Future War with (Red) China Hypotheticals/Theorycrafting

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Only problem....well biggest problem for CCP is in any conflict over 6 months is that it will cause the US to get involved along with all of Taiwan's other allies like Japan, Philippines, etc...

China's navy and coastal facilities would likely be targeted by all these parties.

In addition, it wouldn't surprise me if India made moves to help 'liberate' Tibet.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The fact that any of those would be attacks on Taiwan which would get the US invovled.
Jeager, you arnt the first to think of this.
They would most likely go for a decapiting strike. Because if they arnt confident they can take any of the near islands within 6 months, they are basically screwed.
Of they can st least prevent main Taiwanese forces coming from the mainland to support the islands they stand a chance.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Or, if Taiwanese or American resistance is stronger than expected and Chinese power weaker, China can walk back the crisis without having actually risked all that much.
From a military perspective, your analysis makes reasonable sense, however, it's excluding two major considerations:

1. Taiwan may try, and almost certainly has already prepared, a 'cause disproportionate damage while accepting loss of the islands' strategy. Prepared minefields, drone bombs, some deep bunkers, and ready evacuation plans, allowing the Taiwanese to bloody the nose of a landing force before retreating swiftly. If they're willing to do it, some cheap tube artillery set up to counter-shell before running.

With the Wuciou island in particular, there isn't really any other reasonable defensive plan, and critically, China is extremely unlikely to be able to conceal a military build-up for invasion. Wuciou is small enough that maybe a small task force could be stealthily gathered for that, but either of the larger island sets, it's not practical, so Taiwan would certainly see the invasion coming.


2. The worst-case scenario for the CCP/PLA isn't direct US military involvement, it's interdiction of trade. The PLAN has effectively no ability to resist the USN out on the high seas, and China's economy is both dependent on exports for what sectors aren't Ponzi schemes, and dependent upon imports to feed itself. If the USA declares 'All maritime trade to and from China is hereby interdicted until they retreat from Taiwanese soil,' not only will a lot of regional allies and frenemies enthusiastically back the declaration, there's jack-all the Chinese can do to overturn that declaration.

While the loss of export markets would be hard on some places like Australia, many friends would be made by the interdiction of and sinking of the Chinese pirate fishing fleets. Food and energy shortages in China would start within weeks, and become acute within months. They can bring in some stuff from their Belt-and-Road, but that hasn't worked anywhere near as well it was supposed to, and it was supposed to replace maybe a quarter of maritime trade volume.

China would probably have 3-6 months before economic collapse, and that's optimistic. If one of their many fracture points shattered as a result of naval interdiction, you could see cascade economic failures a lot faster than that, and if a sizable chunk of the military is already deployed fighting Taiwan, who knows what kinds of insurrection might happen?

Further, since naval traffic to and from China primarily goes through the territorial waters of nations they've pissed off, such as the Straits of Malacca, which are extremely easy to close, and China can't force to open without declaring war on additional nations. If China wants to try to use the small portion of the PLAN capable of long-range blue-water deployment to send merchant shipping convoys around through open waters, they pretty much have to go all the way around Australia, adding thousands of miles and weeks to the journey. It's logistically impractical, and certainly can't handle even a fraction of the shipping volume currently going in and out of China.


On the whole, between China's incredibly shitty diplomacy with literally everyone in the world, and how economically exposed they are, their most practical option is basically to try what the Russians tried, and hope they actually succeed. Try to start and then win the war before western governments manage to respond coherently, so it's functionally presented as a fait accompli. 'We already have Taiwan, what are you going to do about it?'

They're even less likely to succeed than the Russians were, to be frank. It's not impossible, and it's not impossible that they'd try a more gradual conflict process like you're proposing, but given how politicized and inexperienced the Chinese military is, it's extremely unlikely they'd try something that sophisticated.

Far more likely they'll try the overwhelming blunt force method, and break their teeth in the process.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
You know that if
'If the USA declares 'All maritime trade to and from China is hereby interdicted until they retreat from Taiwanese soil,'
That is also synonymous with the collapse of the US economy, right?
The deep interconnection of both economies is so big that fucking one is equal to fuck both.

But never stops amazing me the delusional level of people that think the US is invulnerable to any economic war against a peer.
In reality, China is less vulnerable to this kind of war than the US, but just learn a bit how much the economy works, worldwide.
BTW, don't confuse economy with finance (one is real, the other is virtual) - you have already done that mistake with Russia.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
In reality, China is less vulnerable to this kind of war than the US,
This statement proves to me that you don't understand how badly setup the CCP is right now.

