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Marduk

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Martial law literally isn't a thing in US Federal law. It was for a little while in 2007, then returned back to the insurrection act, which again, isn't martial law. It's like talking about unicorns: it doesn't matter, it doesn't exist.
In the United States, martial law can be declared on a national level by the President or Congress, or within the borders of a particular state by that state's governor.

It was updated in 2020...
Yes, because otherwise the laws will be abused and you will legally enact a totalitarian government. The reason for the laws is to stop a heads I win tails you lose for totalitarianism. If your freedoms can't survive conflict, you don't have them.
If your state can't survive a conflict, what you think about freedoms or anything else becomes irrelevant, and your new rulers will laugh at your slippery slope.
Ben Franklin had a great quote about this, that I'm going to likely butcher: Those who would sacrifice liberty to preserve safety will receive neither.
Wars are never safe, but without letting propagandists for invaders run free, they can at least be fought sensibly.

That's you. You fundamentally do not understand the US if you think arguing that the constitution is a suicide pact is a good argument.

More, if your country doesn't support what the US has long believed to be human rights (as my opinion, not yours, has been the generally accepted norm for about 50 years in the US), then I don't see why the US should support such countries unless they offer us something valuable.
If you offer us isolationism and suicide pacts, guess we need other allies.
Fortunately you and people who think your way are not in charge, and the chances of that aren't getting much more popular anytime soon. Keep it up, this sort of stubbornness definitely helps keep you away from power.

Understand that NATO isn't really for US protection. It's for European protection. It's a favor. What does the US get in return for us backing up socialists and autocrats?
As above.
If tomorrow the Baltics, Poland, and Ukriane all joined up with Russia, few in the US's lives would meaningfully change. It would barely affect us. Russia is so far below us it's not even funny. So I'm asking, why do we give a shit about NATO if you don't share our beliefs nor actually help us out?
As above.
Let's be honest, you are intensely fishing for any excuse to plead isolationism and flake on long distance alliance commitments, and that's not what anyone looks for in allies.
Israel, at least, has actually helped us with the Iron Dome. The Saudis have oil. Y'all got near nothing except a shared history and beliefs, beliefs you are now shitting on.
First off, considering what most of the people in charge of US government who made those decisions we liked think of your beliefs, and what you think of their beliefs, if anything, by that logic we should try to disagree with your vision as hard as possible for our own good, that is even if it was not inherently unreasonable to begin with.

Secondly, you not knowing about things doesn't make them nonexistent.
 

Abhorsen

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It was updated in 2020...
The last time it was called by the Feds it was maybe during ww2. That's frankly not a terribly in depth source. You may have noticed the previous article you cited which had as its title that the president can't declare martial law.

Look, you don't know what you are talking about, so you are searching everywhere on the internet for something that justifies your opinion, even if your sources contradict one another.


If you offer us isolationism and suicide pacts, guess we need other allies.
Fortunately you and people who think your way are not in charge, and the chances of that aren't getting much more popular anytime soon. Keep it up, this sort of stubbornness definitely helps keep you away from power.

As above.
As above.
Let's be honest, you are intensely fishing for any excuse to plead isolationism and flake on long distance alliance commitments, and that's not what anyone looks for in allies.
Given that one of two major parties is looking at NATO like why bother? And that you drastically underestimate the isolationist sentiment in the US? Please go find another ally ASAP.

Note you were able to point to exactly nothing you offer us, btw.


The second list has zero mention of thing that help Americans at home. The first, well, it's not nothing, but then helping Intel agencies isn't exactly a positive either for a US population who knows that TLAs aren't always our friends.

Your shared value of opposition to communism? Now that's an argument. But that argument fades if you end up with some manner of dictator, which is where all of Europe is headed for their inability to guarantee rights. How long until Law and Justice gets banned?
 

King Arts

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Did he ever ask to get out of Ukraine
Through the US?
The government should have asked for Ukraine to send him back to the U.S. then Ukraine can permanently ban him from their country. Either that or the government should have revoked his citizenship. Allowing a citizen to languish in a foreign nation looks bad.

