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Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
At the point that bitcoin actually gets used as an actual currency, I'll take it more seriously. from what I've seen 99% of it has been hype scams followed by rug pulls. it's essentially tulip mania on steroids.
See, calling it Tulip Mania? You are at least in the ballpark. And frankly yes, a lot of cryptos are Tulip Mania (notably how NFTs were used). But Tulipmania is far different than a Ponzi scheme.


Anyway, figured I'd type up a quick primer on what crypto actually is:

The way to think of the blockchain is really as a ledger. It's a ledger where anyone can write in it according to the rules of the ledger, but you can't edit or change what was written before. (Technically there's wrong stuff there, in fact a lot of technically wrong stuff there, but this is trying to get across the basic idea and is accurate enough).

Bitcoin was the first such ledger, and in it, it had tokens. These tokens were fungible, and are given to users. Each new block in the chain is an entry in the ledger, saying who gave how many tokens to whom, and also the author of the entry can give himself some set number of new tokens for making this entry (that's the mining). The point of the mining is to incentivize people doing enough computational work to write new blocks, and thus allow transactions.

The key thing is that there isn't anything special about the Bitcoin ledger. The rules are very simple, but it's very easy to just start up a new ledger with the same rules. And this is what shitcoins are. Copies of the original. There's in truth no scientific difference between a shitcoin and a bitcoin, but there's an enormous economic difference. The economic difference is that people value bitcoin. It has subjective value, and the subjective value is what matters. Quite frankly, gold has not a huge amount of practical value either. You can do a lot more useful things with bronze or iron. Most of gold's value comes from gold being perceived as valuable. Welcome to subjective value.

Now why are some other coins useful? Two reasons: a few are actually backed by money. This is rare, and honestly not too trustworthy, but occasionally works. The second, more important reason? The rules of the ledger. You can design a really cool ruleset which allows for a lot of different things, with Etherium being the most prominent example of this, with one of the most complex rulesets, allowing for computation and complex stuff like smart contracts (effectively an implementation of a legal contract into code, that automatically does what it is in the publicly available code, and can cause money to change hands without requirement for a third trusted party).

What's an NFT? Literally what it says, a non-fungible token. It's just a string of numbers and letters on a ledger that can be traded between people, same as a cryptocoin. The only difference is that the NFT always stays separate (your account won't say you have 5.4 NFTs, but instead say you have NFT#1, NFT#2, etc). Why is this useful? Well, not for laying claim to some sort of digital art, that's for sure. What it could be useful for is linking an NFT to a real world document, like a land deed, or ownership of a IRL piece of art.


Now let's combine this altogether in an imagined crypto society. Say you were looking to buy a house in a specific neighborhood, and were willing to offer ~$400k cash in hand for it, but only if the deal is made by the end of 2023. You'd create a smart contract that can automatically transfer 200 ETH (1 Etherium is about $2.3k) if any of a certain number of specific NFTs are transferred to you prior to Jan 1 2024, each NFT listed being a land deed for an acceptable house in that neighborhood.

Now if someone wants to sell their house for that price, all they need to do is transfer the NFT. There's no need for a third party notary. No need to travel. No need to get government approval. No worries about theft or someone trying to strong arm the other, as there's no need for the two of you to even know who the other person is, much less meet.


Obviously, I've elided over details there, like legalities etc, but this is the basic idea of crypto: easy transactions.


Now one big question is who gets to control the rules of a ledger, and here's the big difference between crypto and CBDCs. In a decentralized crypto world, there's effectively 'voting' on rule changes, which are notoriously hard to do for non-shitcoins. For a CBDC? The creator always has complete control. The ledger was never actually decentralized.
 
See, calling it Tulip Mania? You are at least in the ballpark. And frankly yes, a lot of cryptos are Tulip Mania (notably how NFTs were used). But Tulipmania is far different than a Ponzi scheme.


Anyway, figured I'd type up a quick primer on what crypto actually is:

The way to think of the blockchain is really as a ledger. It's a ledger where anyone can write in it according to the rules of the ledger, but you can't edit or change what was written before. (Technically there's wrong stuff there, in fact a lot of technically wrong stuff there, but this is trying to get across the basic idea and is accurate enough).

Bitcoin was the first such ledger, and in it, it had tokens. These tokens were fungible, and are given to users. Each new block in the chain is an entry in the ledger, saying who gave how many tokens to whom, and also the author of the entry can give himself some set number of new tokens for making this entry (that's the mining). The point of the mining is to incentivize people doing enough computational work to write new blocks, and thus allow transactions.

