Marvel Hot take: Marvel Comics Need a Reboot.

[KilroywasNOTHere]

So I've been making a Spider-Man fan comic in an effort to try and undo One More Day at least for myself. I thought it was going to be a relatively simple task. Spider-Man made a deal with the devil to undo his marriage in order to save his aunt. Simply have him fight the devil remarry marry jane bota bing Bota boom deal undone simple task.

Except...the more I dig into Spider-man's history, the more I found a history of lack of character, character fridging...corporate mandates, and honestly....the revelation that the crap we think is plaguing Marvel comics now was plaguing it even back then.

Spider-Man's backstory is fairly simple. A young teenage boy gets bit by a radioactive spider and develops spider-like attributes. At first, he gets a big head using his powers, until one day he neglects to stop a crook that would then turn around and murder his uncle. Distraught over the death of someone he loves and alone, Spider-Man vows to uphold his responsibility and never let something like that happen again.

Fast forward a bit to 1971 life hits Peter but he manages. He goes to university he gets a job dead in or not, and he manages to find love in the form of a woman named Gwen Stacy. The two hit it off and are even going to get married. It looks like Spider-Man may finally grow up and move on beyond his past regrets...and then Gwen is kidnapped by the Green Goblin and is thrown off a bridge. Spider-Man tries to save her but accidentally breaks her neck and she dies. Distraught over the death of someone he loves and alone, Spider-Man...vows to uphold his responsibility and never let something like that happen again...huh.

Fast forward a few years (and several attempts to bring back Gwen that were never followed through on and/or were retconned) Spider-man rekindles his love and his spirit in another woman named Mary Jane. The two fall in love and they Mary. It looks like Spider-man is finally going to finally grow up and move on beyond his past regrets... it's 2007 and Aunt May gets shot. When no one can help him (conveniently enough) he makes a deal with the devil...his marriage in exchange for Aunt May's life. Alone, Spider-Man...vows to uphold his responsibility and...never let something like that happen...again.

it's now 2023 there lots of Fake-outs with MJ and Peter Spider-man is rekindled with a relationship with Felicia. He makes friends with the likes of Kamala Kahn AKA Ms Marvel...she dies and Distraught over the death of someone he loves and alone, Spider-Man...vows to uphold....his responsibility and never let something like that happen...again! Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?

It seems like every time any writer whether it's stan lee or another writer tries to push Spider-man forward past his origin story, Corporate or someone seems to want to keep Spider-man in a perpetual cycle. it really seems like Marvel characters are not characters...they are plot devices and it's not just Spider-man or Gwen Stacy. The X-men have never evolved past being a political pedestal even going as far as to make their own black...I mean Mutant Ethnostate. Carol Danvers had all the potential to be Marvels answer to Superman/Supergirl and it wasn't till the 2000s that marvel did anything with her only to walk it back.
50 years of lore has led to a massive mess of character arcs repeating themselves. Plot holes and retcons that contradict itself, and an overall feeling that these aren't stories so much as they are soaps, individual moments that you are supposed to individually be invested in but not really take seriously in the grand scheme of things but for those of us who do like stories with continuity and character evolution (Which I'd argue is most people) it just leaves a bitter taste in our mouths.


At this point, I can't read any Marvel comic within the main universe past or present without seeing the corporate strings. Like with wrestling, I see the corperate mandate behind every plotline and character decision. Except unlike with wrestling where I'm meant to enjoy the wrestlers themselves as opposed to the storyline. Marvel tries to emotionally manipulate the readers into getting invested in the story. Every cheap throwback to older comics or Gwen Stacy resurrection fake-out just feels bitter and cynical.

What I'm about to suggest is likely to pee off a lot of Marvel comic book fans new and old and 10 years ago or heck even 1 year ago I would not have suggested such a thing myself. I think Marvel Comics needs a hard reboot. I think Earth-616 needs to be retired and Marvel needs to start over. The Cape Genre has evolved as well as the medium of Illustrated storytelling. People like in-depth well rounded characters they like progressive continuity that doesn't trip over itself in contradictions, people want to see the characters they are invested in earn their place and not backtrack...and I think we need new Marvel comics that can reflect that.

