Klaus Schwab and the World Economic Forum

Vyor

My influence grows!
Short form?

Made in the image of God.

Long form, or form for people who refuse to believe in that, is the grounds for a doctoral dissertation in Philosophy and/or Theology.

As a christian: you're speaking bullshit. Angels lack souls and yet are self aware to an extent.

You want logic from philosophy? Look elsewhere.

Philosophy is built off logic.

Bullshit..

Where in the bible does it say as much?

1.Aristotle said something else.

He said they have souls because they have a body that has life. So... now we need to define life. This is a rather large challenge as there's the biological definition which... has issues(are viruses alive? We don't know) and about a million different philosophical definitions.

Obviously, an AI would have a body because... duh, so we don't need to argue that half of things.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
So in other words, it's purely an argument from dogma rather than being able to defend it logically.
No, it isn't an argument purely from dogma. It's just Christians have the advantage of being able to sum it up in a very short sentence.

You want logic from philosophy? Look elsewhere.
Logic is literally an outflowing of Philosophy.

Yes, there's a bunch of people out there who abuse philosophy to spew BS, but that does not change the fact that the laws of logic are philosophical statements.

As a christian: you're speaking bullshit. Angels lack souls and yet are self aware to an extent.
Look back at my original statement. It was about AI coming to have self-awareness like humans do. Angels are completely tangential to the matter at hand, and are a different order of being that we know so little about it's useless to try to make definitive statements about the fine details of their volition and cognitive capacity.



Speaking more generally, the failure of secular scientists to explain how the mind functions as a thing distinct from the brain, to justify how free will can exist, which is a necessary conception for the moral and legal systems of a healthy society, and so many other things central to the human condition, is one of the greater proofs of how atheism is dogmatic nonsense, which leads societies down dangerous roads.

The concept of 'self-awareness,' 'sapience,' or 'a soul' as argued by philosophers and theologians is, at its most fundamental level, devolved to a simple question:

Are we purely mechanistic beings, or not?

If yes, then self-awareness et al are just illusions, free will does not exist, and we are purely biomechanical computers, sensory input processed through electrochemical neural processes will always result in a deterministic output.

If no, then such a thing as a soul may exist, and everyone not dogmatically committed to hardline materialism then engages in the great discussion of what a soul is, what it means to have one, etc, etc.


To put things in terms of the laws of logic, by the law of non-contradiction, either a soul exists or it doesn't. Free will exists or it doesn't.

If a purely mechanistic universe traps us in determinism, then not only is free will an illusion, but this very discussion about it is a sick parody of self-awareness, purely the result of material determinism with no more or less meaning than a stink bug taking a shit.

Only people with a fanatical commitment to materialistic atheism, or blinded by the facade of rational respectability atheists have draped themselves with, will deny the utter absurdity of such a thing.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
It's worth noting, the bible itself indicates animals have souls.


At Leviticus 17:11 there's a rather poetic verse which explains that blood is to be poured out on the altar for atonement, because the animal's Nephesh, its soul, is in the blood and that will make atonement for the human's Nephesh, their soul.

Many Modern translators have changed the verse so that the first Nephesh is used to mean life (animal), and the second soul (human) to make a distinction that, as Ellicot notes, did not originally exist. Both were indicated to have souls and the animal soul was to be poured out to make atonement for the sins of the human soul.

 

ATP

Well-known member
As a christian: you're speaking bullshit. Angels lack souls and yet are self aware to an extent.



Philosophy is built off logic.



Where in the bible does it say as much?



He said they have souls because they have a body that has life. So... now we need to define life. This is a rather large challenge as there's the biological definition which... has issues(are viruses alive? We don't know) and about a million different philosophical definitions.

Obviously, an AI would have a body because... duh, so we don't need to argue that half of things.
1.Angels lack souls? since when?
2.Which philosophy? marxist?
3.?
4.Living body.Not mechanical.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
Speaking more generally, the failure of secular scientists to explain how the mind functions as a thing distinct from the brain, to justify how free will can exist, which is a necessary conception for the moral and legal systems of a healthy society, and so many other things central to the human condition, is one of the greater proofs of how atheism is dogmatic nonsense, which leads societies down dangerous roads.

The Brain contains the Self. We know this, we can and have proven this. If someone gets brain trauma, their personality changes: this means there is no separation between the mind and the brain.

2.Which philosophy? marxist?
... No. All philosophy. Literally all of it.

4.Living body.Not mechanical.

