Gate opens up at Tulln 9/5/1683

[ATP]

Okay you know what? Who's in favor of trying to start writing this, because it sounds like a pretty good script and action launch. It would be so much easier to discuss what should happen and how.
Another thing is that I think Wiverns are much weaker than Chiron thinks, their biggest advantage is that no one from Europe will know how to fight them effectively.

Wivers in my opinion are used as scouts and eyes for the commander to know where his units are. And thanks to the fact that they fly they can be very effective as couriers, better than those on horseback, which makes it easier to command the huge formations that Sadera puts out, which may also explain how they are able to direct the forces they put out. And at the same time they are able to control such a large territory without wasting most of their energy on keeping them together with their level of technology.

And this, in my opinion, gives Sadera a real advantage over Europe, because they can react faster than them to attacks as well as conduct counter-attacks. And at the same time it explains why, despite everything, their armies did not change their command tactics and formation! Because there is no reason to do so, since the Vindicators do not serve in any other role than that of reconnaissance and communication. And this is a very serious change and advantage for Sadera.

Agree about wywerns,thanks to them Saderan could decide where to fight.
And,in my opinion,they would win battles in 1683 thanks to archers.Till allies&turks start giving their infrantry mail and helmets.

 

[Chiron]

I am pretty sure the "hypermatter" bit came in later to justify the ICS whank though, IIRC it is still hypermatter fusion.

Which is still canon thanks to their republishing and expansion to the sequels. Also Hypermatter is dual matter-antimatter reactions. The Star Wars universe is a near K3 civilization, Star Trek Federation was a solid K1.5 civilization.

We saw very, very little mage craft assisting the Sedaran troops.
The effectiveness of those mages is just as dubious as that of the Wyverns.
IIRC there was just that one guy that shot a rock at the enemy.
Also this reminds me, the Saderans are totally incompetent in that they decided to just waltz into a completely unknown world and try to conquer it without any intelligence.

Because they were killed pretty quickly and the rest of the Mages Guild was sore at the Emperor. We never got the opportunity to see Sadera fight a peer competitor. But judging by the armies of its vassals, its clear Wyvern and Mages play a key part in their wars.

Which if you use your fucking brain, would be pretty fucking clear.

Also, for a roman/medieval army organized for a single campaign, that figure is excessive.
The entirety of Rome's legions amounted to 160 thousand, tops.Total military strength was IIRC 350 thousand.
And I don't think that the Romans ever deployed all their legions in a single army.

The Roman Republic was easily throwing out 80,000 man Legions for Hannibal to smash. We of course are not counting their Allies or Auxiliaries. Also Sadera is more medieval level technology minus gunpowder which they were aware of due to skirmishes with Avion but had not figured out the formula yet. So the numbers are reasonable and they are canon.

Then, since it is the biggest and richest city in the area it probably gets attacked by the Saderans.

If they decide to instead of first securing a base of operations as its approaching Winter in this time frame.

No, my thesis is that formations, equipment and footsoldier army size would inevitably be changed by the use of mages and wyverns, if mages and wyverns were as numerous and effective as you claim they are.

Not necessarily, unless their opponent overmatches their mages and wyverns. Either by having more of them or having sufficient technology (JSDF). Mass infantry will still be needed because until the Mages win the Magic Fights and the Wyverns clear the skies, they need to engage the enemy and pin them. And they need to be able to win the shoving match. Hence the mass formations.

Non-motorized cavalry got slaughtered and died out.
Stormtroopers and assault rifles were introduced.
Trenches and kilometers-long defensive lines became far less useful and the WWI position war forced upon people by artillery and macheneguns became sort of obsolete.
Infantry reformed to support tanks and suppress them in advantageous situations with special equipment, but the WWI and pre-WWI formations and tactics became obsolete for the most part.

Cavalry played a massive role in the East and Middle East and when they could get an opening, wreaked absolute havoc in the rear. One such raid almost killed Hitler too.