The key thing is that there isn't anything special about the Bitcoin ledger. The rules are very simple, but it's very easy to just start up a new ledger with the same rules. And this is what shitcoins are. Copies of the original. There's in truth no scientific difference between a shitcoin and a bitcoin, but there's an enormous economic difference. The economic difference is that people value bitcoin. It has subjective value, and the subjective value is what matters. Quite frankly, gold has not a huge amount of practical value either. You can do a lot more useful things with bronze or iron. Most of gold's value comes from gold being perceived as valuable. Welcome to subjective value.

Now why are some other coins useful? Two reasons: a few are actually backed by money. This is rare, and honestly not too trustworthy, but occasionally works. The second, more important reason? The rules of the ledger. You can design a really cool ruleset which allows for a lot of different things, with Etherium being the most prominent example of this, with one of the most complex rulesets, allowing for computation and complex stuff like smart contracts (effectively an implementation of a legal contract into code, that automatically does what it is in the publicly available code, and can cause money to change hands without requirement for a third trusted party).

What's an NFT? Literally what it says, a non-fungible token. It's just a string of numbers and letters on a ledger that can be traded between people, same as a cryptocoin. The only difference is that the NFT always stays separate (your account won't say you have 5.4 NFTs, but instead say you have NFT#1, NFT#2, etc). Why is this useful? Well, not for laying claim to some sort of digital art, that's for sure. What it could be useful for is linking an NFT to a real world document, like a land deed, or ownership of a IRL piece of art.


Now let's combine this altogether in an imagined crypto society. Say you were looking to buy a house in a specific neighborhood, and were willing to offer ~$400k cash in hand for it, but only if the deal is made by the end of 2023. You'd create a smart contract that can automatically transfer 200 ETH (1 Etherium is about $2.3k) if any of a certain number of specific NFTs are transferred to you prior to Jan 1 2024, each NFT listed being a land deed for an acceptable house in that neighborhood.

Now if someone wants to sell their house for that price, all they need to do is transfer the NFT. There's no need for a third party notary. No need to travel. No need to get government approval. No worries about theft or someone trying to strong arm the other, as there's no need for the two of you to even know who the other person is, much less meet.


Obviously, I've elided over details there, like legalities etc, but this is the basic idea of crypto: easy transactions.


Now one big question is who gets to control the rules of a ledger, and here's the big difference between crypto and CBDCs. In a decentralized crypto world, there's effectively 'voting' on rule changes, which are notoriously hard to do for non-shitcoins. For a CBDC? The creator always has complete control. The ledger was never actually decentralized.


dude to be frank....this honestly seems like a libertarian Utopia that I don't see working...on the Brightside it won't have a body count of millions...hopefully.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
dude to be frank....this honestly seems like a libertarian Utopia that I don't see working...on the Brightside it won't have a body count of millions...hopefully.
Hiding it from the tax collector is the main libertarian goal. Remember that Americans tend to be quite loathe to paying taxes and that the US Constitution explicitly grants Congress the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises ..."

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 if you're interested.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
dude to be frank....this honestly seems like a libertarian Utopia that I don't see working...on the Brightside it won't have a body count of millions...hopefully.
Eh, it's pretty close. All it would take is combining the Silk Road with Zillow, and transitioning from Bitcoin to the second most famous and reliable crypto, Etherium.

The thing is, the US doesn't need this. We have a more or less functioning system. The use case is really for places where transfer of property requires a ton of bribes and time.

Also, we don't promise Utopia. We simply say that our methods stop one group of thugs from harming you.

Hiding it from the tax collector is the main libertarian goal. Remember that Americans tend to be quite loathe to paying taxes and that the US Constitution explicitly grants Congress the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises ..."

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 if you're interested.
Again, you show you don't know what you are talking about. This barely affects taxation at all. In fact, its worse at hiding momey than simple cash (or at least bitcoin is). The goal instead is that it ignores government laws controlling capital flow, anonymous, not in person purchase of illegal goods, and most importantly, robs control of money from the government.

