LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

You don't have to do the exact same thing the enemy does to fight back against them. All we have to do, is actually uphold the laws and protections that are there. That is all that has needed to be done this entire time.
Except no, you absolutely need to roll back laws, you need to deal with the control social media has over the discussion, with how the education system is structured, with how immigration is in the United States as all of these pose absolute existential threats to the ability to have America look remotely how you want it to be.
pretty off base though. Yes, the Old Testament is about Abraham and his descendants being chosen by God, becoming the people of Israel, and the history of those people and prophecies regarding them. I'm curious what else you could have in mind that the Old Testament is about.
Abraham is said to be the father of many nations not one, it says that God divorces both Israel and Judea, these are two different nations following the split, Judaism comes directly from the Pharisee sect, rather than any of the other disparate Hebrew groups. And again, the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism is formed post dating Christianity. The Israelites were the Israelites, the Jews come specifically out of Judea/Judah, Jeremiah talks about how God as divorced the people of both kingdoms, Jesus says that those outside of the land of Israel will be sitting with Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham in heaven while those within will find themselves in hell.
Conservative Christians will probably never vote Democrat, even if they're abandoned by the GOP. Meanwhile, every LGBT voter that doesn't vote Republican will vote Democrat. Therefore, from a purely utilitarian perspective, it makes sense to side with the latter on certain issues over the former, because it would result in a net gain of votes.
Not the case. Actually, Trump lost LGBT votes from Romney who was perceived as a more socially conservative candidate who was against Gay Marriage while Trump wasn’t and made up exactly zero ground over 4 years of shilling from many LGBT pundits that have found themselves on the right. Meanwhile there were gains made in the black and Latino community, who are in higher opposition the LGBT issues and more socially conservative. What typically keeps them from voting is the hands off government free market politics that run through, other than the propaganda that R is all super racist and hates them. As such, economic populism and taking up positions that are about doing what’s best for the American people and not large corporations and special interests and social conservatism seems to be a better play to get more minority votes, who again, polling shows are often less in favor of LGBT issues than whites, rather than trying to appeal to the LGBT.
If Conservative Christians cannot share a party with the LGBs, then that's their problem.

Because the Libertarian and Fiscal Conservatives have no problem with us being in the party or tent, because they know the Far-Left is driving a lot of the sane ones away from the Dems.

So you can either compromise and accept us into the party, or throw your religious tantrums and lose out of the swing voters we represent.

Master Piece Cake shop was a fucked up thing, in that they were trying to be forced to cater the wedding (not just make a cake as the narrative often says), but that does not justify going after LGBs who vote R.

You can have a functional party with a wide ranges of views represented, or you can have religious purity in the party that makes it useless on the national stage; pick one.
Not the case lol. As I outlined the LGBT voted more for Romney who was opposed to gay marriage and more socially con than Trump who said it was a done deal, and he made up literally zero ground with them from 2016-2020. Opposition to gay marriage runs strongly through both socially conservative blacks and Hispanics who still vote democrat. You’d almost certainly make up more votes among them than lost by not LGBT shilling which makes up a tiny fraction of the GOP base provided you also go for economic populism which is more broadly appealing to these groups as well. I’m sorry, the strategic argument of “you must shill for the LGBT and drop social conservatism” doesn’t pan out, especially if you can just get enough of that sector of the right to opt not to vote provided that it goes that way. Shilling for the LGBT has not remotely panned out well, it’s a tiny fraction of Trump voters who will vote based on opposition to gay marriage, there is a vastly larger potential voting block where ground has been made up among blacks and hispanics who oppose gay marriage and are more socially conservative. And the same applies really. Are you gonna vote D even if you get 95% of what you want except for gay marriage? It floats the same exact way lol, and given your voting block you like is still way smaller and hasn’t shown actual appeal or viability whereas the other has, I don’t see how your strategy is remotely valid.
 
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I'm not going to play their game on this; I'm not going to make this a theological argument instead of a civic and legal one.

This is a fight they have already lost, and I am not going to humor them by pretending otherwise and 'debating' the issue.
This might be fun, but what it isn't is useful. This isn't how you go about convincing people to believe in LGBT rights, and that they are in the best interest of the religious community (which, given the amount of absolute degeneracy that has stopped, they definitely are).
 
