Five minutes of hate news

[ThatZenoGuy]

If it's not a death, then you've left science and Christianity both, and there's not a future death. You have someone who was born, but never died.

Abhorsen, this reminds me so much of the various hypotheticals from the Scary Movie series. XD

 

[posh-goofiness]

If it's not a death, then you've left science and Christianity both, and there's not a future death. You have someone who was born, but never died.

Look, you are in a dilemma here. You can pick one of three: either the chimera part is alive until amputation, it died before at some point (maybe even a point I didn't list), or it was never a human. Inventing a new way for a human life to end that isn't death is neither a Christian nor scientific solution to your problem.

No. There is no issue here from a biological perspective. The biology is very clear about what's happening. You'd like me to concede on this point but I will not. The biology doesn't care for the human conception of death. The second embryo doesn't die at any point of the chimerization. That's just what chimerization is.

Second, now you're adding another term to muddy the waters "born". The first baby isn't born until they leave the womb. The absorbed embryo is never born because they never developed and were, you know, absorbed. The biology isn't ambiguous here. It's just inherent to what a chimera is.

Of your three options, the chimeric mole will "die", in so far as the cells will stop functioning if removed from the newly born baby. That doesn't change that these lives started at conception.

The only conflict in any of these statements occurs because of the philosophical side of the argument for personhood. From purely materialistic arguments, the biology is what it is.

See, I was thinking about changing that when I wrote that, but I think it's technically, barely, parasitic, in that the mole would need some nutrients like any other group of cells, and it provides none. It's not full on hermit crabs taking abandoned shells. Regardless, this point is minor and incidental to the point I made.

Commensal relationships are where the host gains no benefit nor detriment while the symbiont gains a benefit. As far as the chimera is concerned, it's not even a true symbiont because chimerism is absorption of the second embryo's cells. I'm fine with tabling this line of argumentation as irrelevant as well.

I'm pretty sure, at some point, they do say the organism died, while keeping it as a separate organism. Really, that wouldn't be weird at all for a biologist, as every biologist knows the majority of cells in a human (by count, IDK about by weight) are not even human, but part of the internal ecosystem of the body, like gut bacteria. This would just be another organism living on the body.

No. Doctors say the second embryo "died" when explaining this weird biology to confused parents but as far as biologists who care about the technicalities are concerned, no "death" occurs. The clinical setting needs to simplify this for emotional parents to understand and, hopefully, move past with a minimal of fuss.

Further, no biologist would ever say that gut flora are dead and "part of the internal ecosystem", I'm not following anything else in your statement here.

In some cases, there are two brains (the more famous examples). In others, there's actually only one head, usually in cases of parasitic or vestigial twins, where all that remains of the other twin are some excess limbs. There's not even no second brain, there's no second head, nor connection at the head.

This is why I said 'Symptomatically' similar:
Obviously, the cause and how this happened are different, but the end result (i.e. the symptoms) is pretty similar: a naturally occurring state where a human body can have multiple different genotypes. Sorta like saying a cold and an allergy are symptomatically similar, in that I get a headache, runny nose, cough, etc, from both.

Yeah, nope, not buying that. As far as I can tell, every class of conjoined twin have two distinct brains even if they share the same skull. The degree to which they are conjoined is up for analysis, but they definitely have distinct nervous systems with degrees of conjoined sections. Even in extreme cases where the vestigial twin (autosite) is definitely parasitic to the primary twin, the autosite still has a distinct body with distinct organs, nervous system, and brain. Chimerism is not the same phenomenon as conjoined twins.

Further, trying to shoehorn "symptoms" a term from pathology into the discussion is a bad fit here especially when you're using the term "genotype" the appropriate term is the phenotype. Which, again, has no conflict here at all. Chimeras are not conjoined twins- the phenotypes are completely different and not in conflict.

 

[Terthna]

The utter refusal to even look at any information that contradicts his beliefs, compounded with how he insists that everyone is supposed to take everything he says as fact without question, is downright scary to see. This useful idiot with delusions of heroism is probably going to do something profoundly stupid someday, that either gets him (and/or several other people) killed, or locked up for the majority of his young adult life; all in the name of the for-profit cult that fed his ego with sweet-sounding lies.

 

[Abhorsen]

No. There is no issue here from a biological perspective. The biology is very clear about what's happening. You'd like me to concede on this point but I will not. The biology doesn't care for the human conception of death. The second embryo doesn't die at any point of the chimerization. That's just what chimerization is.

