Gate opens up at Tulln 9/5/1683

[Agent23]

Not all copied that formation though and it did get defeated several times after Gustavus bought it. And there is still the fact the Saderans will have the air and fortifications with their own artillery set up upon which they can fight from.

So this will turn the fight in their favor quickly and allow them to capture guns and personnel. They also will have seized the arsenal of Tulln already with guns and powder stored in it as well.

Europe and the Ottomans can eventually learn to counter the Wyverns by altering their pike formations and adopting rifling more rapidly and improving bullets to shoot higher and be easier to reload.

But in the meantime, the Saderans will have gained a solid hold in Austria and adopting guns and experimenting on use of magical enhancements to guns.

You are making a bunch of very generous assumptions in favor of the Sedarans,here.
First, that the Sedarans will be able to adapt to new weapons and tactics rapidly enough as to be able to capitalize on what they have captured.
Their army has been in technological stasis for, what, 500 -1000 years?
And they have been top dog for a long time, too.
Frankly, most of their officers aside from Weird Beach Drink princess were quite incompetent and full of themselves, and they were led by inbred, powerhungry nobles.

Hell, whatever their gods have done to inhibit them from improving military tech might still be working.

Second, that they have the numbers to win against the armies of both the Turks and the Holy League.
The Holy league had 70 000 and the Turks 150 000.

Even if they don't decide that the roman-looking heathens are sent by Shaitan and join forces to fight the witches and beasts of hell, one army can bleed them and then leave them for the other one.

I am pretty sure that one Musketeer or Janissary could account for 2, maybe 3 legionaries given the technological and martial advantage the Europeans and Turks had.
Mages were also fairly rare and not that effective, iirc there was this one that threw small rocks at the enemy, and got the M-60 treatment for his troubles.

They had been fighting with near peer competitors most of the time, whileas the Empire, iirc was basically top dog, which means degraded discipline and lack of competitiveness.

Also, I think the wiverns might get spooked by gunpowder as well, given that horses need special training to cope with the noise.

 

[Chiron]

You are making a bunch of very generous assumptions in favor of the Sedarans,here.

Uh no, they are quite reasonable. Tulln would fall quickly as the Gate opens right in their midst with no way for them to react in time.

Also the Wyverns can breathe fire and their riders possess bows, crossbows, and fire pots. That is going to disrupt and route the Poles who would be engaged first as the smaller force.

The HRE force will last longer and make an impression with its guns, but then comes the Wyverns and they route.

 

[Agent23]

Uh no, they are quite reasonable. Tulln would fall quickly as the Gate opens right in their midst with no way for them to react in time.

Also the Wyverns can breathe fire and their riders possess bows, crossbows, and fire pots. That is going to disrupt and route the Poles who would be engaged first as the smaller force.

The HRE force will last longer and make an impression with its guns, but then comes the Wyverns and they route.

I honestly don't recall the Sedaran flying beasties being that impressive or that numerous.

Also,as I said, I doubt that the Sedarans will have anything remotely like competent command.

 

[ATP]

Centurion Biggius Dickius: "Why are those armored birdmen that can not even fly but must ride horses positioning wheeled cylinders before us, is it a sign of surrender."

Boom.

Tightly packed ranks of Saderans get turned into paste by Chain shot - Wikipedia and possibly bar shot and primitive cartridge shots.

If anything, IMHO, cartridge shot will be developed faster.

Also, we have always called them The Russians, even if it was the Kievan Rus, Novogorod, or Moskovi.

Artillery do not use chain schoot on land.So,it would be used - but after Saderans beat all gathered armies there and take Vienna

Muskets had lesser range and ROF then roman bows,and both european and musketeers and turkish infrantry do not used armour.Which mean,that they would be decimated before they have chance to fire.

And,muskets was slow to reload - they would have time for 2 salvos before legions start massacring them in case of turkish infrantry/sabers and no armours against schield,armour,gladius and helmet - quess who win/ or fight pikeman in case of western infrantry.

My quess - they would win decisively in 1683,and keep expanding for few yeears,till coalition of all countries finally manage to stop them.
Stop,not defeat and take Sadera - that would not happen till at least 1800.
Changed History - Poland would survive ,becouse nobody could disband army like in OTL with Saderans nearby,and all countries at least till 1800 would fight saderans,not themselves.

Kievan russ was vikings,who get wiped out by mongols,Nowogrod was their cousins genocided by tsar Ivan the coward,and moscow is what survived till our times and have nothing to do with both Kiev and Novogrod.Becouse they are mix of mongols and their slavic slaves,not vikings.