This isn't tax avoidance.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
In exchange for another group of thugs that's equally bad just in a different way which kind of defeats the purpose of changing a system In the first place.
No. That's the thing, those thugs already exist, it's just right now they use the government as an unstoppable boot. Without that much added power, they'd be a lot easier to resist.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
No. That's the thing, those thugs already exist, it's just right now they use the government as an unstoppable boot. Without that much added power, they'd be a lot easier to resist.
That's the theory.

In practice, I find Libertarians miss the things that really motivate people, so they never understand why they can't get anywhere.


There's a reason why I think culture is more important than laws.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
That's the theory.

In practice, I find Libertarians miss the things that really motivate people, so they never understand why they can't get anywhere.


There's a reason why I think culture is more important than laws.
Eh, not exactly. Libertarianism ignores that, but not libertarians. Libertarianism is an intentionally incomplete philosophy. It only labels certain actions as bad, it says absolutely nothing about what is good in life. So different libertarians come to different conclusions there.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
That's the theory.

In practice, I find Libertarians miss the things that really motivate people, so they never understand why they can't get anywhere.


There's a reason why I think culture is more important than laws.

Eh, not exactly. Libertarianism ignores that, but not libertarians. Libertarianism is an intentionally incomplete philosophy. It only labels certain actions as bad, it says absolutely nothing about what is good in life. So different libertarians come to different conclusions there.
I actually agree with Abhorsen here. You can use Libertarianism in conjunction with many different moral philosophies to create a full scope political and social philosophy. Libertarianism is mainly focused, as a philosophy, or the relationship between people and government. Much of the rest of it is silent on other aspects of morality beyond the idea of the Non-Aggression Principle, which is so broad as to be highly malleable due to circumstance.

IE, In a Warhammer 40k Libertarian Utopia, worshipping Warp Daemons and organizing Daemon Cults would still be illegal and likely punishable by death just like how the Imperium proper handles it because the active worship of Warp Daemons pretty clearly violates the non-aggression principle with how doing so invariably leads to Warp Corruption, which then causes harm to everyone around the daemon worshippers thus violating the Non-aggression principle.

Or, in a less fantastic over the top scenario, pairing Libertarianism with Christian morality leads to things like abortion being generally illegal, as under the combined moral system abortion would be a clear violation of the non-aggression principle. And meanwhile while an idealized Christian Libertarian Utopia wouldn't, say, require everyone to be married, you can structure certain laws and society within Libertarian limits to encourage marriage easily, and it likely would be so.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Eh, not exactly. Libertarianism ignores that, but not libertarians. Libertarianism is an intentionally incomplete philosophy. It only labels certain actions as bad, it says absolutely nothing about what is good in life. So different libertarians come to different conclusions there.
I actually agree with Abhorsen here. You can use Libertarianism in conjunction with many different moral philosophies to create a full scope political and social philosophy. Libertarianism is mainly focused, as a philosophy, or the relationship between people and government. Much of the rest of it is silent on other aspects of morality beyond the idea of the Non-Aggression Principle, which is so broad as to be highly malleable due to circumstance.

I've never met anybody who can think that way.

If you're a Christian, fine. The Libertarian phlilosophy around the edges, ok.

That means you have to be a Christian first. Libertarians can't be the basis of society.


And, quite a few religions/philosophies that could be the basis are incompatible with Libertarian thought.


It's a pity. I used to be a Libertarian, and I still agree with much of it's thought. I just don't think it can work.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
That means you have to be a Christian first. Libertarians can't be the basis of society.
Not of society, but of society's interaction with government. That's what it should be the base of. And you absolutely can combine that with Christianity (Or at least Catholicism with a Pope not calling for a holy war or something stupid). I'm pretty sure it can also be combined it with Judaism. It's compatible with any system that doesn't actively require you to go do violence in response to non-aggressive actions.

Note that it's incompatible with Islam because of the demands for Sharia law. But if you felt that only you had to follow Sharia, but there was no requirement to impose it on others, it would be compatible.


Now I will note that I do follow the incomplete libertarianism currently, because I haven't yet found something to complete it with. But I will note that just Libertarianism itself has made me a significantly better person morally and a better family member as well. Internalizing self ownership of what I've done, and that I am responsible for relationships between me and my family has been a great help.

Basically, it can be expanded somewhat, but it will remain certainly incomplete. Currently, I don't believe in god, and while I'm willing to change, I'd need some definite evidence of some sort that there is a god, and it is the correct one. I've considered beginning to attend a church or two as an attempt to complete this, but I'm frankly unsure which church to begin with. Catholic School very much ruined Catholicism for me, so I'd have no idea where to start.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
A chef in Mexico named Caesar Cardini invented Caesar Salad. Not related to Rome at all.



