Philosophy Is "woke" actually fascism of a stripe?

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Seriously, "Everything in the Agenda, nothing outside the Agenda, nothing against the Agenda" fits them to a tee. Add to that all their demonstrations, lack of regard for political civility and process, insignia, flags, etc, and we're only a few "diversity is our strength" chants, a charismatic leader, and Roman salutes, from them taking the mask off. Best part is, they probably aren't even aware of just how close they are to Mussolini and his ilk.

We've had black shirts and brown shirts. Perhaps we should call this lot "pink shirts"?
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
All these fanatical movements have clear commonalities. I wouldn't say that wokies are fascists, but rather that wokies -- like fascists, communists, eco-fanatics and many other 'rabid' movements -- are actually forms of religious cultism. The ur-movement of this type was that of the French revolutionaries. And as they killed off the organising structure of the Christian religion, they left a void in their wake.

A void filled by all sorts of "secular cultism". Frenzied, fanatical movements that inspire unhealthy passions and mad fervours.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Seriously, "Everything in the Agenda, nothing outside the Agenda, nothing against the Agenda" fits them to a tee. Add to that all their demonstrations, lack of regard for political civility and process, insignia, flags, etc, and we're only a few "diversity is our strength" chants, a charismatic leader, and Roman salutes, from them taking the mask off. Best part is, they probably aren't even aware of just how close they are to Mussolini and his ilk.

We've had black shirts and brown shirts. Perhaps we should call this lot "pink shirts"?
It's totalitarian for sure. It's a perfectly good term, i don't see the need to slap this one specific kind of totalitarian label on all sorts of random totalitarian movements as if it had any merit beyond the most self-absorbed antifa circles.
After all, both have some shared socialist ancestry.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Frenzied, fanatical movements that inspire unhealthy passions and mad fervours.
Took like 400 years for Christianity to stop being this, and it came back to it with some of the crusades. Unless you think flagellants and martyr-baiting were never a thing. Also riots that took a Roman Emperor locking early leaders in a room and exiling the guy who refused to drop the arguments over theological minutia to end. To say nothing of all the slaughters kicked off by the Catholic clergy refusing to allow anyone to exist outside the pyramid scheme they slowly but surely turned Christianity into, until they suddenly were forced to compete for followers from how intensely people were fed up with their bullshit.

Any overarching authority is going to result in disruptive extremists and corruption. The best track record of the 20th century was unsurprisingly the one country who's central government operates on a whitelist of what it's allowed to do and the most thoroughly entrenched separation between government functions.

but Wokeism is actually an ideology that had been created in the USSR, by the USSR, to destroy the West.
Rather, Wokeism is what the Soviet subverters' plans decayed into without their handlers to clean up. The current nonsense wouldn't have happened with the USSR still around because it's too extreme to actually take over from. They're too idiotic to be useful, as the counter-movement is characterized by a hatred of anyone being able to be such asses.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Took like 400 years for Christianity to stop being this
Yes, Christianity more-or-less originated at the very tail-end of the "wild cult"-producing era of the Classical civilisation. It did grow up, though, so to speak. And ultimately became the universal religion of the empire.


and it came back to it with some of the crusades.
As I've argued before: those were an outward manifestation of an internal struggle. For its first thousand years, a through-line in Christianity was the Millennium. After a thousand years, Christ was supposed to return. He didn't. It required some re-invention. Christianity stopped stressing the typically Platonist "not of this world" aspects, and started bending towards the more Aristotelian "know the Highest through knowing His creation" take on things. This didn't happen overnight, and I view the Crusades (in large part) as a way of pushing the destructive energy of this internal unrest at an external target.

It was really quite well done. Islam didn't manage it, and the philosophical effects of this failure on their civilisation can still be seen today. If you want to imagine an ATL Christianity that burned Thomas Aquinas and all the Scholastics at the stake and rejected all rationalism... just look at Islam today. It's a decent indicator of how such a thing ends up.