 

[Agent23]

Artillery do not use chain schoot on land.So,it would be used - but after Saderans beat all gathered armies there and take Vienna

Muskets had lesser range and ROF then roman bows,and both european and musketeers and turkish infrantry do not used armour.Which mean,that they would be decimated before they have chance to fire.

And,muskets was slow to reload - they would have time for 2 salvos before legions start massacring them in case of turkish infrantry/sabers and no armours against schield,armour,gladius and helmet - quess who win/ or fight pikeman in case of western infrantry.

Yeah, archers, particularly ones armed with longbows, were more accurate and deadly than most pre-early XX century handweapons IIRC.

But a bowman needs extensive training and upper body strength, whileas muskets and other firearms were comparably easier to use.

Shooty sticks had one more advantage in the form that they could mount bayonets or be turned into clubs easily.

 

[Chiron]

Yeah, archers, particularly ones armed with longbows, were more accurate and deadly than most pre-early XX century handweapons IIRC.

But a bowman needs extensive training and upper body strength, whileas muskets and other firearms were comparably easier to use.

Shooty sticks had one more advantage in the form that they could mount bayonets or be turned into clubs easily.

Bayonets are not in widespread use at this time and will take another 30 years to be standard.

And the first impressions the Saderans have from defeating the joint Polish and Habsburg Force is to bring in Prince Zorsal's pikemen, integrate the captured guns, and combine them with their Wyverns to create a force the other powers will have immense difficulty defeating till they can deploy rifles in widespread use and bribe Wyvern Riders to their cause with breeding pairs.

As it stands, the 17th century armies are not beyond their comprehension or means to defeat, and the Wyverns enable them to route cavalry units, take out cannons, then pin the Infantry and surround them to be annihilated. It also enables them to have far better intel, raid supply lines, and gain a decisive operational advantage and even peel off various vassals from the Habsburgs and Ottomans.

As their victories grow, so does their ability to further adopt gunpowder weaponry and attract new recruits and mercenaries to their banners.

In fact they have a near certain chance of overrunning Europe, setting up Imperial Colonies and vassalizing smaller powers. In addition, their importing of demi-human slaves and migrations of Dwarf, Centaur, Elvish, and Orcish Mercenaries will also begin altering the demography of the Afro-Eurasian Continent.

Hell, Hungary, Moldova, and Transylvania will likely be first to say, "Hey, keep us on our thrones, and we will give you X in tribute."

 

[Agent23]

Bayonets are not in widespread use at this time and will take another 30 years to be standard.

And the first impressions the Saderans have from defeating the joint Polish and Habsburg Force is to bring in Prince Zorsal's pikemen, integrate the captured guns, and combine them with their Wyverns to create a force the other powers will have immense difficulty defeating till they can deploy rifles in widespread use and bribe Wyvern Riders to their cause with breeding pairs.

As it stands, the 17th century armies are not beyond their comprehension or means to defeat, and the Wyverns enable them to route cavalry units, take out cannons, then pin the Infantry and surround them to be annihilated. It also enables them to have far better intel, raid supply lines, and gain a decisive operational advantage and even peel off various vassals from the Habsburgs and Ottomans.

As their victories grow, so does their ability to further adopt gunpowder weaponry and attract new recruits and mercenaries to their banners.

In fact they have a near certain chance of overrunning Europe, setting up Imperial Colonies and vassalizing smaller powers. In addition, their importing of demi-human slaves and migrations of Dwarf, Centaur, Elvish, and Orcish Mercenaries will also begin altering the demography of the Afro-Eurasian Continent.

Hell, Hungary, Moldova, and Transylvania will likely be first to say, "Hey, keep us on our thrones, and we will give you X in tribute."

Stick gun on non pointy but shooty stick and make it a pointy and shooty stick is kinda-sorta a logical conclusion, however you are taking my little exchange with ATP out of context, I was merely listing the benefits of firearms vs. bows and arrows.

The use of the arquebus/musket/what have you as a club though, was mentioned in a documentary on the English civil war IIRC, and that is yet another area where Muskets are superior to bows and crossbows of any kind where a large army is concerned.

Now, back to your statement about wiverns and magic and what it should do to the overall structure of the Sedaran line of battle.

If wiverns were as common and deadly as you claim then I don't think the sedarns would keep their troops in phalanx-like formations.

Clustered that closely and wearing as much heavy armor and lugging around large roman shields they'd be sitting ducks for mages and Wivern breakthrough attacks.

Sorry, but a more dispersed formation of infantry that comes in and mops up after a mix of cavalry and wiverns, with perhaps some mounted mages hits the enemy sounds far more logical if the amount of crowd pleasing you attribute to wiverns is possible.