Yeah, that's not biology man. Biology would be quite fine with two organism inhabiting one body, one being a parasite/commensalite (I think that's how to noun that). They'd just say "that's two organisms, not one". Or something similar.

Further, no biologist would ever say that gut flora are dead and "part of the internal ecosystem", I'm not following anything else in your statement here.

No, they wouldn't call them dead, they'd say they are part of the microbiome, but a different organism.

Yeah, nope, not buying that. As far as I can tell, every class of conjoined twin have two distinct brains even if they share the same skull. The degree to which they are conjoined is up for analysis, but they definitely have distinct nervous systems with degrees of conjoined sections. Even in extreme cases where the vestigial twin (autosite) is definitely parasitic to the primary twin, the autosite still has a distinct body with distinct organs, nervous system, and brain. Chimerism is not the same phenomenon as conjoined twins.

Parasitic twin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Vestigial twin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A vestigial twin is a form of parasitic twinning,[1] where the parasitic "twin" is so malformed and incomplete that it typically consists entirely of extra limbs or organs. It also can be a complete living being trapped inside the host person, however the parasitic twin is anencephalic and lacks consciousness.

Twin reversed arterial perfusion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Acephalus – The most common type, lacking a head, though it may have arms. Thoracic organs are generally absent, and disorganized & unidentifiable tissues take their place.

It can absolutely exist.

 

[posh-goofiness]

Parasitic twin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Vestigial twin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Twin reversed arterial perfusion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It can absolutely exist.

Huh, wow, that's fucky. Conceded on this point, that it can exist. Not conceded that this and chimerism is the same thing. The parasitic twin is still distinct. Phenotype is still different.

Yeah, that's not biology man. Biology would be quite fine with two organism inhabiting one body, one being a parasite/commensalite (I think that's how to noun that). They'd just say "that's two organisms, not one". Or something similar.

Biology is perfectly fine with calling a chimera a chimera. The two or more genotypes are still expressed in a specific phenotype while the parasitic twin is two genotypes with another specific phenotype.

No, they wouldn't call them dead, they'd say they are part of the microbiome, but a different organism.

Yes... so what's your point here?

 

[SoliFortissimi]

The utter refusal to even look at any information that contradicts his beliefs, compounded with how he insists that everyone is supposed to take everything he says as fact without question, is downright scary to see

The alliance between Big Business and the Commies is one of the most bizarre phenomena of modern politics.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

The alliance between Big Business and the Commies is one of the most bizarre phenomena of modern politics.

not really cults tend to attract the rich.

 

[King Arts]

Saying that Israel is not committing genocide, despite it being objectively true, instantly gets you marked as an alt-right fascist in most online circles. And that says everything you need to know about the illiberal coalition.

BTW, please stop trying to make TheZenoGuy make sense, you're wasting your time. BTW, Zeno, I support Israel because they are Jews and I believe God's Chosen People have the right to do whatsoever they wish to ensure their homeland is safe, especially because it protects the rights of religious and sexual minorities.

Are you trolling or are you serious right now? If it's a joke it's ok but are you serious about the god's chosen people bullshit or not?

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Are you trolling or are you serious right now? If it's a joke it's ok but are you serious about the god's chosen people bullshit or not?

He's a troll, but there are a lot of jews who would say the 'muh chosenites' garbage sincerely.

 

[King Arts]

He's a troll, but there are a lot of jews who would say the 'muh chosenites' garbage sincerely.

No not Jews. I can accept Jews thinking they are God's chosen that's fine. Lots of groups think they are better in some way.

But it's very fucking rare for someone who is NOT part of a group to simp over them and have them be superior. That's what I was asking.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

No not Jews. I can accept Jews thinking they are God's chosen that's fine. Lots of groups think they are better in some way.

But it's very fucking rare for someone who is NOT part of a group to simp over them and have them be superior. That's what I was asking.

Eh? People do it ALL the time, simping over all sorts of groups.
You have insane leftists who worship black people as basically their new religion, christians who weirdly believe jews to be superior to themselves, and so on.

 

[King Arts]

Eh? People do it ALL the time, simping over all sorts of groups.
You have insane leftists who worship black people as basically their new religion, christians who weirdly believe jews to be superior to themselves, and so on.

Ok I forgot about the libs who worship blacks. At least they don't flat out say "Yeah blacks are better than us!"
I know their actions say otherwise.

