Legiones Astartes in Star Wars verse.

They can’t be at war the whole time

I presume they will need resources and recruits to replenish their ranks

They will also basically be telling large numbers of humans to murder their alien friends and neighbors, though from what I can understand how genocidal they are can vary

Regardless of their power, it’s still an entire galactic civilization they’ll be fighting

Eeeeh. It’ll depend on which primarch the xenos are interacting with at any given time.

Horus, for example, considered not blasting the Interex to oblivion even though they were allied with a Xenos breed. I imagine he’ll at least consider the diplomatic possibilities now open to him and his brothers.

Sanguinius, at this point in time, will likely be content to follow Horus’ lead.

The rest of the primarchs are...questionable. I wouldn’t trust Angron or the Night Haunter to play nice for one. Dorn, Ferrus Manus, and Russ are all so hidebound and inflexible, from what I know of them, that they might continue the full scale xenocide regardless

Fulgrim, Magnus, the Lion, Mortarion, Perturabo, and Guilliman are all up in the air. I could see Fulgrim following Horus’ and Magnus might fall in behind his brother as well.

I could see a full scale civil war amongst the primarchs erupting over this question. A good portion of them didn’t think Horus worthy of the position of Warmaster in the first place, and there’s now no Emperor there to enforce Horus’ position as first among equals.

Then there is Lorgar and the Word Bearers. I have absolutely no idea how they’re going to act in this situation. They’d be the true wild cards here.
 
I think something went wrong with the quoting in your post, @Navarro.

Anyway -- as I see it, the overall statements of the two settings are equally matched as far as 'power levels' are concerned just don't hold up. Yes, 40K has impressive tech, but it has intrinsic limitations -- and for the same reason that all those guys in SW have no personal energy shields, for instance. That reason is: Rule of Cool must be conserved.

Coincidentally, I scrolled by this while cross-posting a ship design on twitter earlier today:

40k.png


That first line is why we even have settings like SW and 40K, and why there are utterly illogical things in both settings... which we have to accept as given to make the setting work. Because otherwise, Rule of Cool fails.

For instance: we know that exceedingly efficient personal shields are possible in SW. Droidekas have them. When even very skilled Jedi (including the guys we are told are the most powerful and skilled Jedi of their generations) face those shielded bastards, they have to run, or they get captured or killed. Logically, everybody should carry a shield like that. Even if there are power limitations, using it very briefly during intense combat would be an absurd advantage. But does this happen? No. Why not? It would make most of the cool fights impossible.

40K faces the same issue, and handles it a bit differently. Yes, there are energy shields. But the people using them have to face off against others with conventional armour (albeit really cool sci-fi armour), and even against foes who consist entirely of biological matter. And the fight has to have real tension! So the shields must be limited in how effective they are, or they break the setting. If energy shields in 40K are like those droideka energy shields, the Tyranids are automatically a joke, and will never stand a shadow of a chance. The fact that Tyranids can tear through shielded units shows the limitations. In 40K, most energy shields are an equivalent of really good conventional armour. Anything else would... make most of the cool fights impossible.

Now, the question here is what happens if the two setting collide, somehow?

My reasoning is that, since the two franchises deal with the above issue differently, 40K very obviously has the advantage on the ground. They'll mop the floor with any SW ground forces. But in space, as far as I can tell, it's the other way around. 40K shields mostly still act like really good amour, and weapons within the setting have rough parity. With some difficulty, they can all tear though each other's armour/shielding, more or less. Tyranid ships can do this with giant claws. Conversely, in SW, everybody has the really good SW-typical energy shielding for major vessels. Even a lot of smaller craft are shielded. And the big weapons for space combat are simply scaled up in destructive power to deal with it.

What I deduce from all this can be summed up as:

-- SW has limited use (basically: not for ground forces!) of really effective shields, and weapons that demonstrably have the power to match that.

-- 40K has ubiquitous use (on the ground and in space) of less effective shields, and weapons that demonstrably have the power to match that.

That's why I think it follows that 40K will win ground engagements, and SW will win space engagements. It's a result of how the two settings have taken different approaches to conserving the Rule of Cool. Naturally, one can easily point out all sorts of internal contradictions. This is all very soft sci-fi. Often, weapons are as powerful as the plot demands. Apply rigid logic, and it all falls apart. Just like the above screen-shot indicates. And yes, we can theoretically fight about this, coming up with all sorts of details, which can be contradicted by other details... but for me, this is just a general look at how these two soft sci-fi settings treat certain issues, and the consequences of that, in the event of a 'collision' of the two settings.

There can be little doubt that if we apply some kind of power parity, 40K wins every time and all the time. The fact that 'war' is in the title of both franchises notwithstanding, the people inhabiting the 40K setting are clearly much better at every practical aspect of it. SW is actually more "Star Adventures" than "Star Wars". But this doesn't change the above considerations.