What you describe is a situation where we'd literally have the equivalent of close in air support in the form of the wiverns, with no anti air to cover the infantry.

This would have rendered the standard roman column highly inadvisable IMHO and turned Sedaran warfare into essentially air war.

This IMHO leads me to believe that the strategic utility of Wivern units is limited to below that of 17th century canons.

 

[Chiron]

Now, back to your statement about wiverns and magic and what it should do to the overall structure of the Sedaran line of battle.

If wiverns were as common and deadly as you claim then I don't think the sedarns would keep their troops in phalanx-like formations.

Clustered that closely and wearing as much heavy armor and lugging around large roman shields they'd be sitting ducks for mages and Wivern breakthrough attacks.

Sorry, but a more dispersed formation of infantry that comes in and mops up after a mix of cavalry and wiverns, with perhaps some mounted mages hits the enemy sounds far more logical if the amount of crowd pleasing you attribute to wiverns is possible.

What you describe is a situation where we'd literally have the equivalent of close in air support in the form of the wiverns, with no anti air to cover the infantry.

This would have rendered the standard roman column highly inadvisable IMHO and turned Sedaran warfare into essentially air war.

This IMHO leads me to believe that the strategic utility of Wivern units is limited to below that of 17th century canons.

Close formations are still used today as mass is a thing still, and if you want to affect a breakthrough you have to mass up to breakthrough a line.

Wyverns don't change that, nor did Aircraft entering warfare on Earth change the principles of mass, also Saderan's enemies also have Wyverns as do their vassals. So the Saderans fight in Air Parity on their own world till they push the enemy aerial forces back.

Earths Armies at this time do not have the means or tactics to fight back against Wyverns and if they insist on open field decisive battles, they will simply lose faster.

That is the operational reality.

 

[Agent23]

Close formations are still used today as mass is a thing still, and if you want to affect a breakthrough you have to mass up to breakthrough a line.

Wyverns don't change that, nor did Aircraft entering warfare on Earth change the principles of mass, also Saderan's enemies also have Wyverns as do their vassals. So the Saderans fight in Air Parity on their own world till they push the enemy aerial forces back.

Earths Armies at this time do not have the means or tactics to fight back against Wyverns and if they insist on open field decisive battles, they will simply lose faster.

That is the operational reality.

The operational reality would be a single wivern turning a column of infantry into over-fied chips if we go by your overly-generous estimates.

Logic would dictate that Wiverns would be the first thing going through the gate, and en mass, and I don't think that happened in Ginza, nor do I recall piles of charred skeletons.

The invasion was primarily comprised of footsoldiers and riders, and a few other Earthbound beasties.

If they are the primary force multiplier as well as the eyes and ears of the Sedaran force, then don't you think that an initial aerial blitzkrieg would have been the more logical angle of attack?

Also, I think that the Sedarans had control over most of Falmart, with the various barbarian chieftains being mostly subjugated, and them having beaten some kingdom of bunnygirls that was a major source of slaves recently.

Evidence and logic suggest that the stopping power of your average wivern detachment should not be much greater than that of 17th century canons.

Aircraft, if they had been invented in the 17th century, and somehow been equipped with grenade launchers and machine guns would have changed the formations.

The first widespread use of aircraft that could strafe happened in WWI, when machineguns and massed rapid firing artillery and chemical warfare had already reduced people to trench fighting.

A WWI aircraft for example, would have made mince meat out of any roman turtle.

 

[Chiron]

The operational reality would be a single wivern turning a column of infantry into over-fied chips if we go by your overly-generous estimates.

Logic would dictate that Wiverns would be the first thing going through the gate, and en mass, and I don't think that happened in Ginza, nor do I recall piles of charred skeletons.

The invasion was primarily comprised of footsoldiers and riders, and a few other Earthbound beasties.

If they are the primary force multiplier as well as the eyes and ears of the Sedaran force, then don't you think that an initial aerial blitzkrieg would have been the more logical angle of attack?

Also, I think that the Sedarans had control over most of Falmart, with the various barbarian chieftains being mostly subjugated, and them having beaten some kingdom of bunnygirls that was a major source of slaves recently.

Evidence and logic suggest that the stopping power of your average wivern detachment should not be much greater than that of 17th century canons.

Which if said column didn't disperse would indeed happen, but by dispersing the column, the Wyvern has already done its job and the formation it is supporting can complete that column's destruction by keeping its own formation intact to achieve tactical superiority upon contact.

This is a problem you don't seem to realize.

