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Points 5, 6, and 7 are erroneous. There is only one life at those points. I know you'd like it to be "1 or 2" to keep your argument alive but no one in the life begins at conception camp believes it's one or two; it's definitely one because that's the axiomatic definition of a chimera.
I'm quite fine with it being 1. I'm also fine with it being 2. I just didn't want to give a definite answer for that point in a column representing an opinion I didn't agree with. The issue is that at some point it is 2, then it becomes 1. Depending on where a person decides to make it become 1, I'll point out issues.

The transition from 4 to 5 is just an unfortunate consequence of messy biology and complications with pregnancy for twins. This isn't a problem with the life begins at conception point of view, it's your contrived example based on your mistaken assumptions.
Just accepting it as a death is a completely valid approach. The issue is that nothing actually 'dies' in any biological sense. Scientifically speaking, it just goes on as effectively, a parasitic/symbiotic organism with human DNA. So calling it a scientific 'death' is the wrong term. And this goes to why 'life begins at conception' isn't science, it's philosophy. You can argue it's good philosophy, but it's still philosophy.

Also, what about that makes it one person, but makes a siamese twin with two functioning brains two people, but a siamese twin with one brain one person? Because, looking symptomatically, chimerism is simply a very small siamese twin. At what point on that scale does the saimese twin become a separate human?

See, my definition of humanity has a built in answer to this. Yours needs special handling for these contingencies.

This is an especially good example for the discussion because 20 weeks is catastrophically premature to the point of not functioning as a natural birth, but if born premature or C-Sectioned at that point can be saved with technology and the vast majority of complications that would make the pregnancy non-viable or the child's quality of life intrinsically terrible can be diagnosed.
Whether or not the child can survive, is, to my mind, almost completely irrelevant to whether an abortion is moral. The first, most important question is whether or not the embryo is an alive human person yet. Viability only impacts whether an evacuation (a very early birth + legal abandonment of the child as a replacement for abortion) is moral.
 
No, it  absolutely matters. Because there are two lives going around, then one just disappearing without dying makes no sense.
No it doesn't, and its pretty rude to make this post and only later add my comment in as a quote
If a definition of human life can't tell how many human lives there are, it fails as a definition.
No definition or worldview, but one you've invented in this thread for some reason, has this problem. You also continue to argue around the point, which is that human life begins at conception. Just concede that science and christians are in agreement here lol
 
I'm quite fine with it being 1. I'm also fine with it being 2. I just didn't want to give a definite answer for that point in a column representing an opinion I didn't agree with. The issue is that at some point it is 2, then it becomes 1. Depending on where a person decides to make it become 1, I'll point out issues.


Just accepting it as a death is a completely valid approach.
It's not a death. From here, the only real distinction you'll be able to find is rooted in philosophical arguments. From the purely materialistic perspective, no death occurred. The dominant embryo suppressed the growth of the other embyro and grew around it.
The issue is that nothing actually 'dies' in any biological sense. Scientifically speaking, it just goes on as effectively, a parasitic/symbiotic organism with human DNA.
It's a commensal relationship, not parasitic.
So calling it a scientific 'death' is the wrong term. And this goes to why 'life begins at conception' isn't science, it's philosophy. You can argue it's good philosophy, but it's still philosophy.
I'm not calling it a death, neither do biologists. The second embryo's development is arrested by the first. It does not follow you'd need philosophy to resolve the non-issue of whether it's one or two people, biology does that just fine.
Also, what about that makes it one person, but makes a siamese twin with two functioning brains two people, but a siamese twin with one brain one person? Because, looking symptomatically, chimerism is simply a very small siamese twin. At what point on that scale does the saimese twin become a separate human?

See, my definition of humanity has a built in answer to this. Yours needs special handling for these contingencies.
In the the first and second case, they are both two people. In the first case, it's two people with two brains that don't touch. In the second case, I believe you're mistaken. There's still two brains, they're just joined at certain parts. They share and send signals back and forth but they're two separate personalities. In essence, 1 and 2 are the same situation you're breaking into two cases for the sake of your argument. They aren't equivalent with chimerism at all since one embryo didn't arrest the development of the other, they both continued developing and melded in a horrifying way. The "scale" of this false equivalency is nonsensical.
 