To say nothing of all the slaughters kicked off by the Catholic clergy refusing to allow anyone to exist outside the pyramid scheme they slowly but surely turned Christianity into
That's a rather anti-Catholic interpretation, and not one I consider fair or honest. To be a bit more nuanced about it; the exact swerve to "material" Aristotelianism that I described produced the Western tradition of science and reason. It was immensely valuable, and as I said: Islam shows us where the alternative route leads. That being said, the turn towards more materialism also led to corruption, decadence and moral relativism. The problem of the late mediaeval and renaissance Church wasn't that it was ruthlessly opressive (in fact it was very tolerant, as religions go). It was that it was corrupt and stagnant.

The Reformation is in that sense "Plato's Revenge". A return to non-materialist primacy, a rejection of the physical world; that's what the pietism was all about, and what underpinned the iconoclasm. It's not that the dissatisfaction with the Church was unwarranted... but I feel compelled to note that all the modernist ideas that now trouble us stem from the Protestant mind-set. Just as the Catholic position led to problems, so has the Reformation had its own troubling consequences.


{...} until they suddenly were forced to compete for followers from how intensely people were fed up with their bullshit.
I'd like to stress again that when the Catholic Church was firmly in charge, it was actually quite tolerant. Claims to the contrary are mostly cherry-picked exceptions, or Enlightenment-era propaganda that has since been thoroughly debunked.

So the Church wasn't "intolerant until forced to compete". The Church was acually tolerant, until faced with extremely intolerant Protestantism. That's what prompted the Counter-Reformation, in which the Catholics became-- well, just as intolerant as their enemies. A sort of race to the bottom, really...


Any overarching authority is going to result in disruptive extremists and corruption.
As indicated above, I only half agree. Entrenched authority results in corruption. Chaos and disorder result in extremism.

Religions are extremist when they are in a state of conflict, when they have competition. This is also when they strive for ideological purity. So extremism, intolerance and piety are to some degree linked. When one religion wins and becomes the generally undisputed power, it can afford to be tolerant and fairly moderate. This has the advantage that philosophy flourishes (see: Scholastics), but the disadvantage that it soon invites corruption. Because there are no enemies to "keep you honest"!


The best track record of the 20th century was unsurprisingly the one country who's central government operates on a whitelist of what it's allowed to do and the most thoroughly entrenched separation between government functions.
I'd like to note here that the Western tradition of separation between Church and state and distribution of powers is inherently a Christian legacy, which was formalised all the way back when Charlemagne was crowned by the Pope. For the longest time, the role that the Catholic Church played in politics was, by and large, keeping the Emperor in his place.

Protestantism harmed the separation of Church and State, by inviting heads of state to also be in charge of state churches. The USA indeed largely esaped this (for a time) by deliberately avoiding a state church. Well done! However, the overall trend of the 'modern' world is still one of unrestrained state power. This is in no small part because the only power that could check the state -- the Church -- was broken.

The resulting situation sees many people looking for some alternative to the Church, with very mixed results. Thus, we are in an era of wild cultism... and therefore of ideological "purity wars". Such situations are not stable. Eventually, one religion will win, and become the new (or restored) universal church.

When we look at the various candidates, I feel that a restoration of mediaeval Catholicism would be far from the worst outcome, really...
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
When we look at the various candidates, I feel that a restoration of mediaeval Catholicism would be far from the worst outcome, really...

Looking at various candidates, medieval Catholicism is probably the only option that wouldn't result in a disaster!
 

edgeworthy

Well-known member
Seriously, "Everything in the Agenda, nothing outside the Agenda, nothing against the Agenda" fits them to a tee. Add to that all their demonstrations, lack of regard for political civility and process, insignia, flags, etc, and we're only a few "diversity is our strength" chants, a charismatic leader, and Roman salutes, from them taking the mask off. Best part is, they probably aren't even aware of just how close they are to Mussolini and his ilk.

We've had black shirts and brown shirts. Perhaps we should call this lot "pink shirts"?
Actually, I think that the guys in the Red-Baseball Caps have already won the race on this one?
 