Assault Rifles would not come till WW2.

Trenches are still used today and have evolved in their employment. Every competent Army knows how to entrench and has the tools to do it quickly.

Line formations are still used today to maximize firepower and minimize friendly fire. Soldiers storming a building still pack up tight as they need to cover each others butts once they get in a building as the attacks can come from anywhere.

There is no visible equivalent to such cahnges where wiverns and mages are concerned, ergo they are less numerous/effective than what you assume they are.

An assumption on your part not born out by facts. Again we never see Sadera fight a peer foe. We do see their vassals' armies and their corps of Mages and Wyverns before they were annihilated. It makes logical sense the Wyverns and Mages are a vital advantage and Sadera vassalized these nations as it had more Wyverns and Mages to at the very least keep the skies neutral.

Sorry, but Japan did ban the wheel and from a massive exporter of guns they most went back to using their silly swords.

Japan never exported firearms to begin with as they were in a bloody civil war for decades. Also the Samurai empathized the way of the spear over the sword which was a sidearm. Also Japan made extensive use of carts, so they certainly did not ban wheels or enforced one. Also Japanese Guns were kept, there were 200 gunsmiths on the Tokugawa Rolls in the Edo Period and in 1840 they began introducing flintlocks and did a mass emergency conversion of all matchlocks to Flintlocks after Perry's visit.

China did next to nothing with its massive tech advantage.

Because it was constantly at war and their production sites getting burnt down.

Also, you do realize that hand-carts are a thing?

Still need ground that can support them and roads for long travels.

Polish army have 3000 winged hussarls capable of going through anything which Saderans have except ogres,and each have 2 pistols.Enough to deter wywerns attack - horses would be spooked by wywerns,but but wywerns would be spooked by firing at them,too.
Moreover,polish King created kind of united calvary army with dragoons following calvary and fighting on foot delivering need fire,which mean,that wywerns would be repulsed by musket fired by them.

The Polish Hussars would be firing up and would be out of range to do much. The mere sight of the Wyverns would cause even the Hussars to panic. Then their is the flame breaths the Wyverns bring plus their riders own weapons. Then there is the fact that the Wyverns depending on their age, required no less than .50cal high velocity bullets which the 17th Century had yet to develop.

So no, they get routed and destroyed easily.

 

[Agent23]

Which is still canon thanks to their republishing and expansion to the sequels. Also Hypermatter is dual matter-antimatter reactions. The Star Wars universe is a near K3 civilization, Star Trek Federation was a solid K1.5 civilization.

Yeah, and if you do not read the fluff most people would make very different assumptions based on stuff like replicators and transporters.
But you are the one missing my point, again.
In our case we do not have any actual fluff about the wyvrns, just your assumptions.

Because they were killed pretty quickly and the rest of the Mages Guild was sore at the Emperor. We never got the opportunity to see Sadera fight a peer competitor. But judging by the armies of its vassals, its clear Wyvern and Mages play a key part in their wars.

Which if you use your fucking brain, would be pretty fucking clear.

The Roman Republic was easily throwing out 80,000 man Legions for Hannibal to smash. We of course are not counting their Allies or Auxiliaries. Also Sadera is more medieval level technology minus gunpowder which they were aware of due to skirmishes with Avion but had not figured out the formula yet. So the numbers are reasonable and they are canon.

Hannibal was a peer competitor that was an existential problem for the Romans, you know "Hannibal is at the gate" and all that shtick.
This is at most a conquistadores/crusade army type of situation.

If they decide to instead of first securing a base of operations as its approaching Winter in this time frame.



Not necessarily, unless their opponent overmatches their mages and wyverns. Either by having more of them or having sufficient technology (JSDF). Mass infantry will still be needed because until the Mages win the Magic Fights and the Wyverns clear the skies, they need to engage the enemy and pin them. And they need to be able to win the shoving match. Hence the mass formations.

