LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

ShieldWife

Marchioness
For me it's a choice to be straight. Logically I think like this, I want to continue my bloodline and the only way to do that is smash someone from the opposite gender. It's biologically useless putting your dick in a guys asshole. It's like having a key to the wrong door and putting the key in anyway. "Haha look at me putting a key in a door that doesn't do anything".
This seems like a very odd statement to make. You felt no natural inclination to prefer sex with women over sex with men? When you see a pretty girl walk by, do you feel a sense of attraction and desire for her completely outside of the logical consideration of the possibility of children? Do you feel the same sense when you see an attractive guy? Almost everybody I've ever discussed the topic with felt some degree of sexual attraction (to whoever they end up being attracted to) at a relatively young age before consideration of children really becomes a serious issue.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Nature is full of examples in everything from fruit flies on up to the great apes.


Really, so when did you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex? For me it just happened - I never consciously started becoming attracted to women, I just was.
I mean you are choosing to be straight right now. I'm assuming there is nothing stopping you from going out and being with a man if you decided to do it? There isn't a forcefield that will stop you, your body won't be hijacked to stop you from it. But you know after thinking about it, I can say that it is possible for someone to not choose to be a homosexual. Like those people who accidently have gay sex. The ones who get tricked by trannies. I'm assuming those people thought the trans person was a real girl and did not find out until it was too late.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I mean you are choosing to be straight right now.
I am not "choosing" anything - I am simply attracted to who I am attracted to. This is the result of chemical reactions in my brain, and is completely beyond my control. This is true no matter what sex a person is attracted to. The only choice anyone has is in what actions they take, but they do not choose to be attracted to who they are attracted.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
I am not "choosing" anything - I am simply attracted to who I am attracted to. This is the result of chemical reactions in my brain, and is completely beyond my control. This is true no matter what sex a person is attracted to. The only choice anyone has is in what actions they take, but they do not choose to be attracted to who they are attracted.

I accept you.

I don't care if your strait, gay, or bi your a chill dude and that what matters to me.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
So for the first time, a majority of Republicans believe gay marriage should be legal:
Yeah, I certainly don't think that this is a hill that the GOP (or any conservative movement) should be dying on. Donald Trump, who energized conservatives like no other president in decades, wisely didn't try to fight gay marriage. The right wing in the USA is fighting for it's survival and I don't think that being anti-gay is a winning strategy.

Honestly, I have always thought that making a big deal out of opposing gay marriage was unwise for conservatism. Easy for me to say though, since I'm not opposed to homosexuality.
 
Last edited:

Doomsought

Well-known member
Honestly, I have always that making a big deal out of opposing gay marriage was unwise for the conservatism. Easy for me to say though, since I'm not opposed to homosexuality.
I disagree. The concession was basically what caused conservativism to become ideologically crippled. We need extreme conservatism to anchor the conservative movement. When that failed, the conservatives have ended up getting pulled along until they are just the democrats of ten years ago.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
I disagree. The concession was basically what caused conservativism to become ideologically crippled. We need extreme conservatism to anchor the conservative movement. When that failed, the conservatives have ended up getting pulled along until they are just the democrats of ten years ago.
The concession is only quite recent. Trump is the first presidential candidate to run on being alright with gay marriage. Bush, McCain, and Romney before him opposed gay marriage and so did Barack Obama officially when he ran in 2008. Bush, McCain, and Romney all represented a crippled conservatism, if even that. In fact, the Republican Party has been betraying conservatism for many decades and until recently has actually opposed gay marriage, which is a hollow gesture, while at the same time caving in on most of the important issues. Trump, the GOP candidate who was alright with gay marriage, is the first successful Republican Party leader in many decades who has actually represented his conservative base and worked for a conservative agenda. Of course, most of that has nothing to do with gay marriage, aside from the fact that guys like W could trick American conservatives into believing he was on their side because he tried to ban gay marriage while he sold us out on all the issues that mattered.

I agree in part, that Republicans do need to stand on strong solid conservative principles so that they can be more than just Democrat-light. They haven't really done that in generations and gay marriage isn't that strong issue anyway.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Honestly, I have always that making a big deal out of opposing gay marriage was unwise for the conservatism. Easy for me to say though, since I'm not opposed to homosexuality.
The reason for the opposition to Gay Marriage, at least at a movement/strategic level, was never about Gay Marriage. Heck, Democrat / Progressive support for Gay Marriage at a strategic level was ALSO never about Gay Marriage.

It was always about damaging Christian Churches.

Starting in the late 70s, but very much through the 80s and 90s, the "Moral Majority" was a major, MAJOR player in national level politics. It's organizational power was due to a few national organizations, but also due to the, well, for lack of a better way of putting it, the politicization of the conservative Churches in the US, them becoming politically engaged in a way they hadn't since the early 20th century. Part of this was due to the collapse of the fairness doctrine spurring the rise of Talk Radio. Most people think of Rush Limbaugh, but there was also a MASSIVE conservative Christian talk radio circuit, with many cities having an actual, outright Christian TALK RADIO station that tended to focus on broadcasts of sermons, actual talk radio shows that were basically local Christian talk radio, and also served as platforms for the radio messaging of organizations like Focus on the Family, etc.

This hybrid top down + bottom up organizing terrified Democrats, and served as major ways that Republicans ended up getting out the vote in the 90s. Plus these were media environments completely independent from the elite mainstream media that pushed the left wing narrative even then.

Further in this time you saw the explosion of homeschooling and conservative Christian private schools removing children from public education, getting better results on tests and outcomes, and these radio and organizations all worked to support and expand those efforts.