For the record: although I'm more into SW, I like both these settings for what they are, and the notion of "franchise rivalry" is something I have always considered absurd. I don't think treating this as some embittered "versus" debate makes any sense. Investigating why certain things would play out in a certain way is more interesting. The results of a "versus" contest are ultimately quite uninteresting, even-- For the same reason that SW would be uninteresting if one faction had ubiquitous personal energy shields, and 40K would be uninteresting if one faction had truly near-impenetrable energy shields. The setting would break immediately, and it wouldn't be fun anymore.

Basically, because the two settings perpetuate Rule of Cool in different ways, having the two settings interact automatically interferes with those ways. So, depending on the specifics, one side has a clear (and suspense-eliminating) advantage. Transplant any SW ground force to the 40K setting, and they get pulped. Transplant any 40K fleet to the SW setting, and they get crunched. Either way, the result isn't very exciting.

More viable ways of having the settings "interact", in my opinion at least, would derive from questions like:

-- Suppose we have the SW galaxy, with its familiar species and whatnot, but instead of the Force and hyperspace... there is the Immaterium. What are the logical consequences for the setting?

-- Suppose we have the 40K galaxy, with its familiar species and whatnot, but instead of the Immaterium... there is the Force and hyperspace. What are the logical consequences for the setting?
 
There are personal shields in SW-Katarn had one as did the droideka. It’s just they are fairly rare and energy intensive.

SW main advantage is the lack of warp, hyperspace is much more reliable and faster.

Beyond that it gets into debates over calcs and how much you want to wank 40K vs how Saxtonian you are about SW calcs.
 
The Imperium of the 31st millennium would be pleasantly surprised by the aliens of Star Wars. For example, Warmaster Horus would be more than happy to be chummy with the Chiss. One of the reasons the Imperium is so xenophobic is because the aliens of that universe are shit heads to a man, which is not a condition of the Star Wars Galaxy. Wookies are not Orks, they can be reasoned with.
And Chiss would probably be happy to be part of WH30 IoM,too.
Wookies - just another Ogryns for IoM.
P.SI knew little about SW ,but if there were aliens cabable of having kids with humans,then they were not aliens but abhumans.
/Like almost every race from ST/
 
My money is on starwars. The superior communications, logistics and industrial capacity will win out in the end.

What's stopping the Legions from deciding they have to adapt or finding they can't exactly brute force things

Also, they need new recruits and lots of repairs and resources for whatever longterm fights they have

And trying to coopt infrastructure would help
 
What's stopping the Legions from deciding they have to adapt or finding they can't exactly brute force things

Also, they need new recruits and lots of repairs and resources for whatever longterm fights they have

And trying to coopt infrastructure would help

the IOM isnt known for its ability to quickly reverse engineer technology. I think star wars will reverse engineer 40k tech alot more quickly.
 
The Star wars films and CGI shows feature armies marching parade style into each other and blasting away at rock throwing distance while still managing to miss as often as they hit. Clone Troopers are literally consistently unable to stop a 2mph advance of bolt upright infantry on flat terrain with automatic weapons. They bitch about being outnumbered when thats the kind of advantage that would unironically allow you to inflict casualties upwards of your total ammunition supply before the enemy was able to close the gap.

Hell, the first season of that "rebels" show had a platoon of stormtroopers line up in an open field and fire on C3P0 who was walking slowly towards them, for maybe ten or twenty full seconds uninterrupted, and hit nothing but air.


As for the space combat, the fact that the Hulls of those lightweight CIS battleships don't instantly vaporize to a cloud of expanding gas when they take a single hit through their shields, but are nevertheless significantly penetrable by tank cannon fire says truly horrific things about the punch of all ship weapons in the setting.


I mean, it's every movie, every show, it's not just about "accepting" the Legends-verse where we read about Kilojoule rated X-Wing cannons and .30cal slugthrowers with a range of 300m punching straight through Stormtrooper armor, it's not about "accepting" the EU, it's about having a vision of Star Wars where every single fight scene is you playing a game of "hide the nuclear explosion" with yourself.
 
If you actually look at what SW weapons can do, and to what extent SW shields can withstand those weapons, you come to the conclusion that SW is ludicrously over-powered compared to most other settings. It's been calculated that a single X-wing would be able to take on the Enterprise, for instance, and destroy it with ease.

That is taking high-end Star Wars EU and low-end Star Trek feats. Suffice to say, all three settings have feats ranging from sub-kiloton to multi-petaton, though Warhammer 40 000 does, to my knowledge, consistently score towards higher side than the other two.