So, why didn't they send recon teams of mages and wyverns to check out and clear out Ginza first?
Also, the wyverns were randomly swooping in so that their riders could spear people, you'd think that they might use some fire for faster crowd dispersion/shock and awe.
I mean, it is not like the Saderans are actually all that humane or anything.
Also, there were lots of wyverns flying around in the first episode, parts of which I rewatched yesterday.
There were precious few wyverns. 3 at the most maybe, I didn't see them breathing fire and most importantly:

Notice something?
As in, that big-ass spear the wyvern pilot is wielding.
Also, he lacks face protection, his hands and part of his chest under the armpits are not covered.

If Wyvern to Wyvern combat is common, or if you are riding a beast that shoots fire I'd think that you'd want more substantial protection than that.
The armor looks pretty flimsy and mostly metal, too, not a good idea to wrap yourself into a conductor of heat if you are facing fire-breathing enemies.

Cavalry played a massive role in the East and Middle East and when they could get an opening, wreaked absolute havoc in the rear. One such raid almost killed Hitler too.


Assault Rifles would not come till WW2.

Trenches are still used today and have evolved in their employment. Every competent Army knows how to entrench and has the tools to do it quickly.

Cavalry: Yes, but you'd basically send them to do fast deep strikes behind enemy lines, not send them against machineguns and trenches and barbed wire.
Assault Rifles: Ok, not a native English speaker here, what class of weapon is the Kalashnikov and the Tommy Gun, and that these guys used:

Stormtroopers (Imperial Germany) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You might know that we just call all that stuff avtomat.
That is what I am alluding to.

Line formations are still used today to maximize firepower and minimize friendly fire. Soldiers storming a building still pack up tight as they need to cover each others butts once they get in a building as the attacks can come from anywhere.

And urban warfare is very different from open field warfare, we already covered that.
It is an edge case where infantry has an advantage over airpower, tanks and artillery.
Unless of course, whoever is calling the shots doesn't decide to level the whole city.

An assumption on your part not born out by facts. Again we never see Sadera fight a peer foe. We do see their vassals' armies and their corps of Mages and Wyverns before they were annihilated. It makes logical sense the Wyverns and Mages are a vital advantage and Sadera vassalized these nations as it had more Wyverns and Mages to at the very least keep the skies neutral.

So why didn't they use more mages during the initial assault on Ginza?

I mean, we saw a few cool shots from the 3 Wyverns they had, so why not mages making all those people, aka spoils of war, fall down asleep?

Japan never exported firearms to begin with as they were in a bloody civil war for decades. Also the Samurai empathized the way of the spear over the sword which was a sidearm. Also Japan made extensive use of carts, so they certainly did not ban wheels or enforced one. Also Japanese Guns were kept, there were 200 gunsmiths on the Tokugawa Rolls in the Edo Period and in 1840 they began introducing flintlocks and did a mass emergency conversion of all matchlocks to Flintlocks after Perry's visit.

The documentaries I saw on the subject kinda contradict what you are saying, about both.
But I will leave your claims about guns uncontested.
The wheel prohibition was a existed

Because it was constantly at war and their production sites getting burnt down.

The biggest and most continuous civilization on the planet, they had gunpowder for over a thousand years before it came to the west.
And somehow the west managed to massively improve on it, while China stagnated.

Still need ground that can support them and roads for long travels.

Cities and their immediate areas?

Inter and intra-city transportation?

I mean, a cart, even a hand one can have a lot of uses and they were pretty urbanized.

But let us focus on the more important bits here, like the fact that Wyverns do not demonstrate the abilities you attribute to them and their riders have to carry bulky, cumbersome spears and are woefully under-equipped to take fire damage with all that metal and exposed flesh.

Contrast this with chemical warfare units today:

Sorry, I am not convinced the Wyverns are the gamechanger that you say they are.

 

[Batrix2070]

So no, they get routed and destroyed easily.