This. No country will evacuate their citizen from another country at war against his will while he wants to stay there being retarded and committing crimes against allies.
No one has reached such a level of nanny state yet.
Not unlike the earlier, even more controversial case of non-militant ISIL supporters moving to ME.
No all reasonable countries ARE that level of "nanny state" Because nations don't like their citizens to be killed yet if a citizen of one nation is fucking around with another state his nation is not officially at war with it becomes a complicated situation. That other state can't allow an enemy, but the nation he is a citizen of does have too look out for their citizen's wellbeing.

The answer is obvious either the nation disavows that citizen, OR they bring him back home. That's how we make sure that American citizens won't be killed by Russia or China or other rivals we aren't at war with.
 

Marduk

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The last time it was called by the Feds it was maybe during ww2. That's frankly not a terribly in depth source. You may have noticed the previous article you cited which had as its title that the president can't declare martial law.

Look, you don't know what you are talking about, so you are searching everywhere on the internet for something that justifies your opinion, even if your sources contradict one another.
It seems to me that you are mixing up your personal and rather fringe interpretations of US law and jurisprudence, and then casually handwave away anyone who disagrees, or shake a fist at them if its courts or government.
Yeah, sure, i don't know what i'm talking about.
Given that one of two major parties is looking at NATO like why bother? And that you drastically underestimate the isolationist sentiment in the US? Please go find another ally ASAP.

Note you were able to point to exactly nothing you offer us, btw.
Welp, lemme spell it out then. It is in the interest of Poland and any of our nationalists to help political forces that oppose isolationism in USA. Trying to cater to the isolationists on the other hand is a lose-lose proposition for us. Either we get friends who aren't in power, or we get friends who are in power and pride themselves on telling us that few if anyone really is a worthwhile ally, and they don't want to do anything, military especially, if we need it.
The second list has zero mention of thing that help Americans at home. The first, well, it's not nothing, but then helping Intel agencies isn't exactly a positive either for a US population who knows that TLAs aren't always our friends.
Still they are more friends to us than US isolationists, they actually have common interests with us, while the whole sentiment behind isolationists is that they would spend immense amount of effort to argue that there may be a small chance that they don't have common interests with us or anyone else in Europe or Asia.
Your shared value of opposition to communism? Now that's an argument.
Islamists, i mean honest to Allah head chopping jihadists, also share opposition to communism with us, no one can deny that. But that doesn't make them our allies or vice versa, we both understand that. Frenemies at most, in some exotic circumstances, and we all know how dangerous it is to play with frenemies. So keep these contrarian teenager grade foreign policy analysis hot takes to people who don't consider them a joke.
We both know that if you a government in USA had 99% support in USA and sufficient military capabilities to guarantee victory with no major losses, then the most stereotypical of boomercon warhawks would definitely be more likely to launch a global crusade against communism than the isolationists. You know that, i know that.
But that argument fades if you end up with some manner of dictator, which is where all of Europe is headed for their inability to guarantee rights. How long until Law and Justice gets banned?
Who knows (no one)? Who cares (they and their core electorate does, but those to the right it, depends by who)? We in that region have more meaningful problems on our hands than hypothetical dictators.
The government should have asked for Ukraine to send him back to the U.S. then Ukraine can permanently ban him from their country. Either that or the government should have revoked his citizenship. Allowing a citizen to languish in a foreign nation looks bad.
Sometimes it looks good. It shows that you respect your allies, their judgement, and don't disagree with them that this citizen fucked up. All countries in the world, at least in some cases, do let some citizens to languish in a foreign prison even, especially if they are in good relations with that country.
No all reasonable countries ARE that level of "nanny state" Because nations don't like their citizens to be killed yet if a citizen of one nation is fucking around with another state his nation is not officially at war with it becomes a complicated situation. That other state can't allow an enemy, but the nation he is a citizen of does have too look out for their citizen's wellbeing.
A lot of nations don't give much of a fuck if its some kind of widely understood troublemaker. The implied message being that they should have stayed home rather than go screw with allies or neutrals.
The answer is obvious either the nation disavows that citizen, OR they bring him back home. That's how we make sure that American citizens won't be killed by Russia or China or other rivals we aren't at war with.
Those often just say no and there isn't much you can do about it that you wouldn't do anyway.
It's more use if there are cultural differences with countries where relations are more complicated.
But in cases where the foreign country and US government hates the shit the citizen was doing? Why would they waste effort intervening? Say, if a crazy jihadist goes to Russia to do crazy jihadist things and gets arrested, US government will be less inclined to get him out than if, say, a vegetable salesman went to Russia and got arrested for espionage, or even worse, an actual agent went to Russia and got arrested for espionage, then it's a duty to not just try, but to do whatever is realistic.
Hell, in fact there were cases when a crazy jihadist US citizen went to some war torn shithole, didn't even get arrested as it's a shithole, so the US government evacuated him... to the afterlife, with a drone strike.
 