It's not a death. From here, the only real distinction you'll be able to find is rooted in philosophical arguments. From the purely materialistic perspective, no death occurred. The dominant embryo suppressed the growth of the other embyro and grew around it.
If it's not a death, then you've left science and Christianity both, and there's not a future death. You have someone who was born, but never died.

Look, you are in a dilemma here. You can pick one of three: either the chimera part is alive until amputation, it died before at some point (maybe even a point I didn't list), or it was never a human. Inventing a new way for a human life to end that isn't death is neither a Christian nor scientific solution to your problem.

It's a commensal relationship, not parasitic.
See, I was thinking about changing that when I wrote that, but I think it's technically, barely, parasitic, in that the mole would need some nutrients like any other group of cells, and it provides none. It's not full on hermit crabs taking abandoned shells. Regardless, this point is minor and incidental to the point I made.

I'm not calling it a death, neither do biologists. The second embryo's development is arrested by the first. It does not follow you'd need philosophy to resolve the non-issue of whether it's one or two people, biology does that just fine.
I'm pretty sure, at some point, they do say the organism died, while keeping it as a separate organism. Really, that wouldn't be weird at all for a biologist, as every biologist knows the majority of cells in a human (by count, IDK about by weight) are not even human, but part of the internal ecosystem of the body, like gut bacteria. This would just be another organism living on the body.

In the the first and second case, they are both two people. In the first case, it's two people with two brains that don't touch. In the second case, I believe you're mistaken. There's still two brains, they're just joined at certain parts. They share and send signals back and forth but they're two separate personalities. In essence, 1 and 2 are the same situation you're breaking into two cases for the sake of your argument.
In some cases, there are two brains (the more famous examples). In others, there's actually only one head, usually in cases of parasitic or vestigial twins, where all that remains of the other twin are some excess limbs. There's not even no second brain, there's no second head, nor connection at the head.

They aren't equivalent with chimerism at all since one embryo didn't arrest the development of the other, they both continued developing and melded in a horrifying way. The "scale" of this false equivalency is nonsensical.
This is why I said 'Symptomatically' similar:
Because, looking symptomatically, chimerism is simply a very small siamese twin.
Obviously, the cause and how this happened are different, but the end result (i.e. the symptoms) is pretty similar: a naturally occurring state where a human body can have multiple different genotypes. Sorta like saying a cold and an allergy are symptomatically similar, in that I get a headache, runny nose, cough, etc, from both.

No it doesn't, and its pretty rude to make this post and only later add my comment in as a quote
Apologies to the second part. I posted intending to reply, but forgot the quote, then realized that, then added it.

No definition or worldview, but one you've invented in this thread for some reason, has this problem. You also continue to argue around the point, which is that human life begins at conception. Just concede that science and christians are in agreement here lol
Literally I pointed out that the definition that comes from "life begins at conception" has this problem, and explained how it has that problem. You are now just saying "No you didn't" and I'm not interested in continuing to reply "Yes I did" if you won't actually engage the points I've made. I've not 'argued around the point'. I've argued exactly that point, by pointing out two major flaws (chimerism and identical twins) with the point. It's absolutely not scientific
 
If it's not a death, then you've left science and Christianity both, and there's not a future death. You have someone who was born, but never died.

Look, you are in a dilemma here. You can pick one of three: either the chimera part is alive until amputation, it died before at some point (maybe even a point I didn't list), or it was never a human. Inventing a new way for a human life to end that isn't death is neither a Christian nor scientific solution to your problem.
No. There is no issue here from a biological perspective. The biology is very clear about what's happening. You'd like me to concede on this point but I will not. The biology doesn't care for the human conception of death. The second embryo doesn't die at any point of the chimerization. That's just what chimerization is.

Second, now you're adding another term to muddy the waters "born". The first baby isn't born until they leave the womb. The absorbed embryo is never born because they never developed and were, you know, absorbed. The biology isn't ambiguous here. It's just inherent to what a chimera is.