Wait a minute, do you think that a Polish elite cavalry unit, whose display is so fucking expensive, will just stand like a pillar of salt seeing someone on the wivern?
Yeah sure, they won't try to duck in front of the anticipated wivern fire as soon as the wivern starts firing. If not the cavalryman then his horse will try to escape the monster. And Polish horses were very fast, the fastest in all Europe.

Notice something?
As in, that big-ass spear the wyvern pilot is wielding.

Wait, they use lances?
He looks at the hussar lance. He recalls the ulans fantasy of the Poles. LaughterofamadPole.exe
Why do I sense that some of the Hussars will try to nab whoever is going on the wivern on their lance? And they will do so successfully.
It will be a challenge, but for Poles the cavalry lance is nothing new. Especially the Hussar lance being very long, longer than the pike, which made them the only cavalry formation that could charge directly at the pikemen and win.

 

[Agent23]

Wait, they use lances?
He looks at the hussar lance. He recalls the ulans fantasy of the Poles. LaughterofamadPole.exe
Why do I sense that some of the Hussars will try to nab whoever is going on the wivern on their lance? And they will do so successfully.
It will be a challenge, but for Poles the cavalry lance is nothing new. Especially the Hussar lance being very long, longer than the pike, which made them the only cavalry formation that could charge directly at the pikemen and win.

Winged hussar charging at a roman lancer riding a flying lizard...I think this thread has reached peak meme potential.

Anyways, back to screen caps:

This indicates that the initial force is 60k, so that gives the Poles and the Turks the numeric advantage.

Total expected losses from the Auxiliaries according to Molt is over 100 000, but that probably includes camp followers and the like, but IMHO the numbers from Ginza should be more precise, since it has been 2 months between the initial incursion and counter-incursion.

Also notice that Molt wanted them to die because that basically renders all of their subject kingdoms unable to take out the Empire when it is down.
So, a conservative estimate of 60k being a major force for the Empire is, of the size that they can ill afford to lose is, IMHO logical.

Furthermore, while the sub I have has no indicator of it the dub clearly says that the wyverns in Ginza which were hard to take out with .50 cal did not breathe fire.
So maybe it is a part of their growth process, where they become fire-breathing and exceedingly hard to control, and maybe they aren't viable weapons for that purpose.

In any case, we have a lot of evidence of their very, very limited real use on the battle field.

 

[Chiron]

Wait a minute, do you think that a Polish elite cavalry unit, whose display is so fucking expensive, will just stand like a pillar of salt seeing someone on the wivern?

Not so much them as their horses. Especially when they start breathing fire. Horses fear fire. And so do men, hence a visceral satisfaction when they see flametroops on fire.

Yeah sure, they won't try to duck in front of the anticipated wivern fire as soon as the wivern starts firing. If not the cavalryman then his horse will try to escape the monster. And Polish horses were very fast, the fastest in all Europe.

Wyverns are faster are coming on top of them and their riders carry lances and can come at any angle. So this can only end one way till high velocity rifles are developed to mitigate the threat, but only real way to counter is to get their own Wyverns. And the Saderans also have heavy cavalry of their own equipped similarly to Hussars.

 

[Agent23]

Not so much them as their horses. Especially when they start breathing fire. Horses fear fire. And so do men, hence a visceral satisfaction when they see flametroops on fire.

yeah, that whole fire breathing thing is put into question by some of the dialog I cited as well as by the fact that the riders are all that well protected, and tha they have spears in the first place.

 

[Batrix2070]

Wyverns are faster are coming on top of them and their riders carry lances and can come at any angle.

But do you realize that Wiverns and even small dragons have to stop for a moment to launch?
And Polish cavalry won't be stupid enough to wait, as soon as they see what's going on they'll know what's going to happen, because legends about dragons are known all over Europe.
What's more, as I mentioned, Polish cavalry was the best until Poland was dismantled, and such Hussars were trained in all kinds of maneuvers, including the Polish turn, which consisted of suddenly turning the entire formation 180 degrees in relation to the direction of travel.
Of course some will burn, but most will escape.

