First COVID, now this? (Potential Leak at Chinese Nuclear Power Plant)

[DarthOne]

TBH submarines are less useful for that particular job than all the other ships, so at least they got their priorities right.

...a thought just occurred to me; how much would it cost to build, say a few World War 2/Early Cold War-style Diesel-submarines?

• emphasis on style, I'm not saying build reproductions, just take the basic design and upgrade the technology for stuff like electronics, motors and so on. These aren't going to fight modern navies, so you don't need all the bells and whistles on modern submarines either.

If only because the idea of them taking out intruding Chinese fishing ships with deck guns amuses me.

 

[gral]

Argentina had the best navy in South America at one point but never really recovered from getting their teeth kicked in by the Royal Navy in the Falklands War. Neither of their Submarines work anymore (both went offline in 2020 due to lack of budget for maintenance) and they're down to four destroyers backed by about twenty assorted corvettes and PT boats. Pretty much their entire navy is dedicated to protecting their fisheries at this point, Argentina catches less than 1% of the fish from their own waters with China taking about 75% and the rest going to other countries poaching them.

They have scrapped together the resources to buy 4 Ocean Patrol Vessels from France, 2 of those have already been delivered(the second one was delivered last month). This shows their priorities at the moment.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Also a chunk of their fishing fleet is not an ordinary private or state owned fishing fleet in the same way other countries have them, but a state controlled paramilitary organization doing way more than fishing.

Records Expose China’s Maritime Militia at Whitsun Reef

Beijing claims they are fishing vessels. The data shows otherwise.

foreignpolicy.com

China’s Hidden Navy

The evidence shows that supposed fishing boats around contested islands are part of an extensive maritime militia.

foreignpolicy.com

The Pentagon And Japan Just Exposed A Secretive Chinese Naval Militia

China is pursuing asymmetric means to reach its goals in Asia.

nationalinterest.org

The concept of the naval trawler is pretty old.
Royal Navy had lots of them in WW2.

But China is doing is downright evil.
At least RN trawlers were used to fight Nazis.
Chinese trawlers are being used to destroy the environment and spread the "red plague" around the world.

 

[BlackDragon98]

...a thought just occurred to me; how much would it cost to build, say a few World War 2/Early Cold War-style Diesel-submarines?

• emphasis on style, I'm not saying build reproductions, just take the basic design and upgrade the technology for stuff like electronics, motors and so on. These aren't going to fight modern navies, so you don't need all the bells and whistles on modern submarines either.

If only because the idea of them taking out intruding Chinese fishing ships with deck guns amuses me.

Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

US subs sank a lot of Japanese fishing boats during the Pacific campaign.

Problem is, the deck gun is almost impossible to aim and it doesn't come with any sort of fire control because it's outside the sub. Makes it very hard to sink anything.

And I'm pretty sure those ChiCom trawlers pack some firepower of their own. Maybe 14.5mm HMGs? Or RPGs? Maybe even a light (~30mm) autocannon?

At this point, I'd just go for the good old Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer. Upgrade the thing to use modern bombs and then go ham on those filthy Maoists.

Or maybe just unretire all those AC-130s? Easy kills on the water with a 105mm cannon.

 

[Zachowon]

Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

US subs sank a lot of Japanese fishing boats during the Pacific campaign.

Problem is, the deck gun is almost impossible to aim and it doesn't come with any sort of fire control because it's outside the sub. Makes it very hard to sink anything.

And I'm pretty sure those ChiCom trawlers pack some firepower of their own. Maybe 14.5mm HMGs? Or RPGs? Maybe even a light (~30mm) autocannon?

At this point, I'd just go for the good old Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer. Upgrade the thing to use modern bombs and then go ham on those filthy Maoists.

Or maybe just unretire all those AC-130s? Easy kills on the water with a 105mm cannon.

We still use AC-130s. The Stinger II and Ghost Rider vairents

 

[BlackDragon98]

We still use AC-130s. The Stinger II and Ghost Rider vairents

That's what around 50 AC-130s?

Definitely not enough to patrol the Pacific and Atlantic, plus Alaskan waters.

And these variants are the expensive high tech ones.

A small South American or African country can't afford that!

An older variant with less high tech makes much more sense.

Or maybe just go with the AC-47 Spooky?

 

[Robovski]

Some navies still run diesel subs (the things you remember from playing Harpoon, like Sweden has them) List of submarine classes in service - Wikipedia they have their advantages. And submarines as part of a fleet means you can never be totally sure that the waters are empty.

 

[bintananth]

Some navies still run diesel subs (the things you remember from playing Harpoon, like Sweden has them) List of submarine classes in service - Wikipedia they have their advantages. And submarines as part of a fleet means you can never be totally sure that the waters are empty.

Most countries can't afford nuclear submarines.

A diesel sub, all else being equal, is at a major disadvantege when compared to a nuclear sub. However, diesel subs can do something nuclear subs can't do: go completely silent.

The captain of a diesel sub can shut everything down and just sit there. The captain of a nuclear sub can't because nuclear reactors require constant cooling even when they're turned off.

 

[Cherico]

Most countries can't afford nuclear submarines.

A diesel sub, all else being equal, is at a major disadvantege when compared to a nuclear sub. However, diesel subs can do something nuclear subs can't do: go completely silent.

The captain of a diesel sub can shut everything down and just sit there. The captain of a nuclear sub can't because nuclear reactors require constant cooling even when they're turned off.

Its better to have disel subs then no subs at all.