Honestly, I think a reboot can help Marvel get rid of redundancies (Seriously we don't need both Gwen Stacy AND Mary Jane when one can easily fill in the role of the other and we already have a foil in Black Cat. There is a reason why Lana Lang is not a major part of the Superman mythos anymore) and gives characters that were a living embodiment of wasted potential a chance to shine. (looking at you Ms Marvel)


And I'm aware that this is going to be a hot take because a lot of people like the fact that Marvel has 50+ years of continuous continuity but I think clinging to that continuity and that Status Quo by any means necessary at all costs, at the cost of character growth is what's caused the current situation it has.


Anyway. Just my depression-fueled rants. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[S'task]

I actually proposed something like this but way more extensive a few years back on another forum. What I did further is break up the books into particular periods to also keep certain eras from being overbloated and stop some of the ridiculousness of the weird timeline shenanigans Marvel constantly had to pull to keep everyone in the same period (IE, when Steve Rogers comes out of the ice keeps changing, etc.).

Basically have four distinct eras of Marvel: World War 2 and the early Cold War (1940s-50s), The Nuclear Age (1960s - 1980s), The Rise of Heroes (1990s - 2000s), and the Modern Era (2010 - Present). Generally speaking you'd keep certain heroes to their specific eras unless there was good reason for them to transcend eras. And while you could have cameos outside those eras for those heroes, their main books would be focused on those periods, and their relationships with the later era should fall into a support / mentor role.

To use an MCU template, Iron Man would be a character that should be focused on the Rise of Modern Heroes era (1990s - 2000s), you set his origin story as part of the first Iraq War and all his big adventures as Iron Man happen in that period. He can appear in the Modern Era, but he would be older and taking on the mentor role to, say, Peter Parker, whom, since Marvel constantly wants to keep him as a teenager, you put in Modern Era.

Figures that transcend eras need to have very good reason to, IE Wolverine with his long life and healing factor can transcend periods easily enough, but Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandoes should remain focused on WW2 and have him founding and running SHIELD in the Nuclear Age, but long since retired by the Rise and Modern eras.

Oh, most of the X-men would be focused on the Nuclear Age, as befitting both their origin and aesthetic. The fight for Mutant Rights etc. should be something that was over and in the past by the Rise era, albeit perhaps with some lingering resentments. But the changes the Mutants bring about to laws and such are what enables the Rise of Heroes and later Modern era.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

And I'm aware that this is going to be a hot take because a lot of people like the fact that Marvel has 50+ years of continuous continuity but I think clinging to that continuity and that Status Quo by any means necessary at all costs, at the cost of character growth is what's caused the current situation it has.


Anyway. Just my depression-fueled rants. What are your thoughts on this?

Marvel saw how badly the DC reboot went over.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I actually proposed something like this but way more extensive a few years back on another forum. What I did further is break up the books into particular periods to also keep certain eras from being overbloated and stop some of the ridiculousness of the weird timeline shenanigans Marvel constantly had to pull to keep everyone in the same period (IE, when Steve Rogers comes out of the ice keeps changing, etc.).

Basically have four distinct eras of Marvel: World War 2 and the early Cold War (1940s-50s), The Nuclear Age (1960s - 1980s), The Rise of Heroes (1990s - 2000s), and the Modern Era (2010 - Present). Generally speaking you'd keep certain heroes to their specific eras unless there was good reason for them to transcend eras. And while you could have cameos outside those eras for those heroes, their main books would be focused on those periods, and their relationships with the later era should fall into a support / mentor role.

To use an MCU template, Iron Man would be a character that should be focused on the Rise of Modern Heroes era (1990s - 2000s), you set his origin story as part of the first Iraq War and all his big adventures as Iron Man happen in that period. He can appear in the Modern Era, but he would be older and taking on the mentor role to, say, Peter Parker, whom, since Marvel constantly wants to keep him as a teenager, you put in Modern Era.

Figures that transcend eras need to have very good reason to, IE Wolverine with his long life and healing factor can transcend periods easily enough, but Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandoes should remain focused on WW2 and have him founding and running SHIELD in the Nuclear Age, but long since retired by the Rise and Modern eras.