 

[Chiron]

In our case we do not have any actual fluff about the wyvrns, just your assumptions.

No, I have the actual fluff as well as the visual evidence posted earlier.

This is at most a conquistadores/crusade army type of situation.

Who don't have a technological overmatch against the Saderans which you keep missing. Also, the Conquistadores relied on Native Mercenaries heavily to conquer, and were helped by smallpox hitting an immunologically naïve population.

So, why didn't they send recon teams of mages and wyverns to check out and clear out Ginza first?

Because the Commander opted not to and trusted Hardy wasn't sending them off to their doom. Hardy for her part also wanted the Empire humbled. What followed from there was her plan going off the rails.

Also, the wyverns were randomly swooping in so that their riders could spear people, you'd think that they might use some fire for faster crowd dispersion/shock and awe.
I mean, it is not like the Saderans are actually all that humane or anything.
Also, there were lots of wyverns flying around in the first episode, parts of which I rewatched yesterday.
There were precious few wyverns. 3 at the most maybe, I didn't see them breathing fire and most importantly:

Notice something?
As in, that big-ass spear the wyvern pilot is wielding.
Also, he lacks face protection, his hands and part of his chest under the armpits are not covered.

We see very little of the combat actually, however note there were widespread fires throughout the city by the time the JSDF arrived, even in areas the ground troops would not have had time to reach, as well as on the streets. Indicating controlled use of fire to shape the battlefield.

Also depending on source materials and likely the wealth of the Riders, some Wyvern Riders had full suites of armor.

We can nitpick back and forth all year, but there is overwhelming evidence for my position.

If Wyvern to Wyvern combat is common, or if you are riding a beast that shoots fire I'd think that you'd want more substantial protection than that.
The armor looks pretty flimsy and mostly metal, too, not a good idea to wrap yourself into a conductor of heat if you are facing fire-breathing enemies.

It protects them from 90% of the foes they will actually be facing most times. In Wyvern vs Wyvern combat, their best protection is to avoid getting hit in the first place or be a mage and put up a fire ward or hire a mage to give you clothing warded against fire.

Cavalry: Yes, but you'd basically send them to do fast deep strikes behind enemy lines, not send them against machineguns and trenches and barbed wire.
Assault Rifles: Ok, not a native English speaker here, what class of weapon is the Kalashnikov and the Tommy Gun, and that these guys used:

Stormtroopers (Imperial Germany) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You might know that we just call all that stuff avtomat.
That is what I am alluding to.

1. Tell that to the 4th and 12th Australian Light Horse who successfully stormed Turkish trenches.

2. They are called submachine guns and are only really good in close range fights within 200 meters.

And urban warfare is very different from open field warfare, we already covered that.
It is an edge case where infantry has an advantage over airpower, tanks and artillery.
Unless of course, whoever is calling the shots doesn't decide to level the whole city.

17th Century Armies don't have that firepower though.

So why didn't they use more mages during the initial assault on Ginza?

We simply didn't see them in all the chaos and they were wiped out when JSDF arrived. Technological Overmatch can cancel out a lot of things. Said technological overmatch doesn't exist in the 17th century though.

The documentaries I saw on the subject kinda contradict what you are saying, about both.
But I will leave your claims about guns uncontested.
The wheel prohibition was a existed

A reddit post with no primary source cited and ignoring the use of wagons and handcarts by Japanese Peasants or the use of wheeled artillery. Sorry I am going to call bullshit.

The biggest and most continuous civilization on the planet, they had gunpowder for over a thousand years before it came to the west.
And somehow the west managed to massively improve on it, while China stagnated.

China kept pace with the Europeans and even introduced breechlocks before the Europeans did. They were also able to raise massive armies to keep from being colonized while also fighting multiple civil wars in which millions of Chinese died. The stagnation thesis like the Ottoman Decline Thesis doesn't hold up anymore with serious historians.

China's problem was ultimately an internal political problem that resulted in a Roman Style Collapse from within.

