Mass Effect Mass Effect general thread

[Darth Robbhi]

The Cerberus aspect also makes no sense given that Shepard constantly messed with everything of theirs that she came across, and worse yet, depending on the background you picked for your Shepard, they could have been a victim of one of their messed up experiments. Not to mention how they went from a rogue military black-ops group that did their best to hide, sourcing their ships and planetside habitats from multiple sources so they won't be traceable, etc. to being a loud and proud privately funded organization that slaps their logo on everything, to being a huge army that you have to fight more often than the Reapers that are invading the whole galaxy. I really couldn't get over all the hand-waving that was done to excuse all the frankly evil stuff you learned about them doing in the first game to convince you they totally weren't an evil organization to just give up on that for the next game anyway.

I suspect that was kind of the point. Were they pure evil? Were they just overboard? Was it bad press? Did the left hand know what the right was doing? Or were you being seduced? Or corrupted? Or fleecing them?

I found it a very interesting set of circumstances to play out, especially after the white knighting of Shep in ME1. It very much was a 'how far will you go' moment. A lot of that evil was swept under the rug as 'rogue elements' by Miranda and the Illusive Man, as you'd expect.

The shift from gray back to black after the end of ME2 before ME3 began was very jarring by comparison. I suspect the designers intended it to be a road to hell paved with good intentions moment, especially with the Reapers using the Illusive Man as their catspaw. But they needed more foreshadowing, and more of the 'bad Cerberus' from ME3 incorporated into ME2 to really work that storyline.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the entire Cerberus plot ended up badly mishandled because of that. That and the fact that Cerberus seemed almost infinitely strong in ME3, in a way that kind of broke suspension of disbelief.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

I think the entire Cerberus plot ended up badly mishandled because of that. That and the fact that Cerberus seemed almost infinitely strong in ME3, in a way that kind of broke suspension of disbelief.

Agreed, though ME2 did indicate the Illusive Man had considerable reach and a whole lot of money.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

ME 1 was good (well game play had issues, but plot/story wise).
ME 2 was generally better gameplay wise (although going to disposable heat sinks was crap) and expanded the plot in a somewhat decent manner; although it screwed up some of the ME1 story building in a big way.
ME 3 was absolute garbage in terms of story, plot, and world building but the game play was pretty good.

 

[Tyzuris]

One thing I liked how ME1 you really felt your progress. In the first fights at Eden Prime you really get overwhelmed by the Geth and can die easily. At the Battle of the Citadel on the other hand one just pwns their way through Geth. Like on my biotic character I just lifted and threw geth out of my way to float to interstellar void while blasting my way through the geth. I felt like I had achieved serious amounts of progress and turned from a newb to a certified special operative who cuts through foes like hot knife through butter.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Agreed, though ME2 did indicate the Illusive Man had considerable reach and a whole lot of money.

Yes, but it also suggested he had limits. The Normandy and it's crew represented a considerable portion of Cerberus's total resources, it's hard to sell a jump from "building one light cruiser was a major investment" to "We have fleets of top of the line warships".

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, the only thing that really makes sense is that massive amounts of Reaper technology were given to establish nano-fabrication shipyards.... But even then, the crews seem implausible. And it's clear by ME3 then that Cerberus was just 100% an extension of the Reaper War Machine, which I don't really think was the intention. But it's how they come across.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

Yes, but it also suggested he had limits. The Normandy and it's crew represented a considerable portion of Cerberus's total resources, it's hard to sell a jump from "building one light cruiser was a major investment" to "We have fleets of top of the line warships".

I mean, the only thing that really makes sense is that massive amounts of Reaper technology were given to establish nano-fabrication shipyards.... But even then, the crews seem implausible. And it's clear by ME3 then that Cerberus was just 100% an extension of the Reaper War Machine, which I don't really think was the intention. But it's how they come across.

@Battlegrinder, that assumes Miranda and Shep were told the truth, anyway. They did emphasize the compartmentalized, almost cell-like operation of Cerberus, and other than around Omega and the Illusive Man's station, I don't recall too many Cerberus capital fleets. IIRC, it was mostly raids and amphibious assault ops. Though I also suspect the bulk of the expense was in prototyping, and not the actual construction. Especially if Cerberus was using Reaper tech from the other side of the Omega 4 relay to mass produce.

@Captain-General, the crews may actually be the easy part. By ME3, Cerberus was clearly augmenting and indoctrinating their staff. The Sanctuary levels state that refugees were being used for human experimentation by Lawson, but I doubt that was the only thing they were using Horizon for. Pressing the refugees into service as Cerberus troopers, especially if they're Reaper augmented and indoctrinated. Especially if you ramped up your recruiting machine at the same time.

I agree that Cerberus was effectively part of the Reaper war machine, but I think that was the intent. Perhaps not openly, but as a cat's paw. But it's pretty clear to me the designers intended us to realize that the Illusive Man was corrupted by the reaper tech, and thus under their control to sow defeat, dissention and whatnot.

 

[Deleted member]

@Darth Robbhi , okay, that's a fair assessment.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

@Darth Robbhi , okay, that's a fair assessment.

I very much see Cerberus in ME2/ME3 as the protagonist in a Greek Aristotelian tragedy. The only bit really missing is the Illusive Man realizing he was the pawn of the Reapers before he died.