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Zachowon

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The government should have asked for Ukraine to send him back to the U.S. then Ukraine can permanently ban him from their country. Either that or the government should have revoked his citizenship. Allowing a citizen to languish in a foreign nation looks bad.
......you break foreign laws you suffer the penalty. If an army soldier breaks german laws we are allowed to be held by the locals for as long as needed or they can give us back to base.
And thay is according to the SOFA agreement.
Normal US citizens don't follow SOFA and thier visas are fully allowed by the host nation.
Which means they can be held by a host nation for as long as the crime is punishable for.
No all reasonable countries ARE that level of "nanny state" Because nations don't like their citizens to be killed yet if a citizen of one nation is fucking around with another state his nation is not officially at war with it becomes a complicated situation. That other state can't allow an enemy, but the nation he is a citizen of does have too look out for their citizen's wellbeing.
go to france and break a law.
go to Russia
go to any nation and break a law.
you arnt immune, and the US has no obligation to save your ass due to you doing something stupid
The answer is obvious either the nation disavows that citizen, OR they bring him back home. That's how we make sure that American citizens won't be killed by Russia or China or other rivals we aren't at war with.
That isn't how it works.
 

Abhorsen

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Islamists, i mean honest to Allah head chopping jihadists, also share opposition to communism with us, no one can deny that. But that doesn't make them our allies or vice versa, we both understand that. Frenemies at most, in some exotic circumstances, and we all know how dangerous it is to play with frenemies. So keep these contrarian teenager grade foreign policy analysis hot takes to people who don't consider them a joke.
... Christ, you are bad at this. If you don't realize that Poland is more similar to the US than Islamists, IDK why I bother with your arguments. I gave an example of a similarities between the US and Poland, not an indepth defense. And then you even fail to defeat the strawman.

If Poland was more similar to Islamists than the US, I'd be actively calling to completely kick Poland out of NATO, and so would everyone else with a brain. I'd be trying to help actual refugees leave Poland and immigrate here.
 

Marduk

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... Christ, you are bad at this. If you don't realize that Poland is more similar to the US than Islamists, IDK why I bother with your arguments. I gave an example of a similarities between the US and Poland, not an indepth defense. And then you even fail to defeat the strawman.

If Poland was more similar to Islamists than the US, I'd be actively calling to completely kick Poland out of NATO, and so would everyone else with a brain. I'd be trying to help actual refugees leave Poland and immigrate here.
And yet you manage to miss the point. The average boomercon is even more similar to Poland (and even more so to a Law and Justice voter) than you, also opposes communists, and also is less interested in the isolationist practice of desperately looking for reasons to drop alliances. What's not to like from our point of view?
Part of the definition of a sovereign nation, is that within their borders, their laws are applied.

If you don't like those laws, don't go to that nation.

It's bizarre to see Abhorsen, of all people, making globalist interventionist arguments.
I think he's doing a foreign policy equivalent of trying to make a kid not smoke by making him to smoke 20 cigs one after another in hope he gets sick, vomits, and the unpleasant experience makes him lose interest in smoking for good.
Already told him that the other side is too clever to fall for this kind of stuff.
 
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Abhorsen

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Part of the definition of a sovereign nation, is that within their borders, their laws are applied.

If you don't like those laws, don't go to that nation.

It's bizarre to see Abhorsen, of all people, making globalist interventionist arguments.
I'm saying that if America is going to be giving Ukraine special treatment, I don't see why America doesn't use that leverage on it's own citizen's behalf. I don't believe in foreign aid at all, but if it happens, I expect it to somehow benefit America.

My position on Ukraine has consistently been: it shit that it is happening, also not our business. But if we decide to make it our business, it should in someway actually help US citizens or advance a liberty policy. Basically, if it's a given that the US is going to be interventionist globalist, it might as well be globalist in the interests of liberty not in the service of a bunch of countries that actively follow Davos' agenda.
 