Cities and their immediate areas?

Inter and intra-city transportation?

I mean, a cart, even a hand one can have a lot of uses and they were pretty urbanized.

Tenochtitlan had an estimated 200k to 300k people, more than London did or any Spanish City. That takes a lot of administrative bureaucracy to manage plus all the logistical needs. The Aztecs did this without draft animals. Incas were moving massive rocks up mountains as well without draft animals.


Again your arguments are missing points entirely, and show a lack of ability to grasp context. Also the Chemical Warfare Units are poorly protected from fire themselves and not comparable to Wyverns, so this is a disingenuous argument. And poison gas is not a tactic amongst 17th century Armies.

But do you realize that Wiverns and even small dragons have to stop for a moment to launch?
And Polish cavalry won't be stupid enough to wait, as soon as they see what's going on they'll know what's going to happen, because legends about dragons are known all over Europe.
What's more, as I mentioned, Polish cavalry was the best until Poland was dismantled, and such Hussars were trained in all kinds of maneuvers, including the Polish turn, which consisted of suddenly turning the entire formation 180 degrees in relation to the direction of travel.
Of course some will burn, but most will escape.

Wyvern riders also know that, and will time their excursions accordingly. They also will be part of a combined arms team, so the Poles will not have any chance to execute their maneuvers.

Wyverns are simply way too much of an overmatch for the Poles. They're fucked.

 

[Agent23]

No, I have the actual fluff as well as the visual evidence posted earlier.

I have provided my evidence in the form of citing dialog as well as screenshots.
Where is yours?
When I see:
1) Large numbers of wiverns being fielded.
2) Those wyverns turning massive numbers of infantry crispy
Perhaps then I will believe it.

Who don't have a technological overmatch against the Saderans which you keep missing. Also, the Conquistadores relied on Native Mercenaries heavily to conquer, and were helped by smallpox hitting an immunologically naïve population.

We are talking semantics here.
What I was getting at is that the initial Saderan incursion is more of an exploratory raid than a Punic Wars-level existential threat requiring full mobilization.
But again, there is a time gap of months, so perhaps the smaller initial raid was followed by more reinforcements and things escalated.

Because the Commander opted not to and trusted Hardy wasn't sending them off to their doom. Hardy for her part also wanted the Empire humbled. What followed from there was her plan going off the rails.

Act of god...well she still might get her wish, so it is logical to say that every place the gate opens will lead to a Saderan humbling.

We see very little of the combat actually, however note there were widespread fires throughout the city by the time the JSDF arrived, even in areas the ground troops would not have had time to reach, as well as on the streets. Indicating controlled use of fire to shape the battlefield.

Also depending on source materials and likely the wealth of the Riders, some Wyvern Riders had full suites of armor.

We can nitpick back and forth all year, but there is overwhelming evidence for my position.




It protects them from 90% of the foes they will actually be facing most times. In Wyvern vs Wyvern combat, their best protection is to avoid getting hit in the first place or be a mage and put up a fire ward or hire a mage to give you clothing warded against fire.

The evidence is contradictory at best, sorry.
Dialogue about their capabilities as well as specifics related to equipment and tight-packed infantry formations lead me to believe otherwise.

1. Tell that to the 4th and 12th Australian Light Horse who successfully stormed Turkish trenches.

And Banzai charges managed to overwhelm Russian machinegun emplacements during the Russo-Japanese war, that did not make them effective in the grand scheme of things.
Actually some war planners during WWI used exactly those charges as a blueprint for what happened then, with predictably shitty results IIRC.

2. They are called submachine guns and are only really good in close range fights within 200 meters.

Yeah, useful for trench cleaning.

17th Century Armies don't have that firepower though.

No, but your Wyverns are supposed to be that much of a game changer.

 

[Batrix2070]

Wyvern riders also know that, and will time their excursions accordingly. They also will be part of a combined arms team, so the Poles will not have any chance to execute their maneuvers.
Wyverns are simply way too much of an overmatch for the Poles. They're fucked.