The canon is full of betrayal by key assets who are Reaper pawns, and how they gave the Universe poisoned chalices. The Illusive Man is much like another Saren, who thought he had the upper hand until he very much didn't.

Those plot aspects are some of the most appealing parts of the universe.

 

[Battlegrinder]

@Battlegrinder, that assumes Miranda and Shep were told the truth, anyway. They did emphasize the compartmentalized, almost cell-like operation of Cerberus, and other than around Omega and the Illusive Man's station, I don't recall too many Cerberus capital fleets. IIRC, it was mostly raids and amphibious assault ops. Though I also suspect the bulk of the expense was in prototyping, and not the actual construction. Especially if Cerberus was using Reaper tech from the other side of the Omega 4 relay to mass produce.

As I recall, the info on Cerberus comes from EDI, not Miranda, and either one should be in a position to know roughly what Cerberus is capable of, even if they didn't know what any given cell was doing.

As for the expense and "but repair tech" thing:
Mass Effect Retrospective 40: TIM Island - Twenty Sided

 

[Deleted member]

I very much see Cerberus in ME2/ME3 as the protagonist in a Greek Aristotelian tragedy. The only bit really missing is the Illusive Man realizing he was the pawn of the Reapers before he died.

The canon is full of betrayal by key assets who are Reaper pawns, and how they gave the Universe poisoned chalices. The Illusive Man is much like another Saren, who thought he had the upper hand until he very much didn't.

Those plot aspects are some of the most appealing parts of the universe.

The potential of that plot was mishandled with the issues that ME3 had to the point Cerberus doesn’t seem to follow the theme.

 

[Big Steve]

Honestly, it might've worked better if they'd just outright said Cerberus was embedded in the Systems Alliance government and military and that most of their fleet was captured/seized SA vessels, or done more with the idea of them seizing Omega from Aria T'Loak by having it where Cerberus has quietly assumed the dominant position in the Terminus Systems, and that's where they're fleet came from. Back in ME1 the prospect of conflict with Terminus was a restraint on the Citadel Council, and there was some implication that a war wiith them would be messy, at the very least. That should've been followed up with this: Cerberus, with Omega as their main base, has usurped or otherwise aligned so many of the Terminus systems with their banner that they control Terminus' industries and fleet. Combined with the Reaper invasion, it makes them a deadly threat, since so much of the galaxy's military is getting ground down trying to stop the Reapers.

 

[Deleted member]

@Big Steve yes, that would have worked better than what we got... But we got what we got.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

@Big Steve yes, that would have worked better than what we got... But we got what we got.

Which is a universe full of wonder. And still ripe for exploitation. An amazing game would revolve around Shep's background, though you would lose many of the wonderful supporting characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Which is a universe full of wonder. And still ripe for exploitation. An amazing game would revolve around Shep's background, though you would lose many of the wonderful supporting characters.

The ending is still so terrible that I mostly just like fixits.

 

[bullethead]

The ending is still so terrible that I mostly just like fixits.

There's a reason why I literally made my Mass Effect/Gundam crossover fic take place in an AU where the Reapers are dead. The Reaper plot line is pure poison for maintaining audience interest due to how it ends.

 

[Deleted member]

There's a reason why I literally made my Mass Effect/Gundam crossover fic take place in an AU where the Reapers are dead. The Reaper plot line is pure poison for maintaining audience interest due to how it ends.

Pushing back, though, it is central to the story. But the resolution, of course, is worse than the disease. Though I am constitutionally incapable of choosing any ending except Destroy.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

Pushing back, though, it is central to the story. But the resolution, of course, is worse than the disease. Though I am constitutionally incapable of choosing any ending except Destroy.

The Reapers make a good setting, but they're apocalyptic by design. The ending has to be destructive, cathartic and vaguely Christ-like, where Shepherd is sacrificed for the win. It's the whole last stand Hail Mary play, where you win but the hero dies in the end. I don't think a ME1 style ending, where you kill the bad guy, save the universe, get a parade and have the love interest collapse in your arms fits the whole end of the world build-up in ME3. Too many people faced too many problems that could only be solved by being a kamikaze.

I've only played the patched ending though, and my views may well be colored by the fact I first played ME3 in 2017 during my own apocalyptic event, where it looked to be 6-5 and pick 'em if we were going to be alive in the morning. Given my own proclivities, and how I always manage to resolve the Quarian-Geth war with an everybody wins type ending, I choose synthesis. But I am also the world's worst video game supervillain. The whole Reaper plotline is how a computer chooses to resolve the paradox. Destroy has too many downsides, including shutting off all spaceflight via mass relay (and destroying the systems they are located in), while control is tainted by the Illusive Man's path.

However, the entire end of the world storyline really closes out post-event fiction. Apocalypses really only lend themselves to one kind of storyline afterward - picking up the pieces. Those are hard, and often feel anticlimactic. Having gone through two end of the world and "how do we all go back to normal?" situations, the anticlimactic feel is real, but again, that doesn't make a very satisfying story for many people. The best stories are prequels, or where the Reapers are a specter at the feast, but offstage.

 

[Deleted member]

@Darth Robbhi sure, I agree that Shepard dying is appropriate. My bigger issue is that the ending just seems to fail suspension of disbelief. Despite the creators denying it, "Shepard is indoctrinated and lost in hallucinations" is what it FEELS like.