Leftist Child Grooming

[Terthna]

Most video games have a heroic narrative. Even the famously violent Doom, you're fighting against the forces of evil.

That people could screw around on the side and do retarded stuff was secondary.

Not all of them do though, such as the Grand Theft Auto series for example.

 

[LordsFire]

Not all of them do though, such as the Grand Theft Auto series for example.

Aye, not all. GTA is the only really popular one I can think of with a more villainous narrative, but that has good odds of just being because of which games I do and don't play.

 

[Terthna]

Aye, not all. GTA is the only really popular one I can think of with a more villainous narrative, but that has good odds of just being because of which games I do and don't play.

There's also the Pay Day games, where you play as a bank robbers who kill endless waves of police officers trying to stop you.

 

[Jormungandr]

Or the famous (or infamous) Counter-Strike games, where you play as bonafide terrorists and cartel members blowing shit up, holding hostages, and killing people with those dastardly AWPs!

 

[mandragon]

OK, so based on your statements in this thread can I assume then that you consider any gamer who kills civilian NPCs for the lulz in GTA or tortures their Sims or does any other similar activities in the game are murderers then?

I already addressed this nonsense argument killing has socially utility and is often both justified and righteous. Child molestation is never justified the two things are at all comparable in my opinion.

 

[Captain X]

 

[Pocky Balboa]

I already addressed this nonsense argument killing has socially utility and is often both justified and righteous. Child molestation is never justified the two things are at all comparable in my opinion.

LOL, no you didn't. I don't NEED a pile bunker to kill off people in AC6, I bought it because it's cool and I can kill in style. I have more useful builds for killing, and so killing to buy the pile bunker is hardly utilitarian. In the same game I also repeat a mission several times to kill off some underage student pilot because it's basically like killing Kira Yamato from Gundam SEED. So by your reasoning, I'm a murderer IRL.

 

[Pocky Balboa]

That people could screw around on the side and do retarded stuff was secondary.

And? The crux of mandragon's argument is that indulging in the fantasy of killing is acceptable because of social utility and there being situations where killing is justified and moral. If that's so, then why is indulging in unnecessary and unjustified killing in a game more acceptable than some hikki NEET fapping to a Nanoha ero doujin?

 

[LordsFire]

Or the famous (or infamous) Counter-Strike games, where you play as bonafide terrorists and cartel members blowing shit up, holding hostages, and killing people with those dastardly AWPs!

Where you play as them or the Counter-terrorists pitted against them. Like plenty of Shooters, vs multiplayer obviously requires being able to play either side.

And? The crux of mandragon's argument is that indulging in the fantasy of killing is acceptable because of social utility and there being situations where killing is justified and moral. If that's so, then why is indulging in unnecessary and unjustified killing in a game more acceptable than some hikki NEET fapping to a Nanoha ero doujin?

There is an important conceptual difference between 'You are doing a thing in a video game that is sometimes acceptable, but in the video game you're doing it in a way that is not,' and 'this is never acceptable under any circumstance.'

I think Mandragon is going weird places with the degree he's taking his position to, but there *is* a difference.

And that's before you get to the fact that human sexual appetites can be trained. And if someone is training theirs to be attracted to underage children, that is *not* good. Studies have shown that extensive use of pornography can inure people to having a sexual reaction to more mundane stimulus; you don't want thousands or millions of people who've trained themselves to only get off to even simulated versions of kiddie porn.

I'm not one of those people who thinks there's no difference between actual child porn and loli hentai; drawing sick stuff isn't a crime, even if it is immoral. However, a repeated propensity for such things is grounds for being put on a watch list, if there is ever grounds for a watch list, and not a sign of good mental health.

Conversely, we have decades of data that playing violent video games does not lead to violence.

 

[Pocky Balboa]

There is an important conceptual difference between 'You are doing a thing in a video game that is sometimes acceptable, but in the video game you're doing it in a way that is not,' and 'this is never acceptable under any circumstance.'

I think Mandragon is going weird places with the degree he's taking his position to, but there *is* a difference.

And that's before you get to the fact that human sexual appetites can be trained. And if someone is training theirs to be attracted to underage children, that is *not* good. Studies have shown that extensive use of pornography can inure people to having a sexual reaction to more mundane stimulus; you don't want thousands or millions of people who've trained themselves to only get off to even simulated versions of kiddie porn.

I'm not one of those people who thinks there's no difference between actual child porn and loli hentai; drawing sick stuff isn't a crime, even if it is immoral. However, a repeated propensity for such things is grounds for being put on a watch list, if there is ever grounds for a watch list, and not a sign of good mental health.

Conversely, we have decades of data that playing violent video games does not lead to violence.