Oh, most of the X-men would be focused on the Nuclear Age, as befitting both their origin and aesthetic. The fight for Mutant Rights etc. should be something that was over and in the past by the Rise era, albeit perhaps with some lingering resentments. But the changes the Mutants bring about to laws and such are what enables the Rise of Heroes and later Modern era.

Honestly, if you did that you wouldn't even need Cap to be in Ice. You could have him age and become a badbutt old man (I always liked the idea of the older super soldiers get the stronger they get.

honestly, though I think Spider-man needs to be in the 90s and 2000s Era could be like your Golden age with the likes of Spider-man Iron man, Ms marvel Hawkeye ect. present can be like Miles Moralis Kamala Kahn Kate Biship Cassie lang Ect.

Marvel saw how badly the DC reboot went over.

except DC is actually starting to get better, especially with the likes of Batman and Superman. Plus DC has a better history in terms of using thier characters overall.

 

[S'task]

honestly, though I think Spider-man needs to be in the 90s and 2000s Era could be like your Golden age with the likes of Spider-man Iron man, Ms marvel Hawkeye ect. present can be like Miles Moralis Kamala Kahn Kate Biship Cassie lang Ect.

Oh, I don't actually disagree, I actually like the concept of an adult Spider-Man who's married, maybe even having a kid. I'm of the firm opinion the worst crime of One More Day was the explicit elimination of Mayday Parker from the timeline, as the storytelling potential of Peter teaching his daughter the ropes of superheroing is enormous.

Peter not being allowed to mature and grow in the comics is one of the big issues. There was a period of time he was allowed to, actually for MOST of his run he was allowed to progress. You kinda glossed over it but the period between Gwen Stacy's death and One More Day is

But Marvel seems completely stuck on the idea of Peter Parker High School Student, which is why I put him younger...

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Oh, I don't actually disagree, I actually like the concept of an adult Spider-Man who's married, maybe even having a kid. I'm of the firm opinion the worst crime of One More Day was the explicit elimination of Mayday Parker from the timeline, as the storytelling potential of Peter teaching his daughter the ropes of superheroing is enormous.

Peter not being allowed to mature and grow in the comics is one of the big issues. There was a period of time he was allowed to, actually for MOST of his run he was allowed to progress. You kinda glossed over it but the period between Gwen Stacy's death and One More Day is

But Marvel seems completely stuck on the idea of Peter Parker High School Student, which is why I put him younger...

I'm honestly torn between whether I believe "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" or "One More Day" as being the worst. OMD is objectively the worse story in every possible metric and it effectively killed Spider-Man and was essentially the Herald of Marvel's destruction...but I look back at "Gwen Stacy" and I can already start to see the cracks that would lead to the problems that marvel is facing. basically, if OMD was stage 4 cancer, The Night Gwen Stacy Died was either the elevated bloodwork or stage 1.

to use another example, it's like acknowledging that The Last Jedi is worse than The Force Awakens, but personally hating to Force Awakens more because the stuff behind the decision making behind the scenes is what lead to The Last Jedi

It also doesn't help that it seems like when Gwen Stacy is brought up in modern and postmodern Spider-Man it's in some of the worst storylines in Spider-Man. Sins Past, The Clone Saga...Spider-Gwen, the entire Zeb Wells run. Like for me, One More Day as bad as it was, was a bad storyline that COULD be retconned at some point while Gwen Stacy at this point seemed to be a ghostly reminder (quite literally in some cases) that it doesn't matter how long these series go on now matter how many resurrections (in the case of Gwen) or renewed vows (in the case of Mary Jane) is teased, Peter (of Earth-616 anyway) is never going to be allowed to grow never going to be allowed to well...move on. and any attempt to do so regardless of whomever Spider-Man gets shipped with, it's all going to be retconned.

oh and I do not get Marvel's obsession with Peter Parker High School student.