This might be fun, but what it isn't is useful. This isn't how you go about convincing people to believe in LGBT rights, and that they are in the best interest of the religious community (which, given the amount of absolute degeneracy that has stopped, they definitely are).
You keep saying this but once again, I don’t think it has stopped much. More so, the heterosexual community has just also got stupid degenerate as well. The gap just closed more than anything. You seriously have shown little to anything it’s in the “best interest” of the religious community, because right now the entirety of the mainstream culture goes against it and I still do not see anything that would indicate that your somehow going to get even a significant portion of the LGBT to go “we should wait till marriage and then we need to be family oriented”. And once again, it’s inherently not equatable and with the numbers of the LGBT increasing that’s not a good thing. Especially B, B just shouldn’t exist and most of them would probably be better off just going off with Hetero relationships.
 
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Well at least you are being up front about the fact that the only reason we come even close to sharing a tent is because the Dems are just that crazy right now.

If the Evangelical/Conservative Christians want to form a more ideologically pure party outside of the GOP, I say do it. I'm not loyal to the GOP either, and feel the national level GOP is political controlled opposition for the Dems.

We need to cast off the two party system, and the more effective political parties their are, the harder it will be for any one group to hold too much power over the others.

If we can fracture both parties, and get 4-5 smaller, but still politically powerful parties on the other side of things, that might be best for the long term stability of the whole nation.
I actually rather like the idea of the Christian busybodies fucking off to their own party, but having everyone form their own party only really works if we can get the Democrats to do the same thing. Like, for example, getting the Labor types to go ahead and form their own party since they've recently gotten a good taste of what voting Democrat gets them. Of course the real problem is that with our first past the post style of voting, eventually things would just end up as two parties again.
 
I actually rather like the idea of the Christian busybodies fucking off to their own party, but having everyone form their own party only really works if we can get the Democrats to do the same thing. Like, for example, getting the Labor types to go ahead and form their own party since they've recently gotten a good taste of what voting Democrat gets them. Of course the real problem is that with our first past the post style of voting, eventually things would just end up as two parties again.
Why would the “Christian busy bodies” form their own party.

Republicans have consistently been the least likely to favor same-sex marriage, though they have warmed to the idea over the course of Gallup's trend, growing in support by 33 points. Since 2017, however, their views have remained stable, ranging from 44% to 49%.
and said support is dropping in youth. It’s not even the majority that support gay marriage, it’s at best 50/50. You also already have the libertarian party lol, and on top of that Trumpism derives from Paleoconservatism with nearly all the same positions except not quite as socially conservative, which ultimately didn’t win him much by not being so.
McCain - 27% in 2008
Romney-22% in 2012
Trump - 14% in 2016
Trump - 14

The LGBT are becoming a *smaller* portion of R voters and a less viable demographic to win, not more, even as a large mass of vocal pundits were put ahead from 2016 to 2020 who supported or were LGBT themselves. On the other hand, Hispanic and Black voting has increased. Black Americans are the least supporting of gay marriage at around 50% support, and there support increased under Trump. Doing more to appeal to them, even if it’s at the expense of LGBT support, would make up more votes overall, and in places that matter vastly more like the South where states are turning battle ground and have high black and Hispanic population, and particularly in ensuring Texas doesn’t flip which would make it in essence impossible to win.
 
You keep saying this but once again, I don’t think it has stopped much.
Yes, because you think mass orgies are happening at all the LGBT organizations, so I don't really value what you think. Also, you're ignoring the many times I've presented evidence to the contrary, about how more and more LGBT couples have become monogamous every year once marriage became a thing, for example.
 
It's just basic logic, really. Why would gay people want to get married if they were only interested in having multiple sex partners and/or going to mass orgies? Why would any of them want to adopt or have sperm donors or surrogates so they can start families, in the face of the left basically advocating for people to stop reproducing if they're only interested in having sex with as many people as possible?
 
Yes, because you think mass orgies are happening at all the LGBT organizations, so I don't really value what you think. Also, you're ignoring the many times I've presented evidence to the contrary, about how more and more LGBT couples have become monogamous every year once marriage became a thing, for example.
I think it happens in the culture because I grew up a stones throw away from gay Mecca where it absolutely happened in a gigantic festival in the streets every year that is one of its biggest events city wide, because when I was trying to enjoy the few wholesome things left in San Francisco you’d see shit like that everywhere. There’s only so much an abstract study can override what you’ve seen and experienced over and over and over again for a decade of your life. Even still I just don’t think that’s entirely accurate, especially as more and more the push has come to be okay with polyamory along with LGBT. It’s tied together and I’d honestly be surprised if you could show me any major organization or figure other than like, Dave Rubin or Milo that would even oppose that. And once more, I’ve shown that their votes for the more traditionalist party have literally halved since 2008. If they are getting so traditional, why are they voting even less so even as the position has been relaxed?