Its the same issue I see in debates over best MGs and other such things. Sure, soldiers can lie down and crawl under MG fire, but that is what the MG is supposed to force them to do, it slows their advance, allows the riflemen to pick them off and the Lt to call in mortars and arty to throw the attack back. The role of the tank is to absorb the MG fire from the Infantry and smash the MGs in the process. And so on in a complete synergistic fashion.

Back to how Wyverns work in the Saderan Military doctrine:

1. Aerial Reconnaissance and Message Running.

2. Aerial Resupply of besieged areas and remote outposts.

3. Raiding and disruption of LOCs.

3. Interception and protection against and of the above.

4. Gaining aerial dominance in field battles and sieges to protect their own troops and then shape the battlefield to the commander's desire by disrupting the enemy's formations and inducing a route.

Essentially what our aircraft do today.

It is also what the Wyverns were doing in Ginza till the Japanese Military came in and blasted them out of the sky.

Hell, if in alternative scenario, the JSDF didn't exist, police only had small arms if any, and the nation didn't have a foreign military presence and the rest of the world was like meh... Not my problem, I'll cut a deal with whoever when its all done. Those Wyverns would have been instrumental in forcing the Imperial Palace, taking skyscrapers, and breaking up the riot police and firefighters, plus any Sengoku Larpers, and Yakuza thugs forming resistance pockets. Which would have been amusing to watch and shown to the rest of the world why you should speak softly and be armed to the teeth. Never know when a fantasy medieval army will show up.

Back back to the 17th Century.

Since enemy flyers are not a concern, Earth horses are not used to Wyverns, and many troops would be shocked to see them, an operational shock is quite likely to cause first the Poles to be routed and their King killed or captured. Followed by the Habsburgs to be routed after a several days skirmishing because Saderan Cavalry would be spooked by cannon fire and the need to be on the defensive till the Poles are handled.

But once that is done, the Saderans will use the Wyverns to shape the battlefield to their designs and force a route.

 

[Agent23]

Which if said column didn't disperse would indeed happen, but by dispersing the column, the Wyvern has already done its job and the formation it is supporting can complete that column's destruction by keeping its own formation intact to achieve tactical superiority upon contact.

Using columns of infantry against a highly mobile, highly maneuverable opponent you can not hit is pointless, might as well find a deep pit and march them into it for all the good they will do.

What, are you telling me you'd put an army into tight square formations when an enemy has the potential to just strafe them from above and burn them?

That is a an utterly pointless waste of resources and time.

Tight, heavily armored formations with no ground-based anti-wivern weapons would be sitting ducks, they would only be effective if and only if your wiverns are able to dominate the skies fully, since any single attack by a wivern would mission kill the particular column.

The capabilities you describe make the wiverns the spearpoint of the army, with infantry being rendered into glorified guards and occupation forces, and a speed break for the more mobile horse units, mages and the wiverns themselves.

Since they exist in the wild on Falmart that means that they probably don't need any special land-based facilities and can forage for food.

So what we have in effect is an airborne version of the Mongolian conquests that can dish out 10x the damage upon infantry units that do not have a way to counter-attack.

That would logically render mass, compact formations of tightly packed and heavily armored infantry pretty much pointless.

Obviously these units were retained, ergo there was some type of use for them.
Onviously they stayed in very close proximity, so the damage that the wiverns could do was very, very limited.

If the wiverns were as capable as you describe them to be then the Sedarans could get rid of most of their frontline troops and increase the number of wiverns they have, since
a) They would be the only effective counter against infantry.
b) There is zero sense in massing large units together and letting them get roasted, with all that expensive armor, weapons and training being turned to scrap.

As to your scenario of the Sedarans attacking a disarmed, neutral Japan, well, you are forgetting their penchant for banzai charges and kamikaze attacks.

What would win, a flying lizard, or any form of modern day passenger jet or trainer aircraft, or crop duster ramming it at full speed.

Similarly, heavy trucks with some plates of steel added for protection and other machinery could just be used to turn the legions into so much roadkill.

Also, do you actually think that a country with such a massive consumer base and industrial base such as Japan would just be left to fall to some Roman larpers?

 

[Chiron]

Using columns of infantry against a highly mobile, highly maneuverable opponent you can not hit is pointless, might as well find a deep pit and march them into it for all the good they will do.

What, are you telling me you'd put an army into tight square formations when an enemy has the potential to just strafe them from above and burn them?

That is a an utterly pointless waste of resources and time.

Tight, heavily armored formations with no ground-based anti-wivern weapons would be sitting ducks, they would only be effective if and only if your wiverns are able to dominate the skies fully, since any single attack by a wivern would mission kill the particular column.

The capabilities you describe make the wiverns the spearpoint of the army, with infantry being rendered into glorified guards and occupation forces, and a speed break for the more mobile horse units, mages and the wiverns themselves.