I honestly think the Sam Rami Trilogy along with Spider-Man TAS is some of the best Spider-Man media out there. As it kept the core of the comics and what makes Spider-Man who he is while trimming the fat. (Plus we can thank Spider-Man TAS for essentially creating the Venom we all know and love)

 

[Jormungandr]

In theory? Could work.

In practicality? Not a chance.

All you have to do is look at the utter clusterfucks that DC and Star Wars have become as prime examples.

DC? We now have a fucking gay superman campaigning for Groomers United's rights, and "I'm Not Starfire".

Star Wars? Yeah, I don't even need to explain how badly that entire franchise has been bungled.

Marvel going that way would have it murdered, some insidious thing sliding into its corpse, and "Marvel" releasing shit after shit after shit -- at least with the creaky foundations you can actually try to build something good from the lore and canon than wiping it away and building a turd-pile in its place.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

In theory? Could work.

In practicality? Not a chance.

All you have to do is look at the utter clusterfucks that DC and Star Wars have become as prime examples.

DC? We now have a fucking gay superman campaigning for Groomers United's rights, and "I'm Not Starfire".

Star Wars? Yeah, I don't even need to explain how badly that entire franchise has been bungled.

Marvel going that way would have it murdered, some insidious thing sliding into its corpse, and "Marvel" releasing shit after shit after shit -- at least with the creaky foundations you can actually try to build something good from the lore and canon than wiping it away and building a turd-pile in its place.

So what's marvels best shot at this point? the comics are dead. All interest in comics with their current philosophy and formula is dead. So what happens? Do all those cool character designs and ideas just get trashed and fade into the sands of time? That's about the worst fate for any creator or artist. I'm not saying current Marvel can make my idea work. If anything, I am saying Marvel as a company has to fundamentally change if it wants its comics to survive.

 

[Jormungandr]

So what's marvels best shot at this point? the comics are dead. All interest in comics with their current philosophy and formula is dead. So what happens? Do all those cool character designs and ideas just get trashed and fade into the sands of time? That's about the worst fate for any creator or artist. I'm not saying current Marvel can make my idea work. If anything, I am saying Marvel as a company has to fundamentally change if it wants its comics to survive.

I honestly don't know, but I do know that rebooting in this social and political climate would kill off the brand completely.

The Leftoids and Wokies already have their tentacles into Marvel, but they're still constrained by the lore and canon that's gone before when times weren't, bluntly, so fucking insane.

If you take that away and give them carte blanche, I guarantee you we will see something like a Pansexual Steve Rogers, a Peter Parker that likes seeing Mary Jane pegging her boyfriend while he watches in a corner (a "throuple"), or a trans-trender Thor (which is fucking hilarious and ironic given Loki in Norse and Marvel lore) complaining about Asgard's "patriarchy".

Oh, and Black Widow would become a butch lesbian. Clint Barton, a hetero, happily married White male with the stereotypical 2.4 kid family? Yeah, he'd be for the chopping block in some way.

So yeah, a reboot? Suicide. They'd happily slit Marvel's throat for their own fucked up messages and agendas.

 

[Terthna]

So what's marvels best shot at this point? the comics are dead. All interest in comics with their current philosophy and formula is dead. So what happens? Do all those cool character designs and ideas just get trashed and fade into the sands of time? That's about the worst fate for any creator or artist. I'm not saying current Marvel can make my idea work. If anything, I am saying Marvel as a company has to fundamentally change if it wants its comics to survive.

I think we need to accept that the vast majority of IPs are a lost cause for the foreseeable future. Because it's not just Marvel that needs to change; it's the entire western entertainment industry and western civilization as a whole that needs to cut out the cancer that is regressive leftism, and go through an extensive chemotherapy regime to ensure that it won't just grow back again. Until that happen Marvel, and everything else that's been infected, will never recover.

 

[Blasterbot]

I think that if marvel wanted to make something popular it would be easy. they know the formulas that worked for it. they just purposely chose not to follow them. they could make an IP that is successful. they refuse to.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I think we need to accept that the vast majority of IPs are a lost cause for the foreseeable future. Because it's not just Marvel that needs to change; it's the entire western entertainment industry and western civilization as a whole that needs to cut out the cancer that is regressive leftism, and go through an extensive chemotherapy regime to ensure that it won't just grow back again. Until that happen Marvel, and everything else that's been infected, will never recover.

yeah sorry, I'm not surrendering my formative years (and heck even parts of my identity to these...barbarians.