It's just basic logic, really. Why would gay people want to get married if they were only interested in having multiple sex partners and/or going to mass orgies?
Tax benefits and open relationships. Hedonism combined with having some stability. “””Best of both worlds””” mentality where you want to have lots and lots of sex with all kinds of people because it gets less exciting with just one person but also fear the loneliness of being out of a long term relationship. Similar to why any man would put up with being a cuck. You have a whore of a wife that is fucking whoever she wants but you put up with it out of crippling fear of not having someone with you. It’s why a lot of people won’t leave a relationship until another ones lined up or cheat, and it’s just cheating made fashionable and as if it were a good thing. It’s just another part of the totally subjective morality that’s become fashionable where you can’t have any judgement of any lifestyle, unless said lifestyle is pride in your heritage for a white guy or traditional masculinity.

Why would any of them want to adopt or have sperm donors or surrogates so they can start families, in the face of the left basically advocating for people to stop reproducing if they're only interested in having sex with as many people as possible?
Because people have an inherent urge and drive to have children, but that doesn’t override the urge and desire to have a lot of sex with a lot of people that’s also fairly present. You need a grounded moral basis and a reason to live that isn’t just new experiences and as much short term pleasure as possible to override the latter even as that overrides the former.
 
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At the risk of opening up a can of worms, but if things really are so reconcilable, Why are we not killing each other? "join us or die" is Essentially a more violent way of saying "we're not leaving this land" and I don't see anybody on either side moving to Europe or Africa anytime soon.

I know nobody likes the V word or the W word around here but I can't help but think it's an elephant in the room that needs to be addressed.

Human nature pretty much states if you can't stand to gaze upon your enemy you either kill them or you move to another land.

Edit: I'm not advicating for violece (Quite the oppisite) but the amount of hot air in forums like this (and nationwide) is ridiculous.
 
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I think it happens in the culture because I grew up a stones throw away from gay Mecca where it absolutely happened in a gigantic festival in the streets every year that is one of its biggest events city wide, because when I was trying to enjoy the few wholesome things left in San Francisco you’d see shit like that everywhere. There’s only so much an abstract study can override what you’ve seen and experienced over and over and over again for a decade of your life. Even still I just don’t think that’s entirely accurate, especially as more and more the push has come to be okay with polyamory along with LGBT. It’s tied together and I’d honestly be surprised if you could show me any major organization or figure other than like, Dave Rubin or Milo that would even oppose that. And once more, I’ve shown that their votes for the more traditionalist party have literally halved since 2008. If they are getting so traditional, why are they voting even less so even as the position has been relaxed?
No, their votes for the more traditionalist party didn't halve. 27% voted for Trump, while only 64% voted for Biden in 2020, which is the lowest that have ever gone for the democrats, and the 27% is one of the best ever. On top of that, they are trending towards the republican party, as the democratic party has done nothing for them and has nothing to offer.

Your citation of GLAAD is just wrong. You can find all the % from exit polls or on wikipedia.
 
No, their votes for the more traditionalist party didn't halve. 27% voted for Trump, while only 64% voted for Biden in 2020, which is the lowest that have ever gone for the democrats, and the 27% is one of the best ever. On top of that, they are trending towards the republican party, as the democratic party has done nothing for them and has nothing to offer.

Your citation of GLAAD is just wrong. You can find all the % from exit polls or on wikipedia.
It’s the same as it was for McCain who was against gay marriage, but a thought did occur. If they are all becoming monogamous and want to be normal, isn’t there value then at pushing back against the culture that they have? Because there’s no way you can argue that this.


Third biggest event in all of California centered heavily around sex and the LGBT in the streets is anything remotely normal or traditional. They should be totally fine with trying to ban and remove things like this right? They don’t want that representing them or making them look bad?
 
Tax benefits and open relationships. Hedonism combined with having some stability. “””Best of both worlds””” mentality where you want to have lots and lots of sex with all kinds of people because it gets less exciting with just one person but also fear the loneliness of being out of a long term relationship.
This significantly contrasts with the people I actually know. With a couple of them, I've seen their awkward nerd love develop into a committed relationship, and very recently they not only got married, but bought a house together. If they're sleeping around, no one in our group of friends is aware of it, and it would be out of character with what I know of them. They are not of the purple hair brigade and look very much normal for what you would expect of the area.