Of your three options, the chimeric mole will "die", in so far as the cells will stop functioning if removed from the newly born baby. That doesn't change that these lives started at conception.

The only conflict in any of these statements occurs because of the philosophical side of the argument for personhood. From purely materialistic arguments, the biology is what it is.

See, I was thinking about changing that when I wrote that, but I think it's technically, barely, parasitic, in that the mole would need some nutrients like any other group of cells, and it provides none. It's not full on hermit crabs taking abandoned shells. Regardless, this point is minor and incidental to the point I made.
Commensal relationships are where the host gains no benefit nor detriment while the symbiont gains a benefit. As far as the chimera is concerned, it's not even a true symbiont because chimerism is absorption of the second embryo's cells. I'm fine with tabling this line of argumentation as irrelevant as well.

I'm pretty sure, at some point, they do say the organism died, while keeping it as a separate organism. Really, that wouldn't be weird at all for a biologist, as every biologist knows the majority of cells in a human (by count, IDK about by weight) are not even human, but part of the internal ecosystem of the body, like gut bacteria. This would just be another organism living on the body.
No. Doctors say the second embryo "died" when explaining this weird biology to confused parents but as far as biologists who care about the technicalities are concerned, no "death" occurs. The clinical setting needs to simplify this for emotional parents to understand and, hopefully, move past with a minimal of fuss.

Further, no biologist would ever say that gut flora are dead and "part of the internal ecosystem", I'm not following anything else in your statement here.

In some cases, there are two brains (the more famous examples). In others, there's actually only one head, usually in cases of parasitic or vestigial twins, where all that remains of the other twin are some excess limbs. There's not even no second brain, there's no second head, nor connection at the head.

This is why I said 'Symptomatically' similar:
Obviously, the cause and how this happened are different, but the end result (i.e. the symptoms) is pretty similar: a naturally occurring state where a human body can have multiple different genotypes. Sorta like saying a cold and an allergy are symptomatically similar, in that I get a headache, runny nose, cough, etc, from both.
Yeah, nope, not buying that. As far as I can tell, every class of conjoined twin have two distinct brains even if they share the same skull. The degree to which they are conjoined is up for analysis, but they definitely have distinct nervous systems with degrees of conjoined sections. Even in extreme cases where the vestigial twin (autosite) is definitely parasitic to the primary twin, the autosite still has a distinct body with distinct organs, nervous system, and brain. Chimerism is not the same phenomenon as conjoined twins.

Further, trying to shoehorn "symptoms" a term from pathology into the discussion is a bad fit here especially when you're using the term "genotype" the appropriate term is the phenotype. Which, again, has no conflict here at all. Chimeras are not conjoined twins- the phenotypes are completely different and not in conflict.
 

The utter refusal to even look at any information that contradicts his beliefs, compounded with how he insists that everyone is supposed to take everything he says as fact without question, is downright scary to see. This useful idiot with delusions of heroism is probably going to do something profoundly stupid someday, that either gets him (and/or several other people) killed, or locked up for the majority of his young adult life; all in the name of the for-profit cult that fed his ego with sweet-sounding lies.
 
No. There is no issue here from a biological perspective. The biology is very clear about what's happening. You'd like me to concede on this point but I will not. The biology doesn't care for the human conception of death. The second embryo doesn't die at any point of the chimerization. That's just what chimerization is.
Yeah, that's not biology man. Biology would be quite fine with two organism inhabiting one body, one being a parasite/commensalite (I think that's how to noun that). They'd just say "that's two organisms, not one". Or something similar.

Further, no biologist would ever say that gut flora are dead and "part of the internal ecosystem", I'm not following anything else in your statement here.
No, they wouldn't call them dead, they'd say they are part of the microbiome, but a different organism.