LordsFire

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I'm saying that if America is going to be giving Ukraine special treatment, I don't see why America doesn't use that leverage on it's own citizen's behalf. I don't believe in foreign aid at all, but if it happens, I expect it to somehow benefit America.

My position on Ukraine has consistently been: it shit that it is happening, also not our business. But if we decide to make it our business, it should in someway actually help US citizens or advance a liberty policy. Basically, if it's a given that the US is going to be interventionist globalist, it might as well be globalist in the interests of liberty not in the service of a bunch of countries that actively follow Davos' agenda.
Fighting to stop Russia is actively working in the interests of liberty.

Lira was actively supporting a dictatorship engaged in attempted conquest, from inside the nation it was attempting to conquer. Doing that kind of shit carries consequences.

If he just wanted to speak in favor of Russia, he could have done that from within US borders without consequences, yet he decided to actively spread enemy propaganda, and allegedly a number of other things, within the nation being invaded.

That has consequences.


Why is it so hard to wrap your mind around this?
 

Terthna

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Fighting to stop Russia is actively working in the interests of liberty.

Lira was actively supporting a dictatorship engaged in attempted conquest, from inside the nation it was attempting to conquer. Doing that kind of shit carries consequences.

If he just wanted to speak in favor of Russia, he could have done that from within US borders without consequences, yet he decided to actively spread enemy propaganda, and allegedly a number of other things, within the nation being invaded.

That has consequences.


Why is it so hard to wrap your mind around this?
Should those consequences have included torture and death though? More importantly, shouldn't it matter to us that the United States government let one of its citizens be tortured and killed by a foreign government; regardless of the reasons why?
 

Abhorsen

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Fighting to stop Russia is actively working in the interests of liberty.
See, I'm not sure that it is. It's working in the interests of US imperialism, sure. But given what Ukraine has sunk to, I don't find it to be that free of a country. Mass conscription, banning of oppositions parties, banning of religions, etc. So I disagree it is fighting for liberty. In fact, offering Russia and Ukraine a lasting peace (NATO entry of Ukraine bought with Ukrainian land) would, IMO, be the main global libertarian option.

If we were actually fighting for liberty, it would be by trading our military for Ukraine establishing permanent civil liberties, which I don't see happening.

See, I'm more of a nationalist libertarian, who believes that some people simply don't want freedom, and that's fine. We similarly aren't obligated to help them.
 

Marduk

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Should those consequences have included torture and death though? More importantly, shouldn't it matter to us that the United States government let one of its citizens be tortured and killed by a foreign government; regardless of the reasons why?
"tortured and killed"
If we play such definition stretching game...
So, Reuters conducted its own tally of fatalities in America's biggest jails, pinpointing where suicide, botched healthcare and bad jailkeeping are claiming lives in a system with scant oversight.
Guess USA can't say much when they have the same problem while being richer and not having power infrastructure shot at with fucking cruise missiles.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
See, I'm not sure that it is. It's working in the interests of US imperialism, sure. But given what Ukraine has sunk to, I don't find it to be that free of a country. Mass conscription, banning of oppositions parties, banning of religions, etc. So I disagree it is fighting for liberty. In fact, offering Russia and Ukraine a lasting peace (NATO entry of Ukraine bought with Ukrainian land) would, IMO, be the main global libertarian option.

If we were actually fighting for liberty, it would be by trading our military for Ukraine establishing permanent civil liberties, which I don't see happening.

See, I'm more of a nationalist libertarian, who believes that some people simply don't want freedom, and that's fine. We similarly aren't obligated to help them.
1. Russia will not accept any part of Ukraine in NATO, so talking about such negotiations is pointless.
2. Specific parties and sects that have loyalty to Russia have been banned.
3. You have extremist views on liberty, even compared to American Conservatives. Rights come with responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities in wartime is to serve. If you don't want to serve, renounce your citizenship.

And most importantly:
4. Unless you personally go into Ukraine and do detailed investigations yourself, you aren't going to know for sure how corrupt the nation is or is not, and whether actions taken against the Russian Orthodox, Russophile parties, etc, are reasonable or opportunism with the war as an excuse. Not during the war, anyways. After it's ended and there isn't such intense political and military pressure, clearer pictures will start to emerge.