So your argument is that the hikkiNEET fapping to a fictional loli is unacceptable because it is training him to like children. From JP documentaries on otaku and my own observations on them during my visits to Comiket, these guys, lolicon and nonlolicon, all share this same attitude: 3D Pig Disgusting (3DPD). For the unaware, this was a phrase by a Korean 4chan poster explaining why he prefers anime waifus; it's a shorthand meme phrase for "real females suck, retreat to 2D waifus in anime and video games." There's even a screenshot out there from one of those documentaries where the guy is saying they love their fictional waifu because she is always clean and neat, not like a real life girl. These lolicons are stimulated by loli exactly because its a fantasy. If they're getting trained then their attraction is being trained towards not being attracted to real kids but to unrealistic anime lolis. Honestly, every time I see some news about some Japanese guy getting arrested for possessing actual child pornography, they're either manga artists who never draw loli like the Rurouni Kenshin creator, and/or they tend to be IRL idol/actor fans as well as anime fans.

This is why I don't really care about dudes fapping to some fictional anime loli. I'd rather catch actual pedos with actual child porn. Plus the pro-censorship wankers no matter the side of the aisle always jump off the slippery slope, so I don't trust mandragon and his ilk to not start banning everything under the sun.

 

[LordsFire]

SNIP

Sure, for some it may be that way, but not all. I doubt anyone has statistics on what amount are '3d is gross' vs 'into kiddie stuff real or drawn,' etc, etc.

It's immoral either way, but so long as actual children are not being harmed, I treat it as a warning sign, not cause for law enforcement to move in. The real sickos are going to have actual child porn on their hard drives too, so it's not like we need to push for special rules to be made about hentai one way or another.

 

[Pocky Balboa]

Sure, for some it may be that way, but not all. I doubt anyone has statistics on what amount are '3d is gross' vs 'into kiddie stuff real or drawn,' etc, etc.

It's immoral either way, but so long as actual children are not being harmed, I treat it as a warning sign, not cause for law enforcement to move in. The real sickos are going to have actual child porn on their hard drives too, so it's not like we need to push for special rules to be made about hentai one way or another.

Nah I would say a large majority is into the 3DPD. You can even see it in the Vtuber sphere both Eastern and Western. A lot of them chimp out if you try to break the fantasy and try to dox the VTuber. Honestly, I think those studies you cite really need to update their methodology to take into account unrealistic art because it sounds like they didn't take into account things like anime.

 

[LordsFire]

Nah I would say a large majority is into the 3DPD. You can even see it in the Vtuber sphere both Eastern and Western. A lot of them chimp out if you try to break the fantasy and try to dox the VTuber. Honestly, I think those studies you cite really need to update their methodology to take into account unrealistic art because it sounds like they didn't take into account things like anime.

The west's saturation with Anime/Manga style art is very much a thing of the last decade, decade and a half. It was around before then, but it only stopped being a niche thing among the 'weeb' subset of the 'nerd' subculture more recently.

Long-term studies into the effects of such things will probably happen, perhaps are already happening, but it all takes time.

Also, anime/Manga styles 'averaging in' towards a more standardized format is also somewhat more recent. If you look at stuff up into the 90's, there was a lot more variance, some of which while distinctly 'anime' were also leaning a lot more towards realism than the more moe-blob focused stuff of late.

I could go further into the subject, but it'd be going into a derail.

 

[Pocky Balboa]

The west's saturation with Anime/Manga style art is very much a thing of the last decade, decade and a half. It was around before then, but it only stopped being a niche thing among the 'weeb' subset of the 'nerd' subculture more recently.

Long-term studies into the effects of such things will probably happen, perhaps are already happening, but it all takes time.

Also, anime/Manga styles 'averaging in' towards a more standardized format is also somewhat more recent. If you look at stuff up into the 90's, there was a lot more variance, some of which while distinctly 'anime' were also leaning a lot more towards realism than the more moe-blob focused stuff of late.

I could go further into the subject, but it'd be going into a derail.

The thing is, loli characters in anime even back then weren't even close to realistic. And I'll disagree on previous decades of anime not having a more standardized format. There are, even among the Japanese, styles that can be identified as from a particular decade, especially if that decade is being parodied or referenced.

EDIT: I think you mean actual otaku culture rather than anime/manga, as the current culture shows more cross pollination with more than anime, as the general Asian otaku characteristics are more apparent on the Western side than previous decades anime surges (you'll see characteristics shared also with say, idol and train otaku if you have knowledge of the behaviors of those subcultures)

 

[Jormungandr]

Simply put, Anime has gone mainstream, it's no longer a niche hobby/"geek" thing among Westerners, and it's basically gobbled up a lot of the market which used to be dominated by comic books because the comic industry took the ol' Leftoid knife to their jugulars.

I mean, hell, even I'm watching anime now. I'm eagerly waiting for the next episode of Goblin Slayer tomorrow.

The thing is, loli characters in anime even back then weren't even close to realistic. And I'll disagree on previous decades of anime not having a more standardized format. There are, even among the Japanese, styles that can be identified as from a particular decade, especially if that decade is being parodied or referenced.

EDIT: I think you mean actual otaku culture rather than anime/manga, as the current culture shows more cross pollination with more than anime, as the general Asian otaku characteristics are more apparent on the Western side than previous decades anime surges (you'll see characteristics shared also with say, idol and train otaku if you have knowledge of the behaviors of those subcultures)

It's fascinating to see how anime styles and animation types/qualities have evolved. You can tell what's from the 70's, the 80's, the 90's, the 00's, and more modern anime just by aesthetics and overall style changes alone.

