40k!Chaos, which makes it sorta a necessity). Basically, ask a citizen of the republic what polity they identify with, and they'll say Corellian, or Coruscanti, or etc. They won't say the Republic. Just like an EU citizen will typically say Italian, Polish or French rather than European.
 
While it has been years since I have last seen The Phantom Menace, I do remember that Senators also represent major corporations as well - Trade Federation etc. have representatives in the Senate, as opposed to say modern-day EU where they "just" buy "elected" representatives. They are also powerful enough to block any kind of assistance to any single planet: fact that head of the Senate had to go behind Senate's back to provide any help to Naboo at all does not speak well of Republic's efficiency.

The question is, does it speak poorly of the republic's inefficiency relative to the imperium?

For a comparable 40k example, when Lufgt Huron and his chapter fell victim to a spectacular case of tunnel vision and defacto blockaded a neighboring Imperial sector (there was no actual blockade, but the Astral Claws cut off all the resource shipments that were supposed to be delivered to the cartago sector).

In star wars, the trade federation managed to gum up the Senate and stall them from taking action immediately, but the sent still would have acted. It just would have taken longer, maybe a few weeks, months at the outmost.

In 40k, it took the imperium more than a century to get around to sorting the Badab issue, and several more years and a small war before they actually took action.

I'm not talking about the tithe in men, more about the tithe in goods from Hive Worlds. It forces them to produce X, not Y, which leads to a command economy. Basically, they turn into America's Economy during WW2. That's sustainable over a limited time, but a) it was sustainable because America paid them to do this instead of just seizing the tanks off the production line, and b) it only lasted a limited amount of time. They kinda pay in shipments of grain, but again, that's even less free market going on, and the shipments in grain don't really seem linked to payment, but instead to need, which is a sign your economy is fucked beyond all recognition.

I'm not sure that's correct. The tithe is typically based on whatever a world already produces, it's not "produce X instead of Y" its "you already produce X, we want Y units of that X", so Imperial control over the local economy is more limited than you sem to envision. It's more akin to the US government placing an order for existing commercial products for its own use.

You are mostly correct in that the imperium doesn't pay for the tithe. I don't want to get into that too much since how 40k handles currency is a complicated and almost certainly intentional nonsensical system, but I will point back to how the imperium redistribute goods, such as food, as part of the tithe.

Many planets in 40k are not capable of operating independently, or can function independently but not at their current level of population or productivity, they're dependent on external resources. Saying hive worlds being unable to feed themselves is a sign of economic ruin is akin to saying that NYC being unable to grow its own food is a sign of economic ruin.
 
I'm not talking about the tithe in men, more about the tithe in goods from Hive Worlds. It forces them to produce X, not Y, which leads to a command economy. Basically, they turn into America's Economy during WW2. That's sustainable over a limited time, but a) it was sustainable because America paid them to do this instead of just seizing the tanks off the production line, and b) it only lasted a limited amount of time. They kinda pay in shipments of grain, but again, that's even less free market going on, and the shipments in grain don't really seem linked to payment, but instead to need, which is a sign your economy is fucked beyond all recognition.

Except Imperium doesn't control much of anything, really. You have tithe of goods you have to deliver, and that's it. And rather than forcing a planet to produce certain goods, tithe is (in theory at least) set to what planet already has in abundance: so a Hive World will have tithe set mostly in terms of manpower for the Imperial Guard (because they often have more bodies than they know what to do with), a Forge World will have tithe set in terms of whatever is being produced at a specific Forge World (e.g. Baneblades, Titans...), and so on.

Imperial Tithe is in fact a remarkably effective way of running an interstellar empire in conditions of unreliable communications, and does not bear even the slightest resemblance to the command economy. In simplest terms, command economy would be central government deciding what and in which quantities will be produced at a certain world. Imperial tithe is government looking at what is already and in which quantities produced at a certain world, and then deciding how much of that good it wants to take. These systems may look similar on surface, but in real terms they are complete opposites. Of course, Administratum being what it is, it often sets demands which force the world to pretty much focus all energy on producing that one thing, but that is administrative incompetence rather than command economy - and is not nearly always the case.