And believe it or not, there are plenty of the LGB types who do disapprove of the extremes the various pride events have gone to, and who only want to be seen and treated as normal without having to hide the fact they are LGB anymore than straight people have to hide the fact that they're straight.
 
This significantly contrasts with the people I actually know. With a couple of them, I've seen their awkward nerd love develop into a committed relationship, and very recently they not only got married, but bought a house together. If they're sleeping around, no one in our group of friends is aware of it, and it would be out of character with what I know of them. They are not of the purple hair brigade and look very much normal for what you would expect of the area.
And that’s highly to the contrary of most of those I met and talked to throughout highschool and college.


And believe it or not, there are plenty of the LGB types who do disapprove of the extremes the various pride events have gone to, and who only want to be seen and treated as normal without having to hide the fact they are LGB anymore than straight people have to hide the fact that they're straight.
And they should also be strong enough to be able to handle people who say “I think this is wrong” and hardly anymore without flipping their shit and insulting them.
 
Third biggest event in all of California centered heavily around sex and the LGBT in the streets is anything remotely normal or traditional. They should be totally fine with trying to ban and remove things like this right? They don’t want that representing them or making them look bad?
First, you're looking at San Francisco. I mean, the average San Francisco person is probably in favor of Fulsom. Second, the Folsom Street Fair is a BDSM thing, not a LGBT thing. Third, LGBTs aren't generally on board with policing other people's consensual sexuality, only our own. So even though most find it distasteful, why would they spend political capital on futile attempts to ban it?
 
First, you're looking at San Francisco. I mean, the average San Francisco person is probably in favor of Fulsom. Second, the Folsom Street Fair is a BDSM thing, not a LGBT thing. Third, LGBTs aren't generally on board with policing other people's consensual sexuality, only our own. So even though most find it distasteful, why would they spend political capital on futile attempts to ban it?
I think that it’s terrible for society to have hedonistic sex festivals in the streets, if you look into the history it’s absolutely a LGBT thing and then expanded wider, with a very very strong undercurrent of that. If you can’t see a problem with having a mass sex festival in the streets and what that says about society or want to do anything about that, frankly I don’t think we have anything in common. LGBTs and their allies are also 100% in favor of criticizing and policing activity lol, when said activity is exclusionary towards them and favors traditional masculinity and gender roles or promotes those. Again, I can guarantee I can find you organization after organization providing extensive critiques and fighting to police that, that so many were in favor of Betos position that Churches that don’t marry gays should lose tax exemption as just one point.
 
Abraham is said to be the father of many nations not one, it says that God divorces both Israel and Judea, these are two different nations following the split, Judaism comes directly from the Pharisee sect, rather than any of the other disparate Hebrew groups. And again, the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism is formed post dating Christianity. The Israelites were the Israelites, the Jews come specifically out of Judea/Judah, Jeremiah talks about how God as divorced the people of both kingdoms, Jesus says that those outside of the land of Israel will be sitting with Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham in heaven while those within will find themselves in hell.

Abraham is the father of many nations, we see some of that in the OT through Ishmael and Esau (Edom). It's the people of Israel specifically, the descendants of Jacob, that God's covenant with Abraham carries through and the rest of the OT is about that covenant relationship between God and the people of Israel.

Jews come specifically from Judah/Judea, sure. Rabbinic Judaism as we know it didn't exist in the 1st century, but that doesn't mean what preceded it couldn't be called a kind of "Judaism". Do you think I'm incorrect in calling the religion in Judea at the time "Second Temple Judaism"?
 
Abraham is the father of many nations, we see some of that in the OT through Ishmael and Esau (Edom). It's the people of Israel specifically, the descendants of Jacob, that God's covenant with Abraham carries through and the rest of the OT is about that covenant relationship between God and the people of Israel.
yes and Judah is one of the sons of Jacob, and the progenitor of one of the twelve tribes of Israel and only half the nation of it. Israelites=/=Jews, anymore than all Americans are Texans.
Jews come specifically from Judah/Judea, sure. Rabbinic Judaism as we know it didn't exist in the 1st century, but that doesn't mean what preceded it couldn't be called a kind of "Judaism". Do you think I'm incorrect in calling the religion in Judea at the time "Second Temple Judaism"?
I’m not sure, haven’t heard that term before. But I think it’s very fair to say that the groups around there were not all Jewish, nor was all of Israel Jewish, that it stems from one specific sect of Israel, and that much of its traditions and identity are built around opposition to Christianity.
 

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