As I've argued before: those were an outward manifestation of an internal struggle. For its first thousand years, a through-line in Christianity was the Millennium. After a thousand years, Christ was supposed to return. He didn't. It required some re-invention.

To be fair the whole "Carnal Kingdom Vs. Spiritual Kingdom" was a debate that was there from the very start. Add to that the book of Revelations which is both prophecy AND attempts to describe things that are so alien It'd make Lovecraft slack jawed and you have a recipe for massive confusion.

As for the topic at hand I'm more for tribal isolationism. "Reject society return to monkee. At least then when society inevitably implodes it'll only do damage in those concentrated pockets and not kill everything.
 
Looking at various candidates, medieval Catholicism is probably the only option that wouldn't result in a disaster!

So are we just going to blame boredom and grass is greener mentally for modernity and not any sort of flaws within institutions that might cause people to rebel in the first place? "The devil made me do it?"

No offense but you can't blame non-catholics for everything. Especially considering the Catholic church is still very much a thing and yet just like it's mega church non Catholic counterparts is still bowing to current trends.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
So are we just going to blame boredom and grass is greener mentally for modernity and not any sort of flaws within institutions that might cause people to rebel in the first place? "The devil made me do it?"
The point isn't that anything is flawless. It's that dramatic "revolutions" of any kind will, almost invariably, lead to something worse than what they were revolting against.

For comparison: it's not like Louis XVI and his ministers were doing a very good job running France, but Robespierre and his ilk were a whole lot worse. In the same way, the Catholic Church had serious issues by the (so-called) Renaissance era, but the way the Protestant Reformation turned out was a bloody disaster.

(The moral difference is that Luther, at least, started out genuinely wanting to reform the Church; whereas the intellectual standard-bearers of the French Revolution were genocidal psychopaths who intended to cause a massive bloodbath. See Diderot's maxim that mankind could only be freed "when the last king is strangled with the entails of the last priest".)
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The point isn't that anything is flawless. It's that dramatic "revolutions" of any kind will, almost invariably, lead to something worse than what they were revolting against.

For comparison: it's not like Louis XVI and his ministers were doing a very good job running France, but Robespierre and his ilk were a whole lot worse. In the same way, the Catholic Church had serious issues by the (so-called) Renaissance era, but the way the Protestant Reformation turned out was a bloody disaster.

(The moral difference is that Luther, at least, started out genuinely wanting to reform the Church; whereas the intellectual standard-bearers of the French Revolution were genocidal psychopaths who intended to cause a massive bloodbath. See Diderot's maxim that mankind could only be freed "when the last king is strangled with the entails of the last priest".)


So when will the french Revolution finally end?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
So are we just going to blame boredom and grass is greener mentally for modernity and not any sort of flaws within institutions that might cause people to rebel in the first place? "The devil made me do it?"

No offense but you can't blame non-catholics for everything. Especially considering the Catholic church is still very much a thing and yet just like it's mega church non Catholic counterparts is still bowing to current trends.

I'm blaming human stupidity and idealism. All the revolutions that destroyed the West? They all started as honest attempts to replace the existing system with something better.

They only succeeded in making things worse.

Then there is also the fact that modernity itself is destructive. Modernist absolutist monarchies directly led to revolutions in the first place.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
They only succeeded in making things worse.
To your specific ethical standards that largely start from the premise that what they overthrew was right. In shit we've been able to measure, it had been an upward trend until the 1980s. More security of needs, more access to luxuries, less disease, less infant mortality, across the board people's lives were better by the physical standards that can actually be demonstrated.

The people who lined up to go to the factories were not insane or stupid. More often than not, they understood the kind of risks they were taking, and went through with it anyways. In pre-modern cities, including previous "modernity", this was also the case, but the risk was far higher due to disease and starvation that we have nearly fully solved, and the rewards far lower because there was quite simply not as much to go around.

Modernist absolutist monarchies directly led to revolutions in the first place.
Except that "modernist" had nothing to do with it, it was purely a result of increased ability to communicate and bureaucratize rendering the social order you idolize fundamentally unstable. If you look at China's history, the exact same material failings crept in much the same way without ever having an experimentation period worth calling "Modernity".

