NGSW imfo comes out
- Thread starter Zachowon
- Start date
Whiskey Golf
Lewd Battalion
A lot of things they want in NGSW are actually good, like polymer cased ammo and the smart scope*, but I think 6.8mm is a mistake borne of the GWOT and the fact that flag and field grade officers today were field grade and junior officers in Afghanistan getting shot at from outside effective range of the M4 to retaliate at. They talk about armor defeat at range, but I mean, people are taking cover and suppressing each other, only poking their heads out. What's the point of a round that can defeat Lvl IV when the exposed bits of the body aren't wearing Lvl IV? better to work on marksmanship first, especially since M855A1 can consistently get you fatal hits at 500 meters with a 12.5" barrel, so the 14.5" M4A1s that Big Army and the 16" M27s in USMC can reach out and be effective where the old M855 wasn't.
*It's basically a 1-10x first focal plane low power variable optic with a ballistic computer and a laser rangefinder in a single package. You aim, lase the target, and it throws up a projected impact point on the optic, like with an Abrams FCS. If you get EMP'd... well, that sucks, but it's still a first focal plane LPVO: EMP does jack shit to an etched reticle, so you can keep fighting.
*It's basically a 1-10x first focal plane low power variable optic with a ballistic computer and a laser rangefinder in a single package. You aim, lase the target, and it throws up a projected impact point on the optic, like with an Abrams FCS. If you get EMP'd... well, that sucks, but it's still a first focal plane LPVO: EMP does jack shit to an etched reticle, so you can keep fighting.
The US Army is going into a force on force mindset. We aren't facing insuregnts in A-stan anymore. We are preparing to fight peer enemies, and if you fire at someone while they are not in cover and moving, why give them a chance to survive when you go through their armor.
Plus, better to be able to over pen what your enemy is wearing just in case.
Also, we know these groups are listening to the soldiers as look at the Tectron one.
The Army is looking to OVermatch, as in not go for good enough, they want to go for overkill.
Whiskey Golf
Lewd Battalion
I don't think the recoil and weight penalty of 6.8mm is worth the tradeoff in the infantry rifle (as opposed to being the SAW round). Here's the problem: even in peer enemies, not everybody is wearing body armor, not everybody is wearing Level IV plates like America, the kind of plates that will no-sell 5.56mm are also heavy things. There's going to be limits to how much of that is out there. America is a pay to win whale while the rest of the world are free to play minnows and China and Russia are salty tunas.
I really question whether it should be the job of the riflemen to be engaging enemy riflemen at 600 meters: that ought to be the job of the SAW/GPMG/DMR/supporting fires.
Yes, the Army wants overkill, but the Army also has a track record of being retarded when it comes to small arms. The reality is that infantry combat happens sub 400 meters, outside of the outlier of Afghanistan. The close range firefight is won by the side with fire superiority: you get fire superiority by being better able to sustain a volume of accurate fire than the other guy, which is why everyone went to intermediate rounds for their rifles. Going to a bigger heavier round means more recoil and more weight, which means it's harder to control the rifle and keep rounds on target, even in rapid semiauto. So your rate of fire is lower, your volume of fire is lower, and you're fighting to control the gun more.
Like I said already, a lot of things in NGSW are good ideas, but 6.8mm as the infantry rifle round is not one of them. Now, if you were using that for the SAW, to replace the M249 and the GPMG, I can see an argument for that, and I don't have a problem with the SAW variant of the NGSW program.
They are replacing both he SAW and the M4 with it, same reason is because both can use same ammo.
And being overkill with the round comes in very handy. Range is sub 400 yes, does not mean one should not be ready for more.
Near peer opponents have body armor with same level plates.
My point being this: the round is not that much bigger, from testing the soldiers using it have said they do not notice a diffrcne, and in fact that was part of what the companies had to do iirc when using that size round.
The Marines use a rifle as their LMG, so for instance, the GD design s basically the same concept. While as the other two keep the traditional design.
These weapons are also not that heavy, and iirc are lighter then an M16.
6.8 is still an intermediate round, it isn't a 7.62, and it isn't 5.56. It is a good imbetween the two, and allows for a good combination of both.