What Russia has been doing and is trying to do is absolutely unaccaptable. It is clearly and unequivocably evil.

What Ukraine is doing to try and stop Russia is questionably evil. Like in any large group of people, I'm certain there is at least some crossing the lines around the edges of what is going on, but there's a high bar to pass if you want to demonstrate that they're at least as bad as the Russians.

And even if they were as bad as the Russians, having them and the Russians bleed each other rather than someone else is in the dispassionate self-interest of the US & Allies.


You are, in essence, making a 'they're not pure enough to support' argument.

Nobody is pure. We live in the real world, where decisions can be clear-cut black and white, but every person, and especially every nation, is a shade of gray. If you're only willing to support those that are pure white, or even just nearly pure white, you'll never support anyone, and you're going to leave the world in the hands of the worst of the worst.

We don't live in a world of platonic abstracts.
 

Cherico

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See, I'm not sure that it is. It's working in the interests of US imperialism, sure. But given what Ukraine has sunk to, I don't find it to be that free of a country. Mass conscription, banning of oppositions parties, banning of religions, etc. So I disagree it is fighting for liberty. In fact, offering Russia and Ukraine a lasting peace (NATO entry of Ukraine bought with Ukrainian land) would, IMO, be the main global libertarian option.

If we were actually fighting for liberty, it would be by trading our military for Ukraine establishing permanent civil liberties, which I don't see happening.

See, I'm more of a nationalist libertarian, who believes that some people simply don't want freedom, and that's fine. We similarly aren't obligated to help them.

wars of national survival are ugly things and always have been.
 

Abhorsen

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wars of national survival are ugly things and always have been.
Sure. And we also don't need to help out.
You are, in essence, making a 'they're not pure enough to support' argument.

Nobody is pure. We live in the real world, where decisions can be clear-cut black and white, but every person, and especially every nation, is a shade of gray. If you're only willing to support those that are pure white, or even just nearly pure white, you'll never support anyone, and you're going to leave the world in the hands of the worst of the worst.

We don't live in a world of platonic abstracts.
Yes. But I'm not asking for perfection (note the 'enough'). I'm asking for not bottom of the barrel, and I'm not getting it.

At this point, why bother?

Bad stuff happens everywhere, it's not the US's job to fix all bad things, and we aren't capable of doing it. If you are going to support some manner of intervention, it would need to be where the difference is stark. Taiwan is a thriving democracy, China is, well, the CCP. Israel is a thriving democracy, Gaza is a terrorist genocidal state.

Then we get to Ukraine, which at this point is a maybe democracy that's incredibly corrupt without any civil liberties and mass conscription. Versus Russia which is a dictatorship, but hugely less bad than the CCP. Ukraine has failed to separate enough for me to actually care to fight for Ukrainian NATO recognition, which is the only actual end result other than a Russian victory.

Also, the thing I offered of swapping land for NATO? It hasn't even been offered.
 

King Arts

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Sometimes it looks good. It shows that you respect your allies, their judgement, and don't disagree with them that this citizen fucked up. All countries in the world, at least in some cases, do let some citizens to languish in a foreign prison even, especially if they are in good relations with that country.
We don’t respect our Allie’s enough to let them punish a US citizen who did something that was not a crime back home. There is a difference between a us citizen murdering or raping a local and them saying things that are illegal there but not here. In the second case give them back to us.

A lot of nations don't give much of a fuck if it’s some kind of widely understood troublemaker. The implied message being that they should have stayed home rather than go screw with allies or neutrals.
Then you don’t live in a free nation. A free nation has the citizens as the masters and everything is for their benefit and gratification. If a free nation has a troublemaker it deals with it themselves.

Those often just say no and there isn't much you can do about it that you wouldn't do anyway.
It's more use if there are cultural differences with countries where relations are more complicated.
But in cases where the foreign country and US government hates the shit the citizen was doing? Why would they waste effort intervening? Say, if a crazy jihadist goes to Russia to do crazy jihadist things and gets arrested, US government will be less inclined to get him out than if, say, a vegetable salesman went to Russia and got arrested for espionage, or even worse, an actual agent went to Russia and got arrested for espionage, then it's a duty to not just try, but to do whatever is realistic.
Hell, in fact there were cases when a crazy jihadist US citizen went to some war torn shithole, didn't even get arrested as it's a shithole, so the US government evacuated him... to the afterlife, with a drone strike.
A crazy Nihadist is doing things that are illegal here also. Also killing them while fighting in a war is different than just arresting them out of hand.