Forgive me, but I'll tell you one thing, you're bullshitting.
First of all, your Wyvern riders act more like air cavalry by dropping lances on units below, which rules out hitting cavalry that are too fast to get caught in such a stunt, except maybe Dragoons.
Secondly, firing on the move would be ineffective against formations capable of dispersing quickly, i.e. the Hussars, who had this in the palm of their hand because their charge on the enemy required breaking formation and bringing them together as needed. Yes, a few of them did burn a few Hussars, but they managed to escape before them. Besides, I don't know how you imagine shooting them with fire since these lizards are so small. Their range must be very short, and the Hussars are simply too fast, and before they can shoot they mostly run away from it.

Another thing is that Poland has more than Hussars in the Cavalry field, it has these guys. They are the ones who will most likely suffer the lion's share of losses, although as you can see they have armor on, so according to your logic they are fairly effectively protected from fire, but their horses will burn. Provided, of course, that they get caught beforehand. Which will not be easy.
Here you have a link to all RON formations of that period, of course in Polish because here is a nice division of military formations in contrast to the English but with an automatic translator you should be able to manage.

Another thing is this mythical effectiveness of Saderian combined arms. I'll tell you what, until the development of the radio, every army had trouble commanding in the field, and I haven't seen the Saderians have a magic radio that allowed them to command so effectively.
The other thing is that the doctrine of combined arms is nothing new and everyone has always used it in practice more or less effectively.

So the Holy League is not at all as messed up as you would very much like it to be. Another thing is that the commander-in-chief of its forces at that time was our King and he, according to the old Polish art of warfare, would strive to choose a battlefield where he could win. That is why after the first clashes he will probably order the retreat back behind the river or to the west of the city in order not to be cut off from the supply. This way the Saderians have a free road to Vienna and, thinking that they have defeated the natives, they will gain self-confidence and, after securing Tuln, they will move on the largest city in the area, which they have learned was the capital of the natives, in order to force the surrender of this "Roman Emperor".
And there they would run into the Turks.

Oh, and just a question, is anyone against me opening a thread where I try to write fan fiction in the aforementioned scenario?

 

[ATP]

Forgive me, but I'll tell you one thing, you're bullshitting.
First of all, your Wyvern riders act more like air cavalry by dropping lances on units below, which rules out hitting cavalry that are too fast to get caught in such a stunt, except maybe Dragoons.
Secondly, firing on the move would be ineffective against formations capable of dispersing quickly, i.e. the Hussars, who had this in the palm of their hand because their charge on the enemy required breaking formation and bringing them together as needed. Yes, a few of them did burn a few Hussars, but they managed to escape before them. Besides, I don't know how you imagine shooting them with fire since these lizards are so small. Their range must be very short, and the Hussars are simply too fast, and before they can shoot they mostly run away from it.

Another thing is that Poland has more than Hussars in the Cavalry field, it has these guys. They are the ones who will most likely suffer the lion's share of losses, although as you can see they have armor on, so according to your logic they are fairly effectively protected from fire, but their horses will burn. Provided, of course, that they get caught beforehand. Which will not be easy.
Here you have a link to all RON formations of that period, of course in Polish because here is a nice division of military formations in contrast to the English but with an automatic translator you should be able to manage.

Another thing is this mythical effectiveness of Saderian combined arms. I'll tell you what, until the development of the radio, every army had trouble commanding in the field, and I haven't seen the Saderians have a magic radio that allowed them to command so effectively.
The other thing is that the doctrine of combined arms is nothing new and everyone has always used it in practice more or less effectively.