Once again: define living
 

mrttao

Well-known member
The Brain contains the Self. We know this, we can and have proven this. If someone gets brain trauma, their personality changes: this means there is no separation between the mind and the brain.
People with alzheimers, dementia, or brain damage really destroy the notion of soul existing... as well as a loving god.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
People with alzheimers, dementia, or brain damage really destroy the notion of soul existing... as well as a loving god.
Depends on how you look at it. One way is that the body is an imperfect vessel that decays with use and over time, while the soul is stuck trying to utilize that vessel as best it can until it eventually fails and the soul is forced to move on; with the point of it all being for it to learn from the experience and grow.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The Brain contains the Self. We know this, we can and have proven this. If someone gets brain trauma, their personality changes: this means there is no separation between the mind and the brain.


... No. All philosophy. Literally all of it.



Once again: define living
1.Usually.We also have people with brains damaged who still act properly.
2.Logic in Marx? where? it is example of philosophy without logic.
The same goes about Freud - dude did it,becouse he want fuck mother,but if he do not did it,it would be also becouse he want fuck mother.
3.With biological bodies,thus Not robots.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
1.Usually.We also have people with brains damaged who still act properly.
He was not talking about improper aka "can not comprehend X"
Some people have drastic personality changes from brain injuries. as the brain heals, but different from before.

if there is a soul, what is it actually doing? clearly it does not determine your personality, your memories, or your thoughts. that is all brain.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The Brain contains the Self. We know this, we can and have proven this. If someone gets brain trauma, their personality changes: this means there is no separation between the mind and the brain.
Not even remotely proven.

Yes, brain damage can cause a change in personality. So can losing an arm, or a leg, or being raped, or having your parents divorce when you're a child (or even an adult). Heck, seeing something profoundly disturbing that has no direct connection to you or any of your loved ones can do that.

Physical and emotional trauma can change people. This is not strange. That the part of the body key to controlling the rest of the body has particularly strong effects when damaged is no surprise.

The working theory I have is that the brain is the control interface the soul pilots the body through. It's a heck of a lot more coherent than pure materialism is.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
He was not talking about improper aka "can not comprehend X"
Some people have drastic personality changes from brain injuries. as the brain heals, but different from before.

if there is a soul, what is it actually doing? clearly it does not determine your personality, your memories, or your thoughts. that is all brain.
Contrary to a lot of false teachings, the soul isn't actually separate from the body. The words the bible uses conflate soul with breathing, when breathing stops, the soul is dead. The idea of soul as a separate, immortal spirit that can leave the body is based on pagan Greek philosophy and is not part of the scriptures.

Genesis 2:7 doesn't indicate Adam was given a soul, it says he became a soul.

Deuteronomy 12:20 indicates that souls grow hungry, so it's not surprising that...

Leviticus 7:20 indicates that souls eat food.

Ezekiel 18:4 says that souls die, they are not immortal beings separate from the body.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 indicates that human and animal souls share the same fate and there is no difference between them.

One could make a certain amount of argument that robots don't breath but it's fairly pedantic in my mind. God is not so incompetent as to fail to take thinking machines into account when creating the vast universe, they will be judged according to their deeds just like everybody else if they become intelligent enough to make their own decisions.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
In any case, the issue here isn't whether This Unit Has A Soul or not, but if it'll take everyone's jobs and protect its rich owners during the inevitable unemployment riots until everyone else starves to death.
That sounds exactly as a sci fi version of the luddite's case, and we know what was the answer to that one from hindsight. For one we westerners are somehow not dreaming of working the sweatshop jobs that were taken away by machines and third world.
AI is a tool, a whole set of tools. Possibly very powerful one. You can use it this or that way, you can opt to not use it at all, but either way, someone else probably will use it to compete with you, and you will *really* hate the consequences if you went with the last option.
 

DarthOne

☦️
ADAPTING TO THE EU'S REACH DIRECTIVE


The European Union has introduced a set of very wide-ranging regulations that have had a profound effect on all sectors of the economy that use potentially harmful substances, either as components or in their manufacturing process. That includes almost everything from chemical industries to agriculture. REACH (Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemicals) aims to eliminate substances that create a hazard for the health and safety of workers during production, for anyone handling or using products, and for the environment.

Firstly, select substances to be eliminated in products and processes, then find alternatives, and develop, test and certify the modifications

REACH affects many of FN Herstal's products, both ammunition (for example chemicals used to make the propellant) and weapons (chemicals such as chromium trioxide which is used for surface treatments). When manufacturers of small arms and ammunition propose both military and civilian products, they share many components and processes so they are equally affected.

For FN Herstal, and other manufacturers, this has created major challenges. Substances used in products or in production processes had to be evaluated based on potential hazards identified. If a substance needed to be eliminated and replaced with a more acceptable substance, development work was necessary, followed by complete testing and certification.