 

[Captain X]

Argentina had the best navy in South America at one point but never really recovered from getting their teeth kicked in by the Royal Navy in the Falklands War. Neither of their Submarines work anymore (both went offline in 2020 due to lack of budget for maintenance) and they're down to four destroyers backed by about twenty assorted corvettes and PT boats. Pretty much their entire navy is dedicated to protecting their fisheries at this point, Argentina catches less than 1% of the fish from their own waters with China taking about 75% and the rest going to other countries poaching them.

I'm guessing the corvettes and PT boats would be enough to deal with the interloping fishing vessels.

 

[DarthOne]

I'm guessing the corvettes and PT boats would be enough to deal with the interloping fishing vessels.

Would PT boats have the off-shore range?

Plus torpedoes would be sort of over kills. I’d personally be more for gunboats.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Would PT boats have the off-shore range?

Plus torpedoes would be sort of over kills. I’d personally be more for gunboats.

Most of their PT Boats and Corvettes have a range of 4-7000km. The Intrépida class is a bit short at only 3000. They also operate a Durance class tanker/tender they picked up from the French to extend range as needed.

The issue really isn't firepower, Argentina has a more than sufficient navy to take down fishing boats, but they're up against China and keenly aware that if they get too successful, China will either send in Q-Ships or possible entire naval groups and squash Argentina like a bug. Now traditionally, a foreign power invading a South American nation would get the US to pull out its big stick, but Argentina now believes the media will chase those sweet Chinabux and proclaim how China's having to put down these racist Nazi third-world savages who are murdering honest Chinese Fisherman near the Galapagos Islands, which ancient Chinese Maps show are historic Chinese fishing grounds anyway.

 

[Bacle]

Too bad the Argies decided to waste their military on the Falklands.

The Belgrano sailing into gun range of those 'fishing vessels' might have made China think a little harder about if fucking with SA fisheries.

 

[gral]

Too bad the Argies decided to waste their military on the Falklands.

The Belgrano sailing into gun range of those 'fishing vessels' might have made China think a little harder about if fucking with SA fisheries.

It wasn't the Falklands which wasted the Argentinian military, it was the post-military regime governments who did it.

 

[Navarro]

What is it with communism and industrial accidents? I mean I should know the answer, but this is kinda getting to be the same old story.

Shitty totalitarian political system means no one wants to be the bearer of bad news to the Great Leader and since you have to work around the law just to survive, nobody cares about regulations. And the workers don't take pride or put effort in what they do since they're all de facto slaves, so everything they make is shit.

All totalitarian states are like this.

 

[Navarro]

As far as I can tell the CCP is an improvement compared to what came before. There's no guarantee that whatever might replace it will be better.

KMT was working fairly decently during the Nanjing Decade before the Japanese came in and ruined everything, then the commies (who had spent the whole war hiding out in the mountains to marshal their strength) came in and defeated the exhausted Republican forces.

The problem for the Qing was that they took power as the West was able to finally make contact in sufficient numbers, and then when they did arrive, it didn't become clear until far too late that these newcomers were, while fairly impressed with China, saw them as an equal rather than the Middle Kingdom its neighbors had always seen.

Another issue was that the whole basis of the Chinese political system was the idea that the Emperor was the literal ruler of the world and foreign powers were only fit to approach him as tributaries offering submission. Meanwhile the Empire was hilariously behind the times technologically due to its strict isolationism, so that arrogance combined with their own weakness led to disaster for the country.

 

[bintananth]

Another issue was that the whole basis of the Chinese political system was the idea that the Emperor was the literal ruler of the world and foreign powers were only fit to approach him as tributaries offering submission.

The Japanese and Vietnamese weren't having any of that nonsense.

The Japanese once slapped the Chinese Emperor in the face with a diplomatic message calling him the ruler of the land where the Sun sets. I'm not sure how many times the Chinese have tried and failed to conquer Vietnam.

 

[gral]

The Japanese once slapped the Chinese Emperor in the face with a diplomatic message calling him the ruler of the land where the Sun sets.

Prince Shotoku, IIRC. 'The Ruler of the Land of the Rising Sun greets the Ruler of the Land of the Setting Sun...', which meant the Japanese were claiming their Emperor was at the same level as the Son of Heaven(and therefore, they weren't fucking paying tribute or doing any of the things the Chinese expected of their client states).

 

[BlackDragon98]

Most of their PT Boats and Corvettes have a range of 4-7000km. The Intrépida class is a bit short at only 3000. They also operate a Durance class tanker/tender they picked up from the French to extend range as needed.

The issue really isn't firepower, Argentina has a more than sufficient navy to take down fishing boats, but they're up against China and keenly aware that if they get too successful, China will either send in Q-Ships or possible entire naval groups and squash Argentina like a bug. Now traditionally, a foreign power invading a South American nation would get the US to pull out its big stick, but Argentina now believes the media will chase those sweet Chinabux and proclaim how China's having to put down these racist Nazi third-world savages who are murdering honest Chinese Fisherman near the Galapagos Islands, which ancient Chinese Maps show are historic Chinese fishing grounds anyway.

I guess the Argentineans are regretting they didn't take up Hitler's offer back in 1945.

Secret Nazi base in Argentina with super U-Boots and UFOs, supposedly.

The descendants of those Nazi exiles would be more than glad to rise up once more and beat some commie shits over the head.

Now all the Argentineans can do is just watch as the ChiComs plunder their fishing grounds.

Tsk, tsk. No foresight, those southern fools.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I'm not sure how many times the Chinese have tried and failed to conquer Vietnam.

The most recent attempt was in 1979.

Sino-Vietnamese War - Wikipedia

Really bad idea to attack a country right after it's military has gotten significant amounts of experience fighting a large foreign invader.

Not to mention that China supplied Vietnam with lots of military gear during 'Nam. Really stupid idea in general.