A better example an American goes to Saudi Arabia and is caught fucking a man up the ass or saying that Islam is false. The Saudis our Allie’s plan to execute him for his heinous crimes. Should America allow that to happen?

......you break foreign laws you suffer the penalty. If an army soldier breaks german laws we are allowed to be held by the locals for as long as needed or they can give us back to base.
And thay is according to the SOFA agreement.
Normal US citizens don't follow SOFA and thier visas are fully allowed by the host nation.
Which means they can be held by a host nation for as long as the crime is punishable for.
Ok the militaries deals with host nations don’t matter. Again answer my previous question about the gay guy. I don’t think your bosses would be ok with letting a gay get killed because it’s against the law there.

go to france and break a law.
go to Russia
go to any nation and break a law.
you arnt immune, and the US has no obligation to save your ass due to you doing something stupid
Yes it does. If it’s a crime there but not here the US should apply pressure to bring them back. Other nations have a right to stop Americans from violating their laws, but they don’t have a right for revenge. Otherwise this nation is useless and so is the military since your job is to fight for our interests and comfort and desires.
That isn't how it works.
Yes it does otherwise this nation and government is useless.
 

Marduk

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We don’t respect our Allie’s enough to let them punish a US citizen who did something that was not a crime back home. There is a difference between a us citizen murdering or raping a local and them saying things that are illegal there but not here. In the second case give them back to us.
Who's "we"? The US government seems to. Is there at leasta pool? Seems like you may have a minority, if not fringe opinion on that.
Obviously Ukraine is under martial law while USA isn't. But then again, the martial law started how many months ago? And what did this retard do over the time?
Then you don’t live in a free nation. A free nation has the citizens as the masters and everything is for their benefit and gratification. If a free nation has a troublemaker it deals with it themselves.
That's not how the world works, and probably no country in it does.
Ultimately some of the "masters" will think that some of the other "masters" are being retarded and they don't feel like "everything" should be for their benefit and gratification.
A crazy Nihadist is doing things that are illegal here also. Also killing them while fighting in a war is different than just arresting them out of hand.
He wasn't arrested out of hand, he was arrested for doing shit that's controversial in peacetime and pretty much unacceptable during an invasion.
A better example an American goes to Saudi Arabia and is caught fucking a man up the ass or saying that Islam is false. The Saudis our Allie’s plan to execute him for his heinous crimes. Should America allow that to happen?
In fact there are quite a few cases along those lines, if not so extreme.
By US standards that's cruel and unusual punishment, for something that would be considered a misdemeanor in US, and that's just in the more orderly parts.
US government commented, and Singapore thought of the argument, and still went with it, just slightly less.
Singapore is not some particularly important or powerful country and more neutral-friendly to USA, not ally technically.
Ok the militaries deals with host nations don’t matter. Again answer my previous question about the gay guy. I don’t think your bosses would be ok with letting a gay get killed because it’s against the law there.
There would probably be a diplomatic intervention attempt, but i would not bet money on the outcome. Still, at least seems like even the gay hedonists aren't dumb enough to go to places like this to be openly gay, as it doesn't seem to be happening either way.

I don't think you have any knowledge to base speaking about my bosses on and you should refrain from it, lest you want me to start theorizing about yours, trust me, i'm willing and capable of that. Just give the word if you don't believe it.
Yes it does. If it’s a crime there but not here the US should apply pressure to bring them back. Other nations have a right to stop Americans from violating their laws, but they don’t have a right for revenge. Otherwise this nation is useless and so is the military since your job is to fight for our interests and comfort and desires.
If it wants to. And the pressure probably will not be equal, depending on what country that is, who the citizen is, and what did he or she do.
Yes, the government and the military should fight for national interests...
But have you considered the possibility that helping the particular citizen may not be that?

Especially relevant to situations in which the citizens was, if anything, pursuing activities counter to US interests, or just carelessly shitting up the PR for USA. If they were neutral, the US has some basic duty stemming from citizenship, and it goes beyond that if the citizen was actually was there serving the national interests while he got into trouble, as it is with spies and soldiers.
 

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