Merkels Operation Walküre - Discussion

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
He is acting logically,becouse he really saw commies as bigger danger.And rightly so.

Problem is - you made him acting logically,but in the same time made USA,germans and Polish goverment idiots.

USA,becouse their military made zerg rush against germans,and their politicians ,while most of them was soviet useful idiots,behave now as mindless automatons with "kill germans" order.Which would be possible only if Stalin ordered them so.

germans,becouse they knew that Stalin or other soviet leader would start WW3 with nuking germany ,but still made peace with them,althought there were 3 ways to easily destroy them.Known to germans.
Only explanation is that Merkel is STASI and do that to help soviets take over Europe.

Poles,becouse most of our politicians still try to made deal with spviets after they take away half of our country,and nationalists do not joined becouse they knew,that soviets would break any agreement.
And now they refused to talk even when Merkel finally agreed to pay for german crimes,which she is refusing now.
Becouse USA told so_Our current leaders could do so,but politicians from 1944 had working brains.Until author of this story removed them.

Interesting,why so many politicians was made idiots here.To made old prussian dream about alliance with Russia true? sorry,Russia was murdered by soviets.You could not have deal with corpse.And soviets would break any agreement made with germans and backstab them,becouse they are,well,soviets.


Well, I already had answered it before, but I do now again.

I want to let the politicians act as realistic as possible. I know, realism and ISOTs are oxymorons, but I try.

As for Merkel and the other German politicians: They are very aware, that they deal with Stalin. And nothing would make them happy, to go to Moscow or even Wladiwostok and shoot him a 9 mm bullet in his brain. Or a 800 mm if needed. However, they can't afford doing so. If the WAllies had made peace, there would be no need to accept Stalin's offer. And if she had taken Baku, she would think at least twice. The problem is, the Germans fight a two fronts war they really can't afford. They need resources, especially oil. To have a chance, they need a save source of resources to win a war against the other side. Here Stalin made the move at first. Why? He was a very cautious man. Until Bagration there had been secret negotiations with Hitler. But they led, obviously, nowhere. Here the persons are others. And Stalin sees, that he is playing with high cards. Can he win by sending every man he had? Yes, IF the German resources are depleted before. But here chances are great, the Germans capture Baku and if he had sent everyone then, well, then it's game over. He finally is changing his strategy. He can't loot Germany, but he still can much for free. And with giving the WAllies the guilt, he can even save his face.

Is he a danger for the future? Damn right. Can this haunt the Germans one day? Yes, it can. Germany shall not do everything right now. They shall make errors. And not all errors are without an excuse or are forced to do so.

The other candidate was Churchill, but he was too reluctant to act, as he feared FDR. Now, with the Soviets making peace, he tries to save, what he can. He's currently biting into his ass for not acting earlier (German proverb for being angry at yourself, it fits better this way than saying he kicks himself).

FDR is the next one. The US had never lost a war. They were winning. He had said this. Everytime. That's a point, when politicians are forced or better feel forced to continue, as their electors would make a problem, if they wouldn't continue. That and his personal feelings against Germany. For him it was a shock, or more than that. He was about to control the British and was winning against Germany and Japan. But Germany, as I already said before, is no longer the boxer in the ropes, but an enraged gorilla. And then he sees a possibility to win. And he is using it, over the point, where anyone else had stopped. He can't be the first president to lose a war. And he can't allow Germany to become the Über-super-power. That and his sickness will lead him to the point, where he can only go on. And he still has a chance. Well, there are two, but one is very realistic!

As for the Poles, well, they are in a very similar situation. We have very nationalistic politicians, who overestimate their position. That was true before the war and is true now. Also the Nazi years were not the best years for Poland and the Poles are not very keen about the Germans. No, not really. So they, too, think they can't make peace without enraging their population as well. They would gain nothing but indeed lose territory. So they carry on.

The Polish governments in the interbellum years had the outstaning quality to PO both great neighbours. That wasn't too wise. And they are not much wiser now.

This is my reasoning.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Well, I already had answered it before, but I do now again.

I want to let the politicians act as realistic as possible. I know, realism and ISOTs are oxymorons, but I try.