Since they exist in the wild on Falmart that means that they probably don't need any special land-based facilities and can forage for food.

So what we have in effect is an airborne version of the Mongolian conquests that can dish out 10x the damage upon infantry units that do not have a way to counter-attack.

That would logically render mass, compact formations of tightly packed and heavily armored infantry pretty much pointless.

Obviously these units were retained, ergo there was some type of use for them.
Onviously they stayed in very close proximity, so the damage that the wiverns could do was very, very limited.

If the wiverns were as capable as you describe them to be then the Sedarans could get rid of most of their frontline troops and increase the number of wiverns they have, since
a) They would be the only effective counter against infantry.
b) There is zero sense in massing large units together and letting them get roasted, with all that expensive armor, weapons and training being turned to scrap.

As to your scenario of the Sedarans attacking a disarmed, neutral Japan, well, you are forgetting their penchant for banzai charges and kamikaze attacks.

What would win, a flying lizard, or any form of modern day passenger jet or trainer aircraft, or crop duster ramming it at full speed.

Similarly, heavy trucks with some plates of steel added for protection and other machinery could just be used to turn the legions into so much roadkill.

Also, do you actually think that a country with such a massive consumer base and industrial base such as Japan would just be left to fall to some Roman larpers?

That is a complete misreading of the situation. The point I am making is all these units work together to maintain dominance of the battlefield. None is working alone and all are doing their job in coordination, from the Wyverns screening the army and disrupting formations, the disciplined infantry exploiting the openings in the enemy formation to rupture the line and force a retreat, to the cavalry clearing the wings and cutting off escape to induce surrenders.

Neither is winning on their own and not expected to, but together they are a difficult combination to defeat.

Therein is how the Saderans win at Tulln and Vienna and establish a firm foothold.

Back to the disarmed Japan scenario, it was a thought experiment of what the on-the-ground Saderan Commanders would be thinking as they got their men under control from the initial charge.

Of course using the vehicles available to them to disrupt the Saderan formations would be done, especially firetrucks, but, they are also limited to the roads, they are up against disciplined troops who aren't going to panic and had quicklime and dust thrown in their faces and thus no strangers to watery eyes. So the shock effect won't be as great, and the Riot Police did suffer causalities and if not for the JSDF immediately supporting them, they probably would have been repulsed in the shoving match in cannon.

Kamikaze a plane into a Wyvern. Ok, didn't work out so well historically and ignoring the Wyverns have smaller turn radius than aircraft do, hence helicopters and stand off weapons used to take them out as dogfighting with jets would not have worked as they are too fast and had too wide of a turning radius.

Also for riot cops. When you get down to it, a Riot Cop is a less trained and poorer fighter than a Roman Legionary in a shoving match. The Riot Cop is trained to fight a mob of undisciplined, unarmored, civilians who quickly fall back from the intimidation factor and lack the means to break the Riot Cops line with the few foolhardy ones knocked to the ground with non-lethal tools. A Legionnaire is a discipled soldier trained to close in and kill and has the training and tools to break a Riot Line. Better to use regular patrol officers with sidearms, shooting to kill ,or better yet SAT teams to deal with a Roman Formation like that.

But enough, we are diverging way off.

Believe as you will.

 

[Agent23]

Believe as you will.

I believe that a roman legion, formed up in the traditional turtle/square/column will not do well against airborne flamethrowers that can land anywhere and do not need refueling or special maintenance facilities.

This is my main, thesis, which comes in response to your thesis that somehow extremely tightly-packed infantry is a good idea on a battlefield where the type of airborne flamethrower you describe exists.

Sorry, but you have not provided a real proof that your thesis is the case.

Roman-style tight columns gave way to line infantry and less heavily armored cavalry when firearms were introduced.
The shields would have slowed down down and the tight formation would have made them sitting targets for canons, with the enemy infantry spreading out and peppering them with bullets.

The line formation gave them more survivability and more DPS targeted at the enemy lines.

This changed again when machine guns and even better artillery and rifles were introduced, necessitating trenches and barbed wire, and landmines and gas masks and mobile and fixed Anti air.

Ultimately tanks, aircraft and motorized infantry broke the new paradigm and made warfare mobile again.

the situation with roman infantry vis-a-vis your idea of the wiverns is the same as that of entrenched infantry vs. tanks and aircraft.

Or line infantry vs. machineguns and rapid fire long range artillery.

The infantry in the roman formation is a sitting duck and should be spread out in smaller, more independent squads so it is not a sitting duck, then it should be used in a purely support role and as garrison troops.