So the Holy League is not at all as messed up as you would very much like it to be. Another thing is that the commander-in-chief of its forces at that time was our King and he, according to the old Polish art of warfare, would strive to choose a battlefield where he could win. That is why after the first clashes he will probably order the retreat back behind the river or to the west of the city in order not to be cut off from the supply. This way the Saderians have a free road to Vienna and, thinking that they have defeated the natives, they will gain self-confidence and, after securing Tuln, they will move on the largest city in the area, which they have learned was the capital of the natives, in order to force the surrender of this "Roman Emperor".
And there they would run into the Turks.

Oh, and just a question, is anyone against me opening a thread where I try to write fan fiction in the aforementioned scenario?

Do that, i would try not anything like that only becouse i suck as writer.And you are right about winged hussarls - they train to disperse when enemy was schooting and close ranks again just before hitting enemy infrantry.Well,till 18th century,when they becomed funeral calvary.

Which is still canon thanks to their republishing and expansion to the sequels. Also Hypermatter is dual matter-antimatter reactions. The Star Wars universe is a near K3 civilization, Star Trek Federation was a solid K1.5 civilization.



Because they were killed pretty quickly and the rest of the Mages Guild was sore at the Emperor. We never got the opportunity to see Sadera fight a peer competitor. But judging by the armies of its vassals, its clear Wyvern and Mages play a key part in their wars.

Which if you use your fucking brain, would be pretty fucking clear.



The Roman Republic was easily throwing out 80,000 man Legions for Hannibal to smash. We of course are not counting their Allies or Auxiliaries. Also Sadera is more medieval level technology minus gunpowder which they were aware of due to skirmishes with Avion but had not figured out the formula yet. So the numbers are reasonable and they are canon.




If they decide to instead of first securing a base of operations as its approaching Winter in this time frame.



Not necessarily, unless their opponent overmatches their mages and wyverns. Either by having more of them or having sufficient technology (JSDF). Mass infantry will still be needed because until the Mages win the Magic Fights and the Wyverns clear the skies, they need to engage the enemy and pin them. And they need to be able to win the shoving match. Hence the mass formations.



Cavalry played a massive role in the East and Middle East and when they could get an opening, wreaked absolute havoc in the rear. One such raid almost killed Hitler too.

Assault Rifles would not come till WW2.

Trenches are still used today and have evolved in their employment. Every competent Army knows how to entrench and has the tools to do it quickly.

Line formations are still used today to maximize firepower and minimize friendly fire. Soldiers storming a building still pack up tight as they need to cover each others butts once they get in a building as the attacks can come from anywhere.



An assumption on your part not born out by facts. Again we never see Sadera fight a peer foe. We do see their vassals' armies and their corps of Mages and Wyverns before they were annihilated. It makes logical sense the Wyverns and Mages are a vital advantage and Sadera vassalized these nations as it had more Wyverns and Mages to at the very least keep the skies neutral.



Japan never exported firearms to begin with as they were in a bloody civil war for decades. Also the Samurai empathized the way of the spear over the sword which was a sidearm. Also Japan made extensive use of carts, so they certainly did not ban wheels or enforced one. Also Japanese Guns were kept, there were 200 gunsmiths on the Tokugawa Rolls in the Edo Period and in 1840 they began introducing flintlocks and did a mass emergency conversion of all matchlocks to Flintlocks after Perry's visit.



Because it was constantly at war and their production sites getting burnt down.



Still need ground that can support them and roads for long travels.



The Polish Hussars would be firing up and would be out of range to do much. The mere sight of the Wyverns would cause even the Hussars to panic. Then their is the flame breaths the Wyverns bring plus their riders own weapons. Then there is the fact that the Wyverns depending on their age, required no less than .50cal high velocity bullets which the 17th Century had yet to develop.

So no, they get routed and destroyed easily.

About mages and wywerns in Saderan army - if they were really game changer,legions would not use their old tactic,becouse one enemy wywern or mage would roast entire formations.

Wywern who could breath fire have no better range then pistols of winged hussarls - and they would fear firearms as much as polish horses would fear them.
So,no destroing calvary,at least not calvary with pistols or covered by muskets from dragoons units.
Turkish calvary without bows could be destroyed.