As for Merkel and the other German politicians: They are very aware, that they deal with Stalin. And nothing would make them happy, to go to Moscow or even Wladiwostok and shoot him a 9 mm bullet in his brain. Or a 800 mm if needed. However, they can't afford doing so. If the WAllies had made peace, there would be no need to accept Stalin's offer. And if she had taken Baku, she would think at least twice. The problem is, the Germans fight a two fronts war they really can't afford. They need resources, especially oil. To have a chance, they need a save source of resources to win a war against the other side. Here Stalin made the move at first. Why? He was a very cautious man. Until Bagration there had been secret negotiations with Hitler. But they led, obviously, nowhere. Here the persons are others. And Stalin sees, that he is playing with high cards. Can he win by sending every man he had? Yes, IF the German resources are depleted before. But here chances are great, the Germans capture Baku and if he had sent everyone then, well, then it's game over. He finally is changing his strategy. He can't loot Germany, but he still can much for free. And with giving the WAllies the guilt, he can even save his face.

Is he a danger for the future? Damn right. Can this haunt the Germans one day? Yes, it can. Germany shall not do everything right now. They shall make errors. And not all errors are without an excuse or are forced to do so.

The other candidate was Churchill, but he was too reluctant to act, as he feared FDR. Now, with the Soviets making peace, he tries to save, what he can. He's currently biting into his ass for not acting earlier (German proverb for being angry at yourself, it fits better this way than saying he kicks himself).

FDR is the next one. The US had never lost a war. They were winning. He had said this. Everytime. That's a point, when politicians are forced or better feel forced to continue, as their electors would make a problem, if they wouldn't continue. That and his personal feelings against Germany. For him it was a shock, or more than that. He was about to control the British and was winning against Germany and Japan. But Germany, as I already said before, is no longer the boxer in the ropes, but an enraged gorilla. And then he sees a possibility to win. And he is using it, over the point, where anyone else had stopped. He can't be the first president to lose a war. And he can't allow Germany to become the Über-super-power. That and his sickness will lead him to the point, where he can only go on. And he still has a chance. Well, there are two, but one is very realistic!

As for the Poles, well, they are in a very similar situation. We have very nationalistic politicians, who overestimate their position. That was true before the war and is true now. Also the Nazi years were not the best years for Poland and the Poles are not very keen about the Germans. No, not really. So they, too, think they can't make peace without enraging their population as well. They would gain nothing but indeed lose territory. So they carry on.

The Polish governments in the interbellum years had the outstaning quality to PO both great neighbours. That wasn't too wise. And they are not much wiser now.

This is my reasoning.

Destroing Baku means victory in few months.Add giving soviets kolchoz lands,and germans would not even fight as infrantry,soviets would do that for them.
Read "Illusion" by Jurgen Thorwald about how germans could win using soviets.
So,german could easily win, they do not need any deals.

Stalin planned WW3,soviets in 1985 planned the same with 600+ tactical nukes destroing german military as beginning.Merkel must knew that.Now,some soviet would made that real about 1970.
But,hence Merkel here is either idiot or STASI,she do not care.

FDR was dying,and his cronies decided what to do - people who was soviet useful idiots.They would attack only if Stalin wanted to.

Poland - Yes,germans/not nazis/ genocides us,but the same did soviets.And people who ruled us still try made deal with soviets,when they win war.When german win war,they would do the same.
If Merkel this time agree to pay for GERMAN crimes,they would agree in seconds.
Do not mistake polish leaders from 1944 with idiots from 1939 or 2020.

P.S dying for USA, when they knew that they gave us to soviets for free ? even Kaczyński would not be that stupid.
 
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Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
Well, to my knowledge, Skorzeny was not involved into war crimes. The only thing he did, was to fight in US uniforms during the Ardennes offensive. As this hadn't happen and as he was found not guilty*, as the WAllies had done the very same, I see, in this regard, no problems, especially as he fought in Minsk as well. He was a Nazi nonetheless, and as such he feared, he would be held responsible for his actions. In OTL he later became an agent of the Mossad, just to prevent a similar fate of Eichmann.