Yeah, nope, not buying that. As far as I can tell, every class of conjoined twin have two distinct brains even if they share the same skull. The degree to which they are conjoined is up for analysis, but they definitely have distinct nervous systems with degrees of conjoined sections. Even in extreme cases where the vestigial twin (autosite) is definitely parasitic to the primary twin, the autosite still has a distinct body with distinct organs, nervous system, and brain. Chimerism is not the same phenomenon as conjoined twins.
A vestigial twin is a form of parasitic twinning,[1] where the parasitic "twin" is so malformed and incomplete that it typically consists entirely of extra limbs or organs. It also can be a complete living being trapped inside the host person, however the parasitic twin is anencephalic and lacks consciousness.
  • Acephalus – The most common type, lacking a head, though it may have arms. Thoracic organs are generally absent, and disorganized & unidentifiable tissues take their place.
It can absolutely exist.
 
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Huh, wow, that's fucky. Conceded on this point, that it can exist. Not conceded that this and chimerism is the same thing. The parasitic twin is still distinct. Phenotype is still different.

Yeah, that's not biology man. Biology would be quite fine with two organism inhabiting one body, one being a parasite/commensalite (I think that's how to noun that). They'd just say "that's two organisms, not one". Or something similar.
Biology is perfectly fine with calling a chimera a chimera. The two or more genotypes are still expressed in a specific phenotype while the parasitic twin is two genotypes with another specific phenotype.

No, they wouldn't call them dead, they'd say they are part of the microbiome, but a different organism.
Yes... so what's your point here?
 
The utter refusal to even look at any information that contradicts his beliefs, compounded with how he insists that everyone is supposed to take everything he says as fact without question, is downright scary to see
The alliance between Big Business and the Commies is one of the most bizarre phenomena of modern politics.
 
Saying that Israel is not committing genocide, despite it being objectively true, instantly gets you marked as an alt-right fascist in most online circles. And that says everything you need to know about the illiberal coalition.

BTW, please stop trying to make TheZenoGuy make sense, you're wasting your time. BTW, Zeno, I support Israel because they are Jews and I believe God's Chosen People have the right to do whatsoever they wish to ensure their homeland is safe, especially because it protects the rights of religious and sexual minorities.
Are you trolling or are you serious right now? If it's a joke it's ok but are you serious about the god's chosen people bullshit or not?
 
He's a troll, but there are a lot of jews who would say the 'muh chosenites' garbage sincerely.
No not Jews. I can accept Jews thinking they are God's chosen that's fine. Lots of groups think they are better in some way.

But it's very fucking rare for someone who is NOT part of a group to simp over them and have them be superior. That's what I was asking.
 
No not Jews. I can accept Jews thinking they are God's chosen that's fine. Lots of groups think they are better in some way.

But it's very fucking rare for someone who is NOT part of a group to simp over them and have them be superior. That's what I was asking.
Eh? People do it ALL the time, simping over all sorts of groups.
You have insane leftists who worship black people as basically their new religion, christians who weirdly believe jews to be superior to themselves, and so on.
 
Eh? People do it ALL the time, simping over all sorts of groups.
You have insane leftists who worship black people as basically their new religion, christians who weirdly believe jews to be superior to themselves, and so on.
Ok I forgot about the libs who worship blacks. At least they don't flat out say "Yeah blacks are better than us!"
I know their actions say otherwise.

As for the Evangelicals thats who I was talking about they are the people who worship Jews even though they aren't Jews.
Also please don't call Evangelicals Christian there is nothing Christian about them they are as big heretics as the lgbt "christians" they are hellbound degenerates and we should not associate with them.
 
Ok I forgot about the libs who worship blacks. At least they don't flat out say "Yeah blacks are better than us!"
I know their actions say otherwise.

As for the Evangelicals thats who I was talking about they are the people who worship Jews even though they aren't Jews.
Also please don't call Evangelicals Christian there is nothing Christian about them they are as big heretics as the lgbt "christians" they are hellbound degenerates and we should not associate with them.
Apologies, 'evangelicals' worship jews. And some of the more hardcore leftists actually do proclaim genuine superiority of blacks over anybody else.
Oh hi there, it's the usual suspects wanting to drag the conversation back to Jew=Bad but they totally are not anti-Semitic knuckleheads. *rolls eyes*
I'll stop then, if that makes you happy?
 

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