The lastcouple times they tried to replace the M$ they always used the 5.56 and they never made it as replacement where as this has proven to be better then the m4 is nearly every way from what I have seen.
That too, and since the Qrmy is going for Force on Force instead of COIN. Having something to penetrate modern armor is needed
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
That and the fact that due to the fact that we're at the end of the line for cordite/smokeless powder propellants, armor had the time to catch up. Due to how this family of propellants works, the only way to improve armor penetration is to go up on caliber. Bigger Caliber = more Ke = more penetration. It'll likely be decades after Electrothermal Chemical propellants are made practical for tanks and ships that we'll see ETC small arms and small round calibers slowly shrink, and that is going to force the change from body armor being a requirement on the modern battlefield to full-fledged power armor ala Battletech Battle Armor or Fallout's 'wearable tank' power armor instead.
A long way away from that
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Surprisingly enough, we're getting the bedrock for such systems, the only real problem is the power source but that is becoming less of a problem right now thanks to advances in battery tech. Right now we're looking for batteries that can survive the rigors of combat conditions, and solid-state batteries are looking quite promising so far.
I will retire out of the Army before we get them
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Given the leaps in terms of battery tech? The latest is likely when you're mustering out. The US has been investing in exoskeleton systems for decades, back during the Vietnam War to be specific. The only real thing that has been holding it back was the power supply.
Oh I know that, we are still a good damn away from it
Whiskey Golf
Lewd Battalion
Even the biggest heaviest trauma plates don't cover the entire body. They protect the lungs and the major organs, but you can still die from taking a round in the shoulder, in the face, in the balls. There are diminishing returns with armor, weight and cost penalties involved in going up, increased soldier fatigue. Sure, body armor is going to get better, but this overmatch obsession is just, I submit, another symptomatic manifestation of the cult of the rifleman and the Afghanistan experience.
Which, let's recall, was Taliban engaging from beyond 400 meters with Dragunov, GPMG, and RPG.
Which, let's recall, was Taliban engaging from beyond 400 meters with Dragunov, GPMG, and RPG.
Doomsought
Well-known member
Not just smokeless propellants, we are also at the edge of what can be done with a buttstock and the human shoulder.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
That changes with power armor/combat exoskeletons... but that deserves its own thread.
The FG-42 is very controllable when fired at full auto from the shoulder, and it was chambered for the 8mm Mauser cartridge. Between that rifle and guns like the Ultimax, I wonder what improvements can be made with balanced action and constant recoil designs that spread out the recoil impulse. Rifles like the M-16 and the M-4 didn't need such systems to be controllable under full auto, but as the US military starts increasing the caliber and trying to get the most bang for their buck out of each cartridge, I can't help but wonder if future infantry weapon designs will prove you wrong.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Not really, it's just that we've been using intermediate rounds for so long that we didn't put much investment when it came to recoil control when shouldering a rifle. The rounds don't have the recoil to make that necessary...
... and I've been ninja'd. It should also be noted that the FG-42 was designed almost entirely of lightweight materials so they can have the paratroopers use it immediately and not go on a weapon quest the moment they touched down.
Even Gun Jesus went 'the hype was real' when he fired the weapon in full auto standing up and shouldering it:
Essentially, shoulder stocks have been lagging behind overall because the need isn't as prominent anymore. Not only that, it is very likely that future rifles in new cartridges will be bullpups sooner than later, partially because while we've made rounds like the 5.56NATO play nice with short barrels, it is likely that you're going to need longer barrels with the new rounds to penetrate the armor... which leads to the situation where bullpups are going to be standard...
GD bid is a bullpup, for both Rifle and LMG.
Oddly enough, what makes a gun like the M240 difficult to fire standing it the weight, it is not that bad firing, neither is the SAW on the shoulder
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
I keep forgetting about that.
Actually, the weight is due to the M240's mission profile and powder load requirements. If I remember right, to have lengthy bursts or continuous fire with 7.62NATO you'll need something that can take the heat and pressure, and it is only recently that we've improved metallurgy enough that being light, maintaining that capability, being durable enough to take the pressure, and keeping it cheap(ish) isn't mutually exclusive anymore.