I agree that it would suck to be the USA for a while, but a complete maritime shutdown of "Western Taiwan" pretty much guarantees the CCP's economic collapse if not the outright collapse of their government.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
This statement proves to me that you don't understand how badly setup the CCP is right now.

I agree that it would suck to be the USA for a while, but a complete maritime shutdown of "Western Taiwan" pretty much guarantees the CCP's economic collapse if not the outright collapse of their government.
That shows that you don't understand how much the new 'Silk Road' / Extended railroads around all of Asia/Europe changed that.
Right now China can do a lot of commerce with Asia/Europe/Africa without US interference.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
At the same time, the Chinese Air Force/Navy/Rocket Branch can deny US commerce with Japan/SK/Taiwan. Add that to the no commerce with China and care to bet how much the US economy is fucked?
Hint - is a sucker bet.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
That shows that you don't understand how much the new 'Silk Road' / Extended railroads around all of Asia/Europe changed that.
Right now China can do a lot of commerce with Asia/Europe/Africa without US interference.
Those will bring A WHOLE LOT LESS than you think they will. China's silk road extends to the ME and that's about it. It'll make up MAYBE 5% of what they currently get from maritime shipping. Then there's the fun that comes from all those roads have to be protected as well. Good luck with that.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
Funny, Chinese rail transportation already arrived in London several years ago (and in massive numbers). I see that you are behind the news. A lot. No surprise.
Hint - to arrive in London, they have to pass by all of the EU. Do the math, yes even you can.
Add the Arctic path (or whatever is called) and good luck for NATO to operate in that area. The bottom line - the US Navy is not as relevant as you think. China, - and that maybe shocks you - knows about its vulnerabilities and has been working hard to deal with them for decades.
But, please, continue to talk about NATO/US propaganda - is entertaining, even if nothing to do with reality.

Sorry, a bit sarcastic, but I'm tired of propaganda.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
So...you think that, if war breaks out between China and the US, China's rail would still be able to move across 2 continents?
No, I think if War breaks between China and the US we are all Fucked. capital F.
But to answer your question, that rail is enough to delay the collapse of China's economy. And don't forget that the US economy at that time was also on the clock.

The bottom line - the world economy is fucked. Everybody is massively hit. No winners, only losers.
And pre-empting some idiotic people - no, at this time the US can't survive economically, this is not WW2/post-WW2.
And that if the War is not going nuclear. If goes that way, kiss your ass goodbye.
Any decent/honest study tells you that you just need a hundred well-placed nukes to destroy any country - just hit its major cities/hubs and the nation/any nation goes into chaos. Why do you think France/UK/India/Pakistan/China/Israel/etc don't need more than that to have a credible MAD force?
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
That's my point. Those rail lines will cease to function within the first couple of weeks of conflict. They are too long and too vulnerable.
By that time a hundred US cities were nuke hit - the most important ones. Because that kind of attack gets that kind of answer.
Face it - you can't attack that kind of adversary without that kind of answer.
China is not the 5th-grade usual adversary that the US has used to face in the last decades.
So - MAD again. Read my posts about the consequences to the survival of the nation.
Is irrelevant if you have 5 thousand nukes if the adversary only needs about a hundred well-placed to destroy your nation.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
By that time a hundred US cities were nuke hit - the most important ones. Because that kind of attack gets that kind of answer.
Face it - you can't attack that kind of adversary without that kind of answer.
China is not the 5th-grade usual adversary that the US has used to face in the last decades.
So - MAD again. Read my posts about the consequences to the survival of the nation.
Is irrelevant if you have 5 thousand nukes if the adversary only needs about a hundred well-placed to destroy your nation.
and at this point we agree to disagree.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
I would much rather see the CCP collapse all on its own.

We need to sever ourselves off from that diseased tree.
For that you need to rebuild the industry - that takes at least 20 years, if everything goes right. And that if the other side does nothing to oppose you - good luck with that.
The easy times are over. Deal with that.
Don't forget that in the last 20+ years in the US universities in the hard sciences, the 1st group is Chinese, 2nd Indian, 3rd Europeans, and at a distant 4th, the Americans. And that on your home base.
To regain your perceived technological superiority, you need to invert that.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Anybcobflict arising with China would bring in Phillipines, Japan, and SK.
Whoch adds larger allies to America, with the possibility of both Vietnam and India joining.
Will the US hurt?
Yes, but it would allow us to work with allies in the area to move shipping
 

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