I'm not an expert on 40K, but I think it's canonical that their bolters are more powerful than their lasguns. Or, approaching that the other way around: their energy weapons are weaker than high-grade kinetic weapons. But those kinetic weapons are a joke when faced with SW energy shields, just as anything 40K's Imperium has defensively is a joke compared to the SW energy weapons. That is: SW capital ships can easily Base Delta Zero any of the Imperium's planets, while the Imperium's weaponry won't even be able to penetrate the shielding of those SW ships. Meanwhile, the Imperium's methods of Exterminatus don't stand a chance of penetrating the planetary defences that even a lot of minor worlds in the SW setting possess.

Base Delta Zero is, at best, comparable to direct-firepower Exterminatus. But according to some stuff I have seen, people can actually survive BDZ while unprotected on surface. No such statement I am aware of wrt Exterminatus.

In ship-to-ship combat, most descriptions I am aware of consistently point Imperium as having firepower superior to the Galactic Empire. But even assuming comparable firepower - which for purposes of VS would be reasonable, otherwise this will degenerate into "my gun is bigger than yours" - fact remains that Imperium warship has a) more weapons and b) superior engagement range than an equivalent Star Wars vessel. And average Imperium's battleship is larger in volume than Executor.

Now, if you ignore the fridge logic of what SW weapons can demonstrably do (and how powerful they -- and, by comparison, all shielding -- must really be), and instead assume that the weapons of both settings are roughly of equal power... and that the Astartes magically get hyperdrive for all their ships... then I think an organised legion of super-soldiers, which is already extremely experienced, will over-run the complacent Galactic Republic within a very short span of time.

Ignoring that is actually favourable towards SW.
 
In ship-to-ship combat, most descriptions I am aware of consistently point Imperium as having firepower superior to the Galactic Empire. But even assuming comparable firepower - which for purposes of VS would be reasonable, otherwise this will degenerate into "my gun is bigger than yours" - fact remains that Imperium warship has a) more weapons and b) superior engagement range than an equivalent Star Wars vessel. And average Imperium's battleship is larger in volume than Executor.

Not to mention the Imperial Armada is a far better fleshed out fleet. Their battleships outmatch anything the Empire's got, let alone pre-Clone Wars vessels, whilst these formations of ships are packed with everything from corvettes to cruisers. In terms of support vessels, the Imperium has got the Galaxy beaten pretty badly. They can actually screen, scout and skirmish which is a massive advantage over the practically lumbering space combat of Star Wars.

Also, highly important, the Imperial Armada is versed in major fleet actions (hence their navy actually being designed to fight instead of terrorize). The Star Wars Galaxy hasn't seen such engagements for over a thousand years.
 
Not to mention the Imperial Armada is a far better fleshed out fleet. Their battleships outmatch anything the Empire's got, let alone pre-Clone Wars vessels, whilst these formations of ships are packed with everything from corvettes to cruisers. In terms of support vessels, the Imperium has got the Galaxy beaten pretty badly. They can actually screen, scout and skirmish which is a massive advantage over the practically lumbering space combat of Star Wars.

It's p. odd that you get the Star Destroyers which are 1-1.5 km in length, and then you jump all the way to the Executor which is 20 times the size!
 
It's p. odd that you get the Star Destroyers which are 1-1.5 km in length, and then you jump all the way to the Executor which is 20 times the size!

The Executor class, I'd imagine, is meant to be the ultimate command ship in accordance with the Tarkin Doctrine. Thus, instead of being designed for military effectiveness, it's built to be overawing. When your main military doctrine is "fear is everything" then the only way to go is bigger.

Ironically the Supremacy, as daft as it is, comes from a more sensible position of essentially "mobile fleet base." One of the frustrating parts of the First Order is that there is some sense underlying their designs, as if lessons were learned from the Empire, but the writing never allows it to fully surface.
 
An issue with the Empire is that in the movies at least it never faced full-scale interstellar war against a near-peer opponent, but was trying to lock down control of its territories against a guerilla insurrection. A rule-through-fear approach makes sense in that context.
 
A rule-through-fear approach makes sense in that context.

Against an enemy that is very widely spread out and can strike at you from an unending multitude of hidden bases. "Rule through fear" is like trying to kill a fly with a mallet. If anything, the Empire needed rapid response forces of light cruisers and escort carriers to painstakingly neutralise the enemy one cell at a time. If anything, even with the Empire's penchant for big capital ships, a true battlecruiser would have sufficed.

Also, this enemy seems to have sprung up from them being tyrannical fuckwits, so perhaps them carrying on with that might not be the best idea. How it is the Romans, a pre-industrial civilisation, got empire building nailed down when the guys who've been interstellar for over twenty thousand years couldn't, is just beyond me.
 
Against an enemy that is very widely spread out and can strike at you from an unending multitude of hidden bases. "Rule through fear" is like trying to kill a fly with a mallet. If anything, the Empire needed rapid response forces of light cruisers and escort carriers to painstakingly neutralise the enemy one cell at a time. If anything, even with the Empire's penchant for big capital ships, a true battlecruiser would have sufficed.