Here Canaris re-formed a secret unit to fight for the Abwehr as the Abwehr had to give the control over the Brandenburger up at 1943. Since then commando actions were done by other units not under his command. So he decided to form another unit, the Wildgänse (wild geese), or, officially, the Nachrichtenabteilung z.b.V. 17. Skorzeny, as a capable combat leader, was "persuaded" to join. Well, one told him, it would be better for him to join. Then he would have not many problems later. Also one wanted to control him. Skorzeny just wanted to save his ass. He is very aware, that as top Nazi he will get some problems later. On this way he has less to fear.

Skorzeny is a Nazi, yes. But he was flexible enough to work for the Mossad. And he could do much damage. So IMO it was better to "buy" him and control him.

The Chinese and Japanese had asked the Germans for help, if Mao could evade the attack on his HQ. And here is a problem. Germany may not transfer captured persons to other countries, if they have to fear an execution. So an official unit could not do so.

Captain Wang was a Taiwanese businessman working for a Taiwanese firm, but has continental Chinese roots. His grandmother had been raped by Mao once when he was still a child. Over the she never came over and finally committed suicide decades later. That was the only reason, why Wang accepted to join this mission. He had joined the Bundeswehr just after the attack, just in the small hope, he would get this mission. That he succeeded, was, for him, winning the lotto jackpot.


*Indeed the court ruled, that any soldier being caught during such an attack could be shot as spy, they also argued, that this was later not the case.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Ah...so Mao is dead. That can only be good for China. That little bastard actually killed more Chinese than the Japanese ever did.
Few more times,actually.And was cynical enough to say to japaneese socialist who come to ask for forgivness for japaneese crimes,that he do not mind,becouse thanks to that he could get power.

But soviets still rule - and since all soviets leader planned WW3 starting with nuking Germany,now they would do that.Becouse all what made them stop was fear of american retaliation.Now,when USA would not mind....
Poor author.He wonted german wank,but created soviet one.
 
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Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
ATP, this is my story! I don't want to be insulted by you. If you don't like my story, well, you don't need to read it. Nobody is forcing you to do so!
 

Dara

New member
ATP, this is my story! I don't want to be insulted by you. If you don't like my story, well, you don't need to read it. Nobody is forcing you to do so!
Well, he did the same on SufficientVelocity...
In my opinion there is a big difference between constructive criticism of a story and sarcastic comments that only discourage an author and are borderline insulting.
By the way I find it more than questionable to make comments such as „rapefugees“ and „STASI Merkel“.
It‘s not what I would call a civilized style of arguing or commenting.
But That‘s only my personal opinion...
Please continue your story. I like it!
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
I will continue my story. I had once decided to regard ATP as troll, I do it again now. Who says, that refugees, who partly fled over open sea in a sinking nut shell, are all "rapefugees" shows a political attitude I despise. "Stasi Merkel" is another reason.

@ATP, I am regarding you as a troll. Nobody here is forced to ready anything. So if you think my story is that bad, you're free to leave this story.
 

Dara

New member
@Tyr Anazasi , have you considered to continue your timeline about the Central Powers and USA swapping places in 1917?
I started reading it on ah.com some time ago and liked it a lot!
 

ATP

Well-known member
I will continue my story. I had once decided to regard ATP as troll, I do it again now. Who says, that refugees, who partly fled over open sea in a sinking nut shell, are all "rapefugees" shows a political attitude I despise. "Stasi Merkel" is another reason.

@ATP, I am regarding you as a troll. Nobody here is forced to ready anything. So if you think my story is that bad, you're free to leave this story.

???? it is your story.And you could wrote whatever you like.And i would like any good written wank,even if good germans there would kill any bad poles.

Problem is,you are forget about so many facts,that it look like parody.
Facts,like:
1.Stalin and all soviets who replaced him planned WW3 starting with nuking Germany ,only reason why Stalin did not attack was becouse he get killed,and soviet commanders in 1985 undarstandt,that Reagan would go for full war in which they would die.
Now,with USA hating Germany, soviets could attack as fast as they get 600+ nukes they need.Thanks to German technology provided by Merkel - about 1970 here.

2.Polish politicians was pragmatists who in OTL tried made deal with soviets - you made them idiots dumber that Kaczyński.

3.President Trump is american patriot,you made him german clown.And other american patriots turned into good germans.

4.Canaris and other german officers was very capable - you made him idiot who micromanage taking some small fry.Not mention turkish superman,who magically become loyal to Germany.