As for the Evangelicals thats who I was talking about they are the people who worship Jews even though they aren't Jews.
Also please don't call Evangelicals Christian there is nothing Christian about them they are as big heretics as the lgbt "christians" they are hellbound degenerates and we should not associate with them.

 

[LordSunhawk]

Oh hi there, it's the usual suspects wanting to drag the conversation back to Jew=Bad but they totally are not anti-Semitic knuckleheads. *rolls eyes*

 

[King Arts]

Oh hi there, it's the usual suspects wanting to drag the conversation back to Jew=Bad but they totally are not anti-Semitic knuckleheads. *rolls eyes*

I did not even say anything bad about Jews.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Ok I forgot about the libs who worship blacks. At least they don't flat out say "Yeah blacks are better than us!"
I know their actions say otherwise.

As for the Evangelicals thats who I was talking about they are the people who worship Jews even though they aren't Jews.
Also please don't call Evangelicals Christian there is nothing Christian about them they are as big heretics as the lgbt "christians" they are hellbound degenerates and we should not associate with them.

Apologies, 'evangelicals' worship jews. And some of the more hardcore leftists actually do proclaim genuine superiority of blacks over anybody else.

Oh hi there, it's the usual suspects wanting to drag the conversation back to Jew=Bad but they totally are not anti-Semitic knuckleheads. *rolls eyes*

I'll stop then, if that makes you happy?

 

[LordsFire]

It's funny how authoritatively people will make claims about the attitudes of 'evangelicals' on specific subjects.

You almost might as well make decisive claims about 'protestants.' There's certainly some core things anyone who is an 'evangelical' will believe in, but there's a massive suite of differences in other areas, such as regard towards the present-day nation of Israel.

Any claim that 'evangelicals' believe in some bizarre form of 'jewish superiority' is nothing more less than exposing ignorance of what the evangelical sub-culture is actually like.

 

[IndyFront]

No. This is an innately pro-abortion argument pretending at being neutral, unless you are full anarcho-sociopath who believes the government should have no say over a parent murdering their baby. You've implicitly assumed when personhood happened, then snuck in a pro-choice conclusion.

Being pro-choice and pro-abortion are not the same thing unless you're a deluded far-right extremist

It's funny how authoritatively people will make claims about the attitudes of 'evangelicals' on specific subjects.

You almost might as well make decisive claims about 'protestants.' There's certainly some core things anyone who is an 'evangelical' will believe in, but there's a massive suite of differences in other areas, such as regard towards the present-day nation of Israel.

Any claim that 'evangelicals' believe in some bizarre form of 'jewish superiority' is nothing more less than exposing ignorance of what the evangelical sub-culture is actually like.

I'm neither evangelical nor Christian but if I could add my 2 cents there is usually a difference between the people who consider themselves evangelical and the people who have been classified as evangelical by non-evangelicals

 

[King Arts]

It's funny how authoritatively people will make claims about the attitudes of 'evangelicals' on specific subjects.

You almost might as well make decisive claims about 'protestants.' There's certainly some core things anyone who is an 'evangelical' will believe in, but there's a massive suite of differences in other areas, such as regard towards the present-day nation of Israel.

Any claim that 'evangelicals' believe in some bizarre form of 'jewish superiority' is nothing more less than exposing ignorance of what the evangelical sub-culture is actually like.

I mean it's funny how when I provide proof you will deflect. If I show a high ranking prominent Evangelical Protestant engaging in this heresy you'll deflect and say "Oh no us Protestants don't have a hiereachy you can't judge us off this bad apple, because there is no leader!" And if I show a local grassroots church you can claim "That is just one instance you can't tar the whole movement based on this group of bad apples engaging in heresy!"
Here is the evidence by the way.

John Hagee: No Need for Jesus

Wow. Check out these quotes. ____________________ “There are right now Jewish people on this earth who have a powerful and special relationship with God… They have been chosen by the ‘election of grace’ in which God does what he does without asking man to approve or understand it. Let us put...

www.puritanboard.com

 

[Terthna]

Gotta say, I just love all the cultists going along with this insanity in the comments. Even openly stating that they'd vote for a corpse if it was running as a Democrat, because they're the good guys; and there is nothing neither you nor I could say to disabuse them of that delusion.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Gotta say, I just love all the cultists going along with this insanity in the comments. Even openly stating that they'd vote for a corpse if it was running as a Democrat, because they're the good guys; and there is nothing neither you nor I could say to disabuse them of that delusion.

Holy shit, they really cannot be concise or brief, can they?