Though to be fair Caesar Cardini was of Italian heritage and born there... and apparently lived in America for long periods of time, including when he passed away at the age of sixty in 1956.

And looking into it the Cardini Family brand name was eventually purchased by a food specialty company as you can see in the website below, serving a wide variety of dressings and other assorted sauciness.


So maybe he is still being remembered.
 
I've never met anybody who can think that way.

If you're a Christian, fine. The Libertarian phlilosophy around the edges, ok.

That means you have to be a Christian first. Libertarians can't be the basis of society.


And, quite a few religions/philosophies that could be the basis are incompatible with Libertarian thought.

It's a pity. I used to be a Libertarian, and I still agree with much of it's thought. I just don't think it can work.
I'm going to burst your bubble a little here. nothing "Works." Mobs change with the fads even unto thier own destruction. there is no hands free low maintenance system that will solve every woe for every person...not here on earth anyway. To make something work you have to actively make it work. Which means not taking the path of convenience when it benefits you in the short term. As they say nothing is more permanent than a temporary government program. Also keep in mind that the only influence you on anyone is yourself and everyone around you if you wait for the world to make a decision for you the only thing you'll be is more spinless and flaccid than a limp noodle.
 

Yinko

Well-known member
I'm going to burst your bubble a little here. nothing "Works."
Define "works". Things don't have to be functional for the individual for society to function, they have to function for the aggregate. Which is why cultures that seem like they should be on the brink of failure chug along for decades.
Mobs change with the fads even unto their own destruction. there is no hands free low maintenance system that will solve every woe for every person
Cultures are organisms in their own version of an ecosystem. The optimum for a homogenous system is not the same optimum for one beset by competitors. Right now we are facing the conflict between rationalization and reality, and rationalization is going to get it's nose bashed in. For centuries the West has adored the idea of a rationalist governmental system, based on numbers and stats. Naturally this is merely the backdrop for their political and ideological aspirations, one cannot have stats be the basis for their political theory.

The rate of change determines the aging rate for a society. What took the Romans a millennium will take us less than a century. At the end of the day, change equals racing to our cultural grave. High change democratic/capitalisms is like using steroids to make oneself look healthier despite the consequences. The cause of imperial downfall is either excess instead of moderation, or imprudence.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Nashville band says singer secretly dosed bassist with estrogen in attempt to steal his girl, causing severe medical issues

This small-time hardcore band has skyrocketed to viral fame in one of the most unexpected ways possible - a hormone attack!

The singer of a Nashville-based punk band, Llorona, has allegedly been secretly dosing his bandmate with estrogen in hopes of winning over his fiancée.

The band took to Instagram (@llorona.hc, which doesn't seem to be active anymore, but don't worry - there are screenshots) to explain the band drama, alleging that the vocalist "Diego" tried to "force a transition" on his friend by spiking his pre-workout drinks with the female hormone.


Well that's a novel way in attempts at eliminating the competition in amorous affairs.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
See, the problem with this sort of thing is that these idiots never take into consideration the thoughts, feelings, and attitudes of the target themselves.

So, a best-friend or acquaintance just tried to engineer a situation where you would break up with your fiance, boyfriend/girlfriend, or spouse so that they can swoop in while you're vulnerable. Maybe they succeeded, but then that brings to the surface in time the 'consequences' of your newly founded relationship being unknowingly to you founded on deception.

Then what?

And what guarantees would the instigator have that he/she is even interested in them in the first place? Or that "I only tolerated you because you were X's/Y's old friend, so now I'm not dating/with him/her anymore, fuck off, you creepy shit" was their actual attitude all along?
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
So...man uses poison to get friend out of the way so man can have shot with friend's fiance. So...'man' uses a woman's weapon of choice to make the friend into a less manly man...fiance won't leave friend b/c now friend is much more compassionate towards fiance being all emotional and supportive of fiance...man strengthens friend's relationship with fiance through poison...

At least that's the running gag in my head.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Not-Quite-Jurassic Park

Montana Man Pleads Guilty to Creating Massive Franken-Sheep With Cloned Animal Parts


BB1jMWoa.img
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
I can understand the authorities not wanting yet another invasive species, but damn, got to admire what the guy did.
 

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