Forming turtles and big ass squares is pointless.

If army a and army b form up, but army a still has more wiverns than army be those wiverns can decimate the army b infantry turtles, in an open field and without the ability to counteract airborne attacks.

A more spread out, engulfing pattern of troop disposition to pincer and mop up enemy formations after wivern raids would be the better choice, not turtles.

It is pointless and you'd be using de facto unarmed infantry against the equivalent of flying tanks.

The only situations where classic roman combat formations and gear would work is one where the infantry has a real counter to the wiverns if they gain air superiority, or one where the wiverns are not that much of a threat to the infantry.

In the case where there are counters, e.g. more wiverns as I do not recall the Sedarans having fantasy manpads or RPGs you can just forgo the majority of the heavy tight armored meatsack formations and buy more wiverns, take out the enemy's air superiority first, then go in with wiverns against their massed, slow formations, barbecue them, and have small detachments mop up and play garrison duty.

Usable wiverns = mongols on steroids.

 

[Chiron]

I believe that a roman legion, formed up in the traditional turtle/square/column will not do well against airborne flamethrowers that can land anywhere and do not need refueling or special maintenance facilities.

Well no shit. Its why they are protected by their own Wyverns to prevent that plus all the missile and cavalry forces supporting them in addition to mages.

Its the same thing with 17th century warfare.

Yeah a Terico vulnerable to artillery. Its a no-shit-Sherlock statement, its why the Terico's own supporting artillery works to suppress the enemy's artillery and their cavalry support moves to push the enemy's cavalry off so that the Terico can move forward.

If all works out, the enemy's artillery is knocked out and thus their supporting artillery can then fire on the enemy troops, and if their cavalry wins the fight against the enemy cavalry and swings back in support, then they got the enemy pinned, their formation disrupted, and surrenders come in.

This is what you aren't fucking getting. A Saderan knows the strengths and weaknesses of his units and works to ensure they operate synergistically in support of each other, its how they are the dominant empire on their world. Having adapted Wyverns into their warfare doctrines over the centuries they been in power.

The Ottomans, Habsburgs, and Polish Forces have no counter to Wyverns and no means in the immediate future to develop them. Those with overseas colonies in the New World are going to relocate there and figure out a way to effectively combat Wyverns or get their hands on them to make their own corps of them to fight back.

Those who don't are going to fall or accept vassalage and bide their time.

 

[Agent23]

This is what you aren't fucking getting. A Saderan knows the strengths and weaknesses of his units and works to ensure they operate synergistically in support of each other, its how they are the dominant empire on their world. Having adapted Wyverns into their warfare doctrines over the centuries they been in power.

I am getting that the Sadernas are grouping themselves in formations that would be sitting ducks if they got strafed, they don't even need to lose a sizable amount of their air cover to get a column burned, at least according to your excessively generous guesstimations as to the power of wiverns.
Infantry excessively burdened with armor and packed together like sardines does not fit with your assumptions regarding the damage and numbers of wiverns.
Infantry in the middle ages was extremely susceptible to heavy cavalry attacks and only a massive numeric advantage combined with javelin throwers, slingers and archers screening them could give them a chance.

Well, in this case the Wivern is basically a horse on steroids with the infantry having no real counter against it, aside from another horse.
As such infantry, particular the massive numbers of tightly packed infantry the Sedarans seem to favor becomes more of a liability than an asset.
Hell, regular Roman infantry against Persian horse archers and cataphracts was a disaster for the Romans in an open field, and the wiverns are ten times worse, since they are by your claims faster and deadlier and do not depend on terrain.

Firepower claims for which you haven't really provided a citation, by the way.
Some visual evidence from the anime might be nice and all or a quote from the books.

 

[Chiron]

I am getting that the Sadernas are grouping themselves in formations that would be sitting ducks if they got strafed, they don't even need to lose a sizable amount of their air cover to get a column burned, at least according to your excessively generous guesstimations as to the power of wiverns.
Infantry excessively burdened with armor and packed together like sardines does not fit with your assumptions regarding the damage and numbers of wiverns.
Infantry in the middle ages was extremely susceptible to heavy cavalry attacks and only a massive numeric advantage combined with javelin throwers, slingers and archers screening them could give them a chance.

Well, in this case the Wivern is basically a horse on steroids with the infantry having no real counter against it, aside from another horse.
As such infantry, particular the massive numbers of tightly packed infantry the Sedarans seem to favor becomes more of a liability than an asset.
Hell, regular Roman infantry against Persian horse archers and cataphracts was a disaster for the Romans in an open field, and the wiverns are ten times worse, since they are by your claims faster and deadlier and do not depend on terrain.