The changes don't have to be big, they just have to be there. In the Imperium, it's nearly impossible to hope for a better future for your kids. There is no hope. The reverse was true in most of human civilization. You had a decent chance of being able to do something risky to get ahead. In the Imperium, there's almost no chance.

That is true, mostly because trying to get ahead results in you getting eaten by daemons.

The senators you are talking about were representing planets that were a part of the Trade Federation, from what I recall. Like Nemodia.

According to StarWars.com, Trade Federation - as in, the trade association itself - had representative(s) in the Senate, specifically to lobby for even greater power:
One of the wealthiest corporate organizations in the galaxy, the Trade Federation controlled most of the interstellar shipping passing through the Rim territories. The Trade Federation was headed by Viceroy Nute Gunray, and even had its own representative in the Republic Senate to lobby for even greater power.

And now that I think about it, wasn't discussion in The Phantom Menace pretty much Trade Federation vs Naboo? As in, representative of Trade Federation was arguing with the Naboo Queen, rather than merely a representative of a planet X acting on behalf of the Trade Federation.

But that's not really the point I was making. I'm saying that the Republic being mostly useless is better than the Imperium controlling everything (minus 40k!Chaos, which makes it sorta a necessity). Basically, ask a citizen of the republic what polity they identify with, and they'll say Corellian, or Coruscanti, or etc. They won't say the Republic. Just like an EU citizen will typically say Italian, Polish or French rather than European.

Your point is incorrect because Imperium doesn't come anywhere close to controling everything. Basically, Imperium just says "pay tithe, don't rebel, watch out for Chaos and don't make me come there", and worlds are more or less left alone to manage their own affairs.

And why you think that Imperial citizens do not identify with their own home worlds? Not just civilians, but even entire military units have very pronounced planetary character - you can, at a first glance, tell whether a certain Imperial unit is from Cadia, Fenris, Armageddon or wherever. In fact, you can more easily tell Imperial regiments apart than you can tell apart, say, Croatian, Polish and British contingents in UN missions.

The question is, does it speak poorly of the republic's inefficiency relative to the imperium?

For a comparable 40k example, when Lufgt Huron and his chapter fell victim to a spectacular case of tunnel vision and defacto blockaded a neighboring Imperial sector (there was no actual blockade, but the Astral Claws cut off all the resource shipments that were supposed to be delivered to the cartago sector).

In star wars, the trade federation managed to gum up the Senate and stall them from taking action immediately, but the sent still would have acted. It just would have taken longer, maybe a few weeks, months at the outmost.

In 40k, it took the imperium more than a century to get around to sorting the Badab issue, and several more years and a small war before they actually took action.

That may or may not be comparable. To use a real-life example, there were several cases when Roman and Byzantine Emperors tolerated tyrants, because those tyrants were fighting against the same enemies as they were, or simply because they were too busy with other things. In 286., Carausius took three Roman legions and left for Britain, setting up himself as a tyrant there. After Maximian's attempt to oust him failed, he was formally recognized among the Augusti, simply because other emperors had major problems to solve on the continent. Likewise, in 350., Constantius II recognized Vetranio as a co-emperor because he needed a counterweight to Magnentius (if you want to read more, I found a few blog posts: link, link, link, link).

So rather than an example of inefficiency, Badab is more likely the case of Imperium simply deciding it had more important stuff to do at that time. For Republic however, Naboo was the issue of the time. Unlike Imperium where Badab was "eh, another warlord getting uppity? Whatever, let's look at this Tyranid incursion...), there is little indication that Republic was being busy solving any issues more pressing than Trade Federation mounting an armed invasion of one of its member worlds. Sending mere two Jedi was done because, rather than being busy, it was simply the best Republic could do at the time.