Also, this enemy seems to have sprung up from them being tyrannical fuckwits, so perhaps them carrying on with that might not be the best idea. How it is the Romans, a pre-industrial civilisation, got empire building nailed down when the guys who've been interstellar for over twenty thousand years couldn't, is just beyond me.

Empire building is sociology, which has nothing to do with technology. Modern humans are likely intellectually inferior to ancient / medieval humans - we know more due to knowledge accumulated over generations, but understand less.

But yeah, Empire is built upon terror - Death Star makes that clear enough. If anything, Empire could well fall apart merely from contact with Astartes, especially if it is Guilliman who makes contact first, simply because they would offer hope of better future for myriad planets of the Galactic Empire.
 
Against an enemy that is very widely spread out and can strike at you from an unending multitude of hidden bases. "Rule through fear" is like trying to kill a fly with a mallet. If anything, the Empire needed rapid response forces of light cruisers and escort carriers to painstakingly neutralise the enemy one cell at a time. If anything, even with the Empire's penchant for big capital ships, a true battlecruiser would have sufficed.

Also, this enemy seems to have sprung up from them being tyrannical fuckwits, so perhaps them carrying on with that might not be the best idea. How it is the Romans, a pre-industrial civilisation, got empire building nailed down when the guys who've been interstellar for over twenty thousand years couldn't, is just beyond me.
You are right,Empire to deal with rebels need kind of space green berets.And treating loyal people,including aliens,humanly.
Why they are more stupid then romans? becouse romans were real people who must rule in real world,when Empire is from movie and its only purpose is be evil and get defeated by brave,brave Skywalker.
If they were even partially efficient,angry teenager with lightsaber would not defeat them.
 
Well, that fear was supposed to be their solution to the guerrilla warfare thing.

"The fear of force is more effective than the use of force itself."

They were gonna blow up a planet, preferably one with the rebel HQ on it, brag about it, and tell the galaxy that that is the fate awaiting those who would offer succor to the rebellion.

With the idea being that no planet would willingly support the rebels, and that their populations would actively turn against them in order to deny them the ability to operate on their planet.

Tarkin actually fucked up when he decided to blow up Alderaan just to spite Leia, since they weren't actually supposed to blow up a major world like that - at least not yet. The Empire even tried to lie about what actually caused the destruction of Alderaan. Of course the plan was also ruined when it turned out the Death Star had an unshielded exhaust port that was a straight shot down to its reactor letting you blow the whole goddamn thing up with a single missile from a space-fighter.

As for the aliens . . . I think most Star Wars aliens could come out of it okay. A lot of them are basically just humans with funny skin colors. Sometimes an odd physical feature. But they're capable of interbreeding with humanity and are even classified as Near Humans within Star Wars lore. So I think they'd probably be classified as Abhumans.

Stuff like Wookies, Hutts, and Trandoshans? They'd probably all be put to the sword.
 
Stuff like Wookies, Hutts, and Trandoshans? They'd probably all be put to the sword.

I would disagree with that. To repeat what I said earlier, "Wookies are not Orks. They can be reasoned with."

The Imperium's hostility towards aliens is driven almost entirely by alien aggression to humanity. Wookies, for example, simply aren't interested in conquering the galaxy or worshiping suspicious entities. They just want to be left alone on Kashyyyk mostly. Given that the 40k Imperium is willing to reason with the Tau from time to time, and occasionally make alliances of convenience with Eldar, Warmaster Horus, after getting over his initial shock at meeting non-hostile xenos races, would probably at worst make them a client race.

Given that it's the 30k Imperium, especially if it has shown up in the Outer Rim, they'd probably win a propaganda coup very quickly by crushing the slave trade in that part of the Galaxy. Humans being enslaved by Xenos would probably bring the Salamanders at least crashing down on their heads, which would lead a young Anakin Skywalker to become awe struck by the Adeptus Astartes instead of the Jedi Knights.
 
A lot of it depends I think on the aliens in question.

Species like the Hutts and Anzati are dangerous and are the sort of Xenos the imperium proclaims to defend humanity against.

At the same time, the Duros, and many other species-such as Twi’leks, Wookiees, and Muuns, are more or less reasonable.

Near human species like Chiss or Zeltron-that are implied to be evolutionary offshoots of humans, probably...get more lenient treatment.

The Imperium would likely despise say the Killiks or Geonosians, much less the Mnngal-Mnngal, or some other arcane threat, but most aliens in the SW galaxy you can negotiate with.

That said “kill the Xenos” sentiment is deeply embedded in the Imperium, so I wouldn’t expect too much cordiality. After all crusades against humans that lived in peace with aliens were carried out in Warhammer 40K.
 

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