Firepower claims for which you haven't really provided a citation, by the way.
Some visual evidence from the anime might be nice and all or a quote from the books.

From the Anime

We see they can breathe fire.

Also you are again utterly wrong on the tactical implications. A single strafing run isn't going to wreck a well ordered formation because a handful got through, because you know, the missile troops and mages supporting the infantry to force it to abort the attack and the ability of disciplined troops to adjust formations in battle, which they train for. It takes a well-timed applied pressure to induce an operational shock that will route a formation. And given the bestiary of Falmart, their soldiers will be trained in how to respond to air attacks in which a Tetsudo formation with specially designed shields is a valid defense and their armor and under clothing would protect them from flames that is only moments.

Sustained fire is a different matter, but if that's the case the Saderan Army has already lost the air and most likely the battle.

And you're wrong about the Persian vs Rome matchups as well. The Roman Infantry routinely beat and destroyed Cataphracts in open field battles when not led by morons who brought adequate support troops and cavalry.

As it is the 17th century armies of this era do not have tactical counters to Wyverns, that will take them time to work out and train for, time the Saderans will put to good use.

 

[ATP]

Yeah, archers, particularly ones armed with longbows, were more accurate and deadly than most pre-early XX century handweapons IIRC.

But a bowman needs extensive training and upper body strength, whileas muskets and other firearms were comparably easier to use.

Shooty sticks had one more advantage in the form that they could mount bayonets or be turned into clubs easily.

All true - but,saderans arleady have that archers,and could get more.Which mean,that most of musketeers and turkish infrantry would die before they have chance to fire.
Which mean winning battles for Saderan.

@Chiron - i think,that you are wrong about wyverns,and @Agent23 is right.
If they really was that effective,that nobody would use big infrantry formation or heavy calvary anymore,becouse few wywerns could destroy that - and ,even with your own wywerns,you could not defend entire army all times.

But,thanks to wyverns used for recon,Saderans would knew where enemy is before he knew where they are,so they would choose when to fight.That,archers,and monsters would let them keep winning for few years,till european allaince of all sides including Turkey and Moscow would finally stop them.
But,they would get part of Austria,Hungary,Silesia...what more?

 

[Agent23]

From the Anime

First, fix your link:

We see they can breathe fire.

Produces fire, so decimates infantry utterly is a bit of a long stretch, IMHO.

Sorry, but you need to do better than that, like showing that that fire can do actual damage at actual decent range.

Also you are again utterly wrong on the tactical implications. A single strafing run isn't going to wreck a well ordered formation because a handful got through, because you know, the missile troops and mages supporting the infantry to force it to abort the attack and the ability of disciplined troops to adjust formations in battle, which they train for. It takes a well-timed applied pressure to induce an operational shock that will route a formation. And given the bestiary of Falmart, their soldiers will be trained in how to respond to air attacks in which a Tetsudo formation with specially designed shields is a valid defense and their armor and under clothing would protect them from flames that is only moments.

I am certain that metal armor and those silly metal helmets are a big asset against fire.
I certainly didn't see mythrial-like armor and shields on the Sedarans, so I'd think that they were about as well equipped as your average Roman.
But are you forgetting one important thing?

17th century armies used a lot of canons, muskets, mortars, and grenades.
I think that the shock and awe of a canon ball slamming through your formation and turning the people next to you into bloody pulp would kinda-sorta be the same as a dragon burning a few of the front rank.
We are talking about line infantry that was subject to pistol wielding cavalry charges, canon bombardment, early versions of grapeshot and occasionally chain shot and black powder grenades.
Line infantry warfare with canon was brutal, and I think the veterans of such battles were far less squeamish than you apparently believe them to be.


Constant barrage of canonfire + rows upon rows of Muskets > a few flying lizards.
At least where shock and awe are concerned.
And inb4 you say that this covers a differnet time period, well I am just adding it as an example of the terror line infantry must have experienced.

Also, you are forgetting one other, important thing.

Princess beach cocktail and her forces rode horses, they did not ride wiverns.

If the Wivern is the ultimate weapon in this conflict and all doctrine and hierarchy is built around it then I'd think that the royal commanders would be making use of them themselves.

A medieval army had the top social strata using the best weapon, that being heavy armor and horses, whileas the peasantry was relegated to play foot soldier.
You certainly didn't see Gustavus Adolphus walking on foot with a pike.

Also, this is in essence a medieval army, I doubt that they can coordinate all that well, you need radios for a proper, effective combined arms IMHO, so I think you are over-exaggerating the efficiency of the cooperation between Wiverns and the rest of the army.
I mean, a large army from the roman times up to modernity was usually broken up into several, pretty autonomous detachments, so the level of coordination you envision is IMHO extremely hard to achieve.
Frankly, communicating with the wivern riders sounds nigh impossible and they would have to be 100% autonomous.