 

[LordsFire]

The thing is, loli characters in anime even back then weren't even close to realistic. And I'll disagree on previous decades of anime not having a more standardized format. There are, even among the Japanese, styles that can be identified as from a particular decade, especially if that decade is being parodied or referenced.

EDIT: I think you mean actual otaku culture rather than anime/manga, as the current culture shows more cross pollination with more than anime, as the general Asian otaku characteristics are more apparent on the Western side than previous decades anime surges (you'll see characteristics shared also with say, idol and train otaku if you have knowledge of the behaviors of those subcultures)

You certainly can identify different styles as from different decades, but you would see multiple different styles in use in a decade up to the 2000's, whereas since then it's kind of all convened onto a fairly standardized type.

I'm sure there are still outliers, but it's not like before, where if you look at 90's stuff, Sailor Moon, Ranma, Dragonball, and Neon Genesis Evangelion had very noticeably divergent styles. I'd say NGE had something the most similar to more modern styles.

Post-2010, the only anime I can think of with a substantially different style for drawing bodies would be JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, which is based on a Manga that started in the 80's. Just about everything else I can think of, you could drop a character from one series into another series, and unless the outfit doesn't fit the setting, they wouldn't stand out as clearly alien art.

 

[Pocky Balboa]

You certainly can identify different styles as from different decades, but you would see multiple different styles in use in a decade up to the 2000's, whereas since then it's kind of all convened onto a fairly standardized type.

I'm sure there are still outliers, but it's not like before, where if you look at 90's stuff, Sailor Moon, Ranma, Dragonball, and Neon Genesis Evangelion had very noticeably divergent styles. I'd say NGE had something the most similar to more modern styles.

Post-2010, the only anime I can think of with a substantially different style for drawing bodies would be JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, which is based on a Manga that started in the 80's. Just about everything else I can think of, you could drop a character from one series into another series, and unless the outfit doesn't fit the setting, they wouldn't stand out as clearly alien art.

Gonna have to disagree here. I mean, even looking at different adaptations of the same franchise, say Youjo Senki, if you were to put up pictures of Tanya and reduce them to just uncolored sketches from each version you can tell which one came from which. He'll, let's look at Infinite Stratos or High School DxD, you can tell the change in publishers or studios by character design. There's still multiple styles even now, and this complaint about the current style being more homogenized than the previous era is just the same thing I've seen and heard in every anime circle, even in the old days of The Fanfic Mailing List.

 

[Terthna]

Sure, for some it may be that way, but not all. I doubt anyone has statistics on what amount are '3d is gross' vs 'into kiddie stuff real or drawn,' etc, etc.

It's immoral either way, but so long as actual children are not being harmed, I treat it as a warning sign, not cause for law enforcement to move in. The real sickos are going to have actual child porn on their hard drives too, so it's not like we need to push for special rules to be made about hentai one way or another.

In my experience the real sickos, the ones promoting, indulging in, and/or profiting off of the sexual abuse of children, tend to despise the drawn stuff; seeming to take its existence as a personal affront. They put a lot of effort into condemning and crusading against it, while at the same time promoting things like Drag Queen Story Hours and running child sex trafficking rings.

 

[Jormungandr]

Gonna have to disagree here. I mean, even looking at different adaptations of the same franchise, say Youjo Senki, if you were to put up pictures of Tanya and reduce them to just uncolored sketches from each version you can tell which one came from which. He'll, let's look at Infinite Stratos or High School DxD, you can tell the change in publishers or studios by character design. There's still multiple styles even now, and this complaint about the current style being more homogenized than the previous era is just the same thing I've seen and heard in every anime circle, even in the old days of The Fanfic Mailing List.

Those are major exceptions and some of the few that have unique art-styles.

I could go on Crunchyroll right now, pick out about ten anime series' at random, and if I Photoshopped their characters randomly into one another, there'd be like an 80% chance you'd not think they'd be actual characters from that setting.

Amusingly enough, most of those series tend to be either isekai trash or high-school dramas/romances, but still...

 

[LordsFire]

In my experience the real sickos, the ones promoting, indulging in, and/or profiting off of the sexual abuse of children, tend to despise the drawn stuff; seeming to take its existence as a personal affront. They put a lot of effort into condemning and crusading against it, while at the same time promoting things like Drag Queen Story Hours and running child sex trafficking rings.

A handful of people who are vocal on social media does not a dominant trend amongst all people make.

Those are major exceptions and some of the few that have unique art-styles.

I could go on Crunchyroll right now, pick out about ten anime series' at random, and if I Photoshopped their characters randomly into one another, there'd be like an 80% chance you'd not think they'd be actual characters from that setting.

Amusingly enough, most of those series tend to be either isekai trash or high-school dramas/romances, but still...

I honestly don't see any particular reason that 'Another slice of life set in high school' should have particularly unique art styles, but I feel like something is missed when series with much less mundane settings are so incredibly samey.