(Unless I am missing something wrt Republic, which is entirely likely).
 
Last edited:
In SW, the Old Republic existed for thousands of years, and changed a lot during those millennia. As a rule, it was also an "HRE in space" kind of deal. Except with a republican central government, instead of a monarchist one. In fact, I think that most of the time, it's formally more decentralised than the Imperium. The Imperium is decentralised because it's basically just barely capable of holding itself together due to a whole set of dire circumstances, but de jure, it's supposed to be far more organised. I seem to recall that the Emperor had actually designed it to be more of a "Rome Empire in Space" than a "Holy Roman Empire in Space".

The Old Republic, by contrast, was set up as a confederation of member states (which range from individual planets to interstellar states that cover many systems). But sometimes, it de facto turns into a far more centralised state due to spcific circumstances. Usually, this involves a charismatic leader usurping power, and/or a state of galactic war that causes martial law to sort of b the norm for a bit. (And typically, these two things co-incide.)

Interestingly, there may be conflicting assumptions about the nature of political and historical reality at work here. WH40K runs on the premise that the galaxy is a horror-show, and the chaotic state of the Imperium is depicted as a (negative?) consequence of this. It'not stated explicitly, but it's not unreasonable to infer that "Roman Empire in Space" would presumably be an improvement.

SW, by contrast, invariably portrays centralism as bad. Every single time, it's either the bad guys imposing it, or good guys turn bad while fighting those bad guys... and become centralists in the process. Meanwhile, the heroes invariably argue against central power. Even when the negatives of decentralism (e.g. some worlds have horrific laws) are shown, it's still an article of faith that the alternative would unquestionably be worse.

I've previously argued that in SW, any galactic government has to be decentralist, because a union of thousands of species is never going to be homogeneous or uniform by any metric. So imposing "one way of doing things" centrally means oppressing a lot of people by default. In WH40K, by contrast, the Imperium is homogeneous by design, and is in fact terrified to be anything else. As long as that remains the case, it has far greater potential for more stable government that's also centrally directed.

Recapitulating:

-- The Imperium is the Holy Roman Empire in Space, but would like to be the Roman Empire in Space.

-- The Old Republic is really more... the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in Space. With occasional bouts of centralist dictatorship, which always turn out terribly, reminding everyone of why centralism is a bad idea... and than it's back to the old stand-by.
 
OK, I cannot really say that I know much about the Star Wars' Republic beyond it being apparently based on the Roman Republic - but that was quite enough to catch my interest.

So when comparing it with my favorite SF polity, how would it stack up? What I mean here is not military power (Imperium would eat it for breakfast) but rather political organization. Imperium of Man is basically Holy Roman Empire in space: a collection of various polities and organizations held together only by loyalty to the Emperor. Each planet is its own state, with its own laws and army; and beyond individual worlds, there are also organizations such as Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astartes and so on - and each of those has its own army, territory and laws (Ultramar, anyone?). So long as you pay taxes... don't rebel... don't engage in sorcery... don't get corrupted by Chaos... Imperium doesn't really care about what you do and how you govern yourself. So you have worlds which range from planetary democracies to planetary monarchies to anarchistic collections of tribes to completely lawless hellholes. Sure, you generally need to sort your shit out... but on the other hand, there is no Big Brother telling you how to live your life (well, except for the Inquisition - but they do that for a damn good reason). Overall, if it weren't for Chaos, Imperium may not be that bad of a place to live.

But what about the Old Republic? How does it compare to IoM?
I’m sorry I have to correct you. The Imperium has almost no similarities to the Holy Roman Empire it is too centralized the Imperial guard, Administrative, the church and Admech are all central organizations they are not local they all can dominate planetary governors. The imperium is closer to Ancient Rome or Byzantium, or even the Nazis or the communists than it having similarities to the HRE.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top