Sustained fire is a different matter, but if that's the case the Saderan Army has already lost the air and most likely the battle.

And you're wrong about the Persian vs Rome matchups as well. The Roman Infantry routinely beat and destroyed Cataphracts in open field battles when not led by morons who brought adequate support troops and cavalry.

As it is the 17th century armies of this era do not have tactical counters to Wyverns, that will take them time to work out and train for, time the Saderans will put to good use.

When they had terrain advantage and when facing cataracts only, maybe they got a few victories.
The trick is to soften them up with light mounted archers, then mop up with heavy cavalry.

And from what I have read on the subject the Persians had an overwhelming advantage on flat terrain, with the legions being able to win only when they had a hilly area to contest.

 

[ATP]

You are right,princess Pina would use wywern if they were that effective,not horses.
But - wywerns could just land near commanders and told when enemy is,so as recon they would be great.And in defeating calvary,horses are easy to frightened by something new.
Infrantry would be massacred by archers,which saderans arleady have,and monsters.
So,till european start using grapeshot/which they do not use in 1683/ and have calvary which do not run from wywerns,they would be beaten.

I think,that saderans would take more in germany and balkans before they got stopped.
Mages and emihumans - i think,that european would start using them,just like saderans would use guns.About 1750 european battlefield would have field artillery,infrantry,calvary,mages and demihumans./rabbits would love fighting for anybody who kill saderans,and turks&nobles would love to have new mistress/

 

[Agent23]

All true - but,saderans arleady have that archers,and could get more.Which mean,that most of musketeers and turkish infrantry would die before they have chance to fire.
Which mean winning battles for Saderan.

@Chiron - i think,that you are wrong about wyverns,and @Agent23 is right.
If they really was that effective,that nobody would use big infrantry formation or heavy calvary anymore,becouse few wywerns could destroy that - and ,even with your own wywerns,you could not defend entire army all times.

But,thanks to wyverns used for recon,Saderans would knew where enemy is before he knew where they are,so they would choose when to fight.That,archers,and monsters would let them keep winning for few years,till european allaince of all sides including Turkey and Moscow would finally stop them.
But,they would get part of Austria,Hungary,Silesia...what more?

Another thing we haven't really discussed are the numbers.

At its height the Roman empire's legions numbered about 150 000 with lots of auxiliaries.

Holder's 2003 study broadly affirms these figures, finding that the Roman army contained about 380,000 soldiers: 154,000 legionaries and 223,000 auxiliaries (excluding the forces in Rome, the fleets of Ravenna, Misenum, and smaller naval deployments on the Rhine, Danube, Mediterranean coast, Black Sea coast and English Channel):

The holy league and the Turks had just a bit over 200 thousand, but those are the soldiers for just one campaign.
With the Sedarnas having their own internal problems and potential rebellions to quell, I doubt they'd ever commit the bulk of their military to this expedition.

Roman agriculture was also far less effective than 17th century agriculture, but here comes the problem of magic stuff, weird plants and disparities between civilian and military tech in Falmart.

Frankly the fact that they are still keeping slaves for example,might mean that their agricultural production might be less effective, as lack of manpower forced medieval Europe to develop wind and water mills.
I do not recall seeing any mills there.

You are right,princess Pina would use wywern if they were that effective,not horses.
But - wywerns could just land near commanders and told when enemy is,so as recon they would be great.And in defeating calvary,horses are easy to frightened by something new.
Infrantry would be massacred by archers,which saderans arleady have,and monsters.
So,till european start using grapeshot/which they do not use in 1683/ and have calvary which do not run from wywerns,they would be beaten.

I think,that saderans would take more in germany and balkans before they got stopped.
Mages and emihumans - i think,that european would start using them,just like saderans would use guns.About 1750 european battlefield would have field artillery,infrantry,calvary,mages and demihumans./rabbits would love fighting for anybody who kill saderans,and turks&nobles would love to have new mistress/

Exactly, the Chiron Wiverns would be the weapon around which all doctrine and formations are formed, much like tanks, mobile artillery and aircraft are the centerpiece of our modern war efforts, with motorized infantry supporting them and having to adapt to their operational requirements.
As in, to develop anti-tank weapons and move around in APCs and IFVs.

Modern day infantry skulks in the woods and garrisons buildings, with detachments escorting the tanks so as to counter dug in urban and forest infantry with anti-tank weapons.
It does not form up and try to face tanks head-on.