So, i do not mind that you wrote fairy tales about poles being nationalists who hunted jews - if that was true,germans would not need to bulit german death camps,after all ,just like Hutu do not need it - but that you made germans idiots,who would help soviet take over Europe.

Only good thing - Japan and China would remain free,USA too.And they eventually liberate Europe.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
@Tyr Anazasi , have you considered to continue your timeline about the Central Powers and USA swapping places in 1917?
I started reading it on ah.com some time ago and liked it a lot!

Currently that's on hold. I have 4 stories and two I am writing for now. It would be too much, so the other two are on hold.

I guess there are three or four posts in this chapter, before we come to the next one. That will be a calm one, with much less fighting. Take your breath, as then the final of ww2 comes.

Oh, and Stalin has still a role to play. Later.
 

Tank23

Member
these new chapters have been interesting. Although the parts of the situations in Italy and Poland are missing, the two governments of Italy know that they are in a bad situation and that their allies do not trust them, the best that Italian politicians can hope is that their country does not end up divided.

As for the situation in Poland is complicated since anyone who is in charge will not accept a situation that makes him lose territory to Germany, Lithuania and Russia, in addition to being bitter for being a German vassal state.

The Balkans will be quite calm and the biggest points of conflict will be in some parts of Yugoslavia, mainly Serbian and Communist.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
In Italy there is a more or less calm situation. The Germans fortified behind the Gothic line, as there were too few forces to spare. Mussolini and his fascist state were disbanded. The Kingdom of Italy was recognized as the legitimate government of Italy.

In contrast to the WAllies, the Italians are very aware, that their turn to move sides has backfired. But they, too, have few possibilities. At first the Germans, who were twice betrayed by them, don't trust them completely. And there are way too many WAllied soldiers in the country and too few Italian forces to act. Currently they don't even dare to make secret talks to the Germans, just because of that. Another attempt to switch sides could end in a desaster.

The Polish government in exile simply can't accept such a peace offered by the Germans for the reason I gave and @Tank23 has added as well.

On the Balkan there isn't much fighting yet. The Commies were in disarray and since Stalin has made peace, they are highly discouraged to do anything. The new governments in Hungary, Slovakia and Croatia are consolidating their power, Romania and Bulgaria are looking at Stalin, who is peaceful. And indeed will be for the next years. Bosnia is part of Croatia, but the Bosnians recognized as Croatians, although they are still muslims. The Greek are split, as on the mainland and most of the islands the Greek hate the Germans, but on the Dodecanese the Greek administration was de facto reinstalled (which happened OTL as well). The worst time have the Serbs, were there are still partisans active. And although the pressure there is nothing comapred to the time before, it is still not nice. While no villages are burnt, the number of Partisans captured got lower. And there are still cases, in which civilians were hit as collateral damages, which is true not in all cases. Partisan wars are ugly and stay so, although not on the scale like before.

Albania was liberated again and has the Albanian parts of Macedonia. The other part is part of Bulgaria.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
I'm back. I had (and still have) much to do in RL. Thus I won't post here much, but there will be new parts, soon.

Thanks to @Darksoul2142 for editing.
 

ATP

Well-known member
American being idiots again - it would be OK,if they were pro-soviet idiots just like in OTL.But since Sralin made peace with Germany,FDR would follow - he always did what soviets told.
In that case,England and Poland would follow him.

Real problems - 1944 germans who happilly slaughtered poles,jews and others during WW2 and do not considered it wrong thing.Now germany would win,keep polish lands,so...from their point of viev,why not vote for NSDAP ? they were right if they keep what they stolen.
Your Germany would be in NSDAP hands in few years.

And Sralin planned WW3 after next purge - now he do so,becouse he would kill those who purged him in OTL.Kruszczow and Beria are arleady dead.

So,after 1960 we would have war - started with nuking german cities,just like soviet planned in 1983.Even if you kill Sralin,next first secretary would start war - you need soviets destroyed if you want avoid it.

Main german mistake after 1918 is making deals with Moscov - becouse soviet ruled Moscow would alwayd try conqer them.
Only reason why crime of Partition worked is becouse prussian thief made deal with german empress ruling in Petersburg.
As long as Russia is ruled by no-germans,they could made deal over polish bodies - but attack germans next.
 

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