All government systems trend towards consolidating power as narrowly as possible. Feudal systems comprehensively failed at arresting or managing this because they operated on layers of delegation creating strata by scale. Formally speaking, the lower nobility were just hereditary bureaucrats handling the detail-work of ruling the kingdom because the king could not do so directly. Once he could, Louis the XVI was inevitable.

Just before the French Revolution, we saw the creation of the United States. A federated system that expressly divided the powers of the system by kind instead of scale. This simple difference so greatly complicates both centralization of power and the "degeneration" you're concerned with that despite being ground zero for so much of it, we're still the least affected.

Not because we can throw treasure at it to render it a non-issue until we go broke, but because there's dozens upon dozens of officially delineated power structures that have to be worked through separately. The only way to make headway on ruinous centralization here is to bypass and ignore the system at every turn, generally with megacorporations or academia.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
To your specific ethical standards that largely start from the premise that what they overthrew was right. In shit we've been able to measure, it had been an upward trend until the 1980s. More security of needs, more access to luxuries, less disease, less infant mortality, across the board people's lives were better by the physical standards that can actually be demonstrated.

Trend has been upward before the revolutions, then it stopped during them, and resumed afterwards. In other words, even in "shit we've been able to measure", most of the revolutions (and especially those in the 19th and 20th centuries) only succeeded in making things worse.

You are taking results of technological progress and ascribing them to the mythological "political progress", when in fact changes in political landscape are usually a result of the technological progress, not its cause.

The people who lined up to go to the factories were not insane or stupid. More often than not, they understood the kind of risks they were taking, and went through with it anyways. In pre-modern cities, including previous "modernity", this was also the case, but the risk was far higher due to disease and starvation that we have nearly fully solved, and the rewards far lower because there was quite simply not as much to go around.

Factories were not a result of any revolutions. At any rate, dangers of modernism are far more subtle than "getting killed in a factory".

Except that "modernist" had nothing to do with it, it was purely a result of increased ability to communicate and bureaucratize rendering the social order you idolize fundamentally unstable. If you look at China's history, the exact same material failings crept in much the same way without ever having an experimentation period worth calling "Modernity".

All government systems trend towards consolidating power as narrowly as possible. Feudal systems comprehensively failed at arresting or managing this because they operated on layers of delegation creating strata by scale. Formally speaking, the lower nobility were just hereditary bureaucrats handling the detail-work of ruling the kingdom because the king could not do so directly. Once he could, Louis the XVI was inevitable.

Just before the French Revolution, we saw the creation of the United States. A federated system that expressly divided the powers of the system by kind instead of scale. This simple difference so greatly complicates both centralization of power and the "degeneration" you're concerned with that despite being ground zero for so much of it, we're still the least affected.

Not because we can throw treasure at it to render it a non-issue until we go broke, but because there's dozens upon dozens of officially delineated power structures that have to be worked through separately. The only way to make headway on ruinous centralization here is to bypass and ignore the system at every turn, generally with megacorporations or academia.

You are partly correct in that the increased ability to communicate enabled centralization. But Louis XVI was not inevitable, nor did democracy arrest the process of centralization. Fact is that modern-day democracies are far more centralized and bureocratized than late 19th century / early 20th century monarchies. As I wrote here, in monarchies of 1900s, only 3% of populace worked for the crown. Today’s democracies in Europe have the proportion of 10% of populace working for the government at minimum, with maximum of 29% and average on level of EU of 16%.

And a "federated system that expressly divided the powers of the system by kind instead of scale" has existed before the United States. In medieval Europe, you had division of power between the King, the nobility, the cities and the Church. Even in the modern monarchies, courts of law were not exactly controlled by the state, and in Austria-Hungary and Germany both, local governments could and would resist the central government. But yes, I do agree that US system was well set up - now look at how quickly Europe has gone down despite having technically same division of power. I'd say you were saved by the state governments that were capable of resisting the Federal government.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top