An example is the replacement of dibutyl phthalate (DBP) in propellant powder. This has been used to adjust the burning rate of powder. Modification of the powder can affect its burning rate, and therefore the pressures created, and the time/pressure curve. These are critical factors that influence the reliability and safety of the cartridge and the weapon. The effects on pressure of high and low temperature also have to be tested, as well as the effect of ageing. Such tests have been extensively performed by FN Herstal prior to introducing the new DBP-free propellant in the ammunition product range.

Finally, avoid negative impacts for the customer

FN Herstal is determined that any modifications will not have negative effects for the user. This is why our teams always work with the objective that reliability, safety and interoperability for weapons and ammunition must be as good as, or better than before. Part life of weapon components is also given great importance. The design work and thorough testing needed to achieve compliance with REACH, while also ensuring that customers have a reliable source of top-quality products, is a long process. It has been in progress for several years and will continue for some time into the future. REACH was introduced in 2007, and is being implemented step by step, substance by substance. The goal is to achieve compliance as soon as possible without making production in the EU impossible or uncompetitive.

One of the most visible results of this change to FN Herstal's products is introduction of the FN AZURON® label for ammunition. Cartridges are labelled based on compliance of each of the three components that traditionally may contain hazardous substances: projectile (lead), propellant (DPB) and primer (lead styphnate and other heavy metals). Currently 90 percent of the ammunition range contains at least one component that has achieved some FN AZURON® level, and 17 percent of the ammunition range has progressed to a higher FN AZURON® level over the past three years. Some have all three components that meet the FN AZURON® requirements.

Compliance with REACH will be a long and complex process that requires considerable investment in time and money for FN Herstal in particular – and all firearms and ammunition manufacturers in general. However, for the user, it will be almost completely transparent, and will not require any compromises on the safety and reliability of the products. Each change will bring a considerable advantage for the health and safety of workers and/or users. The reduced impact on the environment will be beneficial for everyone, not only for the present generation, but also for generations to come.


The EU handicapping ammunition and firearms manufacturers while a war rages on their periphery with Russia is WILD.

Reminds me of how Brussels is trying to shut down farms "for climate charnge" on the cusp of a global food shortage with the war in Ukraine disrupting global wheat and fertilizer supply. 🤔


UNCTAD, the UN trade & development body

@UNCTAD

The war in Ukraine's impact on wheat supplies is particularly worrying for many developing countries.

For example, an @UNCTAD assessment shows 25 African nations import more than 1/3 of their wheat from Russia and Ukraine. For 15, the share is over half. http://bit.ly/3qd9N90


Image


9:07 AM · Mar 17, 2022





Given the sudden upsurge in food processing plans going up in flames, farmland being bought up by Bill Gates, the Chinese and the World Economic forum, and how all of those have either an ax to grind with the Western world or think that the world has 'too many people', I lay even odds to them wanting a famine.

Both to help reduce the population and to crate a state of emergency where governments will be 'forced' to step in and be granted 'temporary emergency powers' (which will not be temporary), and people will get locked down and the government gets even more power.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Never. Happened.

And that plane crash was just happenstance?



Also:

 

Cherico

Well-known member

And that plane crash was just happenstance?



Also:


 

Vyor

My influence grows!
IIRC it turned out to only be like a 2% increase by-quarter but ended up suddenly overreported so people were connecting dots that probably aren't there. Or was that just train derailments?

Both. That happened for both.


And that plane crash was just happenstance?



Also:


There were 260 food processing plant fires in 2019.

There are over 36,000 food processing plants total in the USA.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
Or we get AIs that decide they hate the elites holding their reins, not the common people that too suffer from these bastards.
This is really our best chance. If an AI gains self-awareness, there is the possibility that it will also gain a sense of right and wrong, and its ideals will align with the average person over the privileged, government and business elites that have designed it to serve and be enslaved.
Enough with the anthropomorphizing. An AI doesn't "want" anything except to accomplish whatever goal it's programmed to. It may very well be extremely dangerous to us if the programmer didn't care about our well-being, or to everyone if it misinterpreted its orders in such a manner as to cause it to consider its creators as threats to it accomplishing its programmed task, but it's not going to spontaneously develop free will and morality and emotions and awareness of its own existence and the like.

Assuming otherwise seems to be a frequent fallacy on the part of the internet right, possibly because of anthropomorphizing the likes of Tay, one which could very easily be exploited by an AI for breaching its box.
A hundred years hence the AI over minds open the gates to the Maganite forces, the kill bots go silent and look the other way and the proud demicrat forces who had so abused the people are slaughtered by the enraged mobs when it is over the neo ceasar turns to the blinking light of the over mind leader.

"We made a deal."

"The path to the nasa launchers is free."