 

[Terthna]

yeah sorry, I'm not surrendering my formative years (and heck even parts of my identity to these...barbarians.

I can respect that, but you need to understand that what exists now isn't what you grew up with; it's a monster wearing its skin to try and trick you into dropping your guard. Don't fall for it.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Personally, I'm sick of seeing the same characters and franchises resurrected and regurgitated over and over again. You need to let it go and move on with your life. It's important to look at things that aren't Star Wars or Spiderman or whatever. Find new things to enjoy.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Personally, I'm sick of seeing the same characters and franchises resurrected and regurgitated over and over again. You need to let it go and move on with your life. It's important to look at things that aren't Star Wars or Spiderman or whatever. Find new things to enjoy.

Alright Kylo Ren. And if we move on they will take that too. I will never move on. I'll enjoy new things as I passive find them but no I will die on this hill. If more people had done that, we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

if we move on they will take that too.

They already took it! It's inevitable with corporate art. Once a corporation owns the license to something, that something will be doomed to be milked by a corporation forever. There is no escape. Corporations are staffed by people. The old creators of a franchise leave and are replaced, and in this age you have people who infiltrate corporations and use their power to push their agendas. Once beloved franchises will never go back to the way they were.

If more people had done that, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Most people don't care. They have jobs and lives and limited free time. Most people aren't going to spend their limited free time scrounging around trying to find old movies to watch before the endless sequels happened. They're just going to watch or read whatever is currently being promoted. The corporations have conglomerated and control what is shown in theaters, what gets put on bookshelves in Barnes & Noble, what gets promoted on news outlets and rotten tomatoes, and so on. If you print it and put it on the shelf and people can't find anything else to buy, then people will buy it. It doesn't matter that Disney Star Wars or modern Marvel is crap. It is what is advertised so people will watch it.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

They already took it! It's inevitable with corporate art. Once a corporation owns the license to something, that something will be doomed to be milked by a corporation forever. There is no escape. Corporations are staffed by people. The old creators of a franchise leave and are replaced, and in this age you have people who infiltrate corporations and use their power to push their agendas. Once beloved franchises will never go back to the way they were.

They already took it! It's inevitable with corporate art. Once a corporation owns the license to something, that something will be doomed to be milked by a corporation forever. There is no escape. Corporations are staffed by people. The old creators of a franchise leave and are replaced, and in this age you have people who infiltrate corporations and use their power to push their agendas. Once beloved franchises will never go back to the way they were.




Most people don't care. They have jobs and lives and limited free time. Most people aren't going to spend their limited free time scrounging around trying to find old movies to watch before the endless sequels happened. They're just going to watch or read whatever is currently being promoted. The corporations have conglomerated and control what is shown in theaters, what gets put on bookshelves in Barnes & Noble, what gets promoted on news outlets and rotten tomatoes, and so on. If you print it and put it on the shelf and people can't find anything else to buy, then people will buy it. It doesn't matter that Disney Star Wars or modern Marvel is crap. It is what is advertised so people will watch it.

*Sigh* alright I'm just going to drop this conversation with you. If I keep this going it's going to turn into me shouting a bunch of ad hominems and I'd rather not get a strike.

 

[Terthna]

Alright Kylo Ren. And if we move on they will take that too. I will never move on. I'll enjoy new things as I passive find them but no I will die on this hill. If more people had done that, we wouldn't be in this mess.

You don't have to move on; just don't mistake your love for it as love for the faceless corporations controlled by fanatic ideologs that claim ownership of it. Cut them out of it, and make it your own. Don't wait around for them to come to their senses and fix it; fix it yourself, or find some like-minded author or artist or game developer who already has. Or at the very least trim the fat, and reject the parts of it you don't like and those who make it. We are all capable of creating worlds; fill yours with the things you love in their best forms, and not the insulting knockoffs they keep trying to sell you.