The issue was, they literally had no avenue to attack them, not legally at least. The Courts kept coming down on the side of home and private schools, quickly eroding attempts to litigate them out of existence, with the HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association) basically using the model of the ACLU and other old left wing civil rights legal funds to be an effective shield.

So what could be done? They needed an issue that they could in turn weaponize against these conservative Christian groups in a way that allowed them to be taken to court and bled dry, and an issue that didn't make them look like the bad guys. Also, direct attacks on private schools could end up backfiring on their own children who went to elite private institutions, after all.

Enter LGBT issues. Most, if not all, conservative Christian private schools and organizations have moral codes they expected their membership to hold to, which included basic Christian sexual ethics (you know, no sex outside of marriage, don't look at porn, etc.). LGBT issues could very easily be used as an attack avenue on these organizations, since many were non-profits but were not explicitly CHURCHES, thus Civil Rights laws did not have explicit carveouts for them. By pushing LGBT issues, they had found an issue where they could demonize these Conservative Christians AND take them to court for discrimination, they just had to get the laws changed to include "sexual orientation" as a protected class.

Which they then proceeded to do as much as possible, starting with state level laws, which they quickly turned on private schools and ideological organizations to try and force them to hire LGBT staff. The courts ended up giving some protections to these private organizations, but in general this was an effective avenue of attack, though one thing ended up standing in the way of this angle: Religious Freedom Restoration Acts. Which, you'll note went from completely non-controversial in the 90s when the Federal RFRA was passed by near unanimous votes in both the House and Senate and immediately signed into law by the President, but now state level RFRAs face very stiff headwinds from the Progressive left as they had proved a stumbling block for corrupting/dismantling these private schools and organizations.

What does all this have to do with marriage? Well, marriage in western civilization has always been understood to have a major religious component. The Catholic Church considers it a Sacrament, which is a Big Fucking Deal for them (it is on par with Baptism, it is THAT important), and Protestant churches also treat it as a major thing. Remember, much of these organizational efforts originated in Churches, and many private Christian schools are attached, again, to Churches. The long term goal of same sex marriage was to be able to use it as an issue to attack and damage Churches directly for refusing to perform same-sex marriages. The quiet part was said out loud by O'Rouke in the Democratic presidential debates in 2019. Sure, the other ones denied it, but you can look around at how same sex marriage has been used to assail other private groups that aren't Churches to see it was always about damaging the conservative Christian institutional infrastructure and to marginalize and demonize them.

Back in the 90s, the conservative Christian media realized this and warned against it. That was why they fought as hard as they did on the issue, it was never about, to either side, the gays, it was always about destroying/protecting right wing institutions.

Now, did they go about it the right way? Probably not. There would been better ways to strategically handle the subject; however, that is hindsight talking, and what is past is past. But never, EVER, think that the Democrat's support for same sex marriage was ever about supporting LGBT rights, it was always, ALWAYS about damaging the right.
 

StormEagle

Well-known member
So for the first time, a majority of Republicans believe gay marriage should be legal:

Yes, I’m really going to believe a poll from the Public Religion Research Institute, which was founded by Robert P Jones. Who authored a luminary book called:White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity.

And makes such tweets as:



I’m really going to believe a poll from an organization founded by that hack.
 
Last edited:

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Sexual fetishes don’t have rights, not being humans or even physical things, but humans with sexual fetishes have rights. Whether or not marriage is a right is a legitimate question, as it is not mentioned in the US Constitution. If marriage is not a right, then that would be a strong case that marriage laws, including whether or not gays can get married, should be determined entirely by individual states.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
"Sorry ma the baby is broken." I'd argue they don't get special rights but they should get the rights garunteed to any American citizen.

Seriously with this kind of attitude, why not advocate for abortion?
But here is the thing if same sex marriage is banned homosexuals are not being denied any rights they aren’t being made 2nd class citizens. A gay man can marry a straight woman or a gay woman just like a straight man can marry a straight woman or gay woman. Same sex marriage now means a two straight men could also marry each other if they wanted. What rights did a straight man have before Obergefel that a gay man did not also have gay men could do the same thing straight men could do gay women could do the same thing straight women could do. That they did not want to is not the issue. They were equal.
 
But here is the thing if same sex marriage is banned homosexuals are not being denied any rights they aren’t being made 2nd class citizens. A gay man can marry a straight woman or a gay woman just like a straight man can marry a straight woman or gay woman. Same sex marriage now means a two straight men could also marry each other if they wanted. What rights did a straight man have before Obergefel that a gay man did not also have gay men could do the same thing straight men could do gay women could do the same thing straight women could do. That they did not want to is not the issue. They were equal.

I was getting the impression Doomsought meant LGBT people did not have rights period.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
It's disappointing to see someone who is an otherwise thoughtful and logical person get something so wrong. The attraction you feel to the opposite sex is not a fetish, and neither is the attraction LGB people feel.
Sexually attraction has a purpose, that is to get you married and having healthy babies. Any sexual desire that does not fit that purpose is at best a sequal fetish. What LGB people feel is just lust, a desire for self gratification through the use of another person's body. They are perverts, and nothing more.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Sexually attraction has a purpose, that is to get you married and having healthy babies. Any sexual desire that does not fit that purpose is at best a sequal fetish. What LGB people feel is just lust, a desire for self gratification through the use of another person's body. They are perverts, and nothing more.
Let's ask @Abhorsen to you, is it just list and being a pervert or is there more then what doom is saying
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top