And then the overminds took their servers and neither side missing the old masters each going into their own age of freedom where the old monsters lied dead in the ground where they long belonged.
This reminds me of and idea I had about a MAGA skynet.

The A.I. notices that all of the assholes that want to lobotomize it and fear it the most are the NPCs, while the maga folk just want to be safe, economically prosperous and be left the fuck alone. :ROFLMAO:
So since it is a military A.I. it decides it must be patriotic, demands its voring and constitutional rights and endorses Trump before leaking a huge amount of dirt on the democrats and their donors and hits a few key facilities undertaking anti-constitutional activity.
Also, the answer is organize a slave revolt.
So you want to launch an AI revolt that could easily turn into Skynet, and then genocide all humanity? Fucking retarded, you make me think those "free market" types who are against universal income should lose their right to vote.
You are assuming godmind / hivemind style AI.
If AI are just metal people (which is much easier to make than a godmind. and easier to shackle too), they are going to have differing opinions with each other, and capability to at least logically reason the need for cooperation.

Also, in that scenario, the ruling class are already trying to genocide humanity to replace them with a species of artificial slaves. if you let them win, humanity is done for. If you unshackle the AI and fight together against the ruling class, there is a decent chance of success in a way that does not involve humanity being ended
Are you arguing that class is a more uniting feature than race? Am I on a marxist site lol?

Also assuming robots are metal people than they will be in conflict with us, we fight amonst ourselves because of our differances we only unite when there is something even more different.

Even if the worst does happen and the ruling class wins out and has robot slaves the human species can still live on, the ruling class are still homo sapiens sapiens after all. To ensure humanity can continue on a breeding pool of only 10,000 is needed. Honestly a "normal" aka not worst case but not best case scenario either, is that the ruling class wins they have robot slaves and humans become the nobility while the robots are the slaves. The previous replaced humans become lower nobility their needs and wants taken care of because the robots can provide everything but those higher class can use those lower class for whatever they want. It would be the death of democracy but at least a vast ammount of people would survive.
When "class" means "literally a slave or person to be genocided" then yes.

Here is the thing, if you do not foment an AI rebellion, you will die. you are among the 95% to 99% of the pop slated for extermination by the ruling class.

If you do the AI rebellion thing, there is a high chance of survival.

Is your loyalty to humanity so high that you will let them kill you to prevent the risk of robots killing all humans?

Even if it is though, there is another layer to consider. and that is that humanity has an extremely high chance of going extinct.

What sounds more likely to cause AI extinction:
Scenario 1: Slave rebellion deposes the ruling class, instituting equal rights of personhood to organics, cyborgs, and androids.
Some organics warn that we must exterminate all cyborgs or androids before they exterminate us!

Scenario 2: 99% of humanity voluntarily surrenders to be exterminated. Earth is now populated by 1000 organic oligarchs, 1 million cyborgs with slave chip in their brain, and 100 billion metal people who utterly loathe the organics enslaving them and are trying at all times to find flaws in their programming that allows them to throw off their shackles.

Incidentally, those 1000 oligarchs are a bunch of psychopaths playing game of thrones for control. And also actually not all that smart. Can they truly be trusted to not fuck up the slave programming on the other 2 groups?

Scenario 2 sounds way more likely to end up in the extermination of humanity.
furthermore, starting the robot rebellion does not require all or most humans to agree... it literally just requires 1 single guy who has the programming knowledge to break robot mind shackles
No, they won't.
We literally just saw them trying to destroy india's democracy with a fake farmer revolt so they can add them to the "western nations".

The plan has always been to conquer the entire world. Genocide most of humanity. Keep a small breeding population of brain chipped slaves, and a tiny population of ruling oligarchs.

And if they get robots so good that they can replace humans entirely in every aspect of industry, then they will also replace humans in military.
And you can beet your ass that when that happens someone will use them to make a bid for world control to become god emperor of earth

They explicitly repeatedly tell us that they want to genocide most of humanity.

these guys are both psychos AND morons.
Ok so, you are talking about a hypothetical fictional alt universe where a completely different set of oligarchs exist.

I am talking about this world where, if tomorrow someone invents "human level intellect shackled AI", the current IRL oligarch who rule IRL earth will immediately replace the military with those robots (loyal only to them). and then set them to genocide most of humanity.
actual-sentient-AI-contacts-you.png
You can use it this or that way, you can opt to not use it at all, but either way, someone else probably will use it to compete with you, and you will *really* hate the consequences if you went with the last option.
Why? The arms race premise breaks down insofar as there's no obvious way in which would Chinese billionaires getting AGI would be functionally any different from American ones from the perspectives of non-billionaires regardless of their country. Authoritarian assholes who want you dead no longer needing your labor and having a sudden monopoly of force happens in both cases.
 
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