But without both Poznan and Danzig!
Federalized Austria Survives First World War
- Thread starter Aldarion
- Start date
But without both Poznan and Danzig!
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
Petar I was fairly sane (unlike his sons) but the problem was that the his powers were rather limited, the people who brought him to throne retained the reins of power, so there was struggle for power between military leadership and Pašič (with Pašić coming out worse by 1914), with king being more or less an onlooker. King only gained political strength after Serbia was lost and Serbian army became 100% reliant on allied help, which hinged on him and Pašić, giving the two enough political power to finally execute Apis and his circle of imbeciles.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
OK, thanks.
FWIW, apparently Czech historian and politician Frantisek Palacky (1798-1876) advocated a federal system for Austria-Hungary, as this 1908 book mentions here:
Racial problems in Hungary, by Scotus Viator [pseud.] with illustrations and a map
babel.hathitrust.org
sillygoose
Well-known member
He didn't really give up on it, he never supported it. It had been looked over by his staff as an option, but rejected it since it would simply make the existing dualist system even more grid-locked as yet another interest group would block funding for projects to get their way in political disputes. Plus Hungary would object as it would water down their power and screw up their own internal political balance by removing allied ethnic groups (Croats) from the Hungarian Parliament.
Re: Hungary: The US of GA plan would primarily be a bad deal for Hungary because it would strip Hungary of a lot of its population, industries, and natural resources. AFAIK, Hungary really struggled for this reason in the immediate post-WWI years in real life. The Croat population in Hungary was not that large; the oppressed Romanians were much greater in number.
Sergeant Foley
Well-known member
Translation: Everyone gets dragged into World War I
Several responses in another thread
There is a proposal by Prince Sixtus, Duke of Parma, brother-in-law to the Emperor of Austria and Belgian soldier, to broker a separate peace
, and stipulated that they would give the lands only to Italy, and not to Serbia and Romania, because they would not take anything, only to return to the pre-war borders.
The Germans would be furious, but they could not conquer Austria because it was mountainous
The Bulgarians and the Ottomans would sign a separate peace because German support was completely cut off
(Bulgaria will keep the borders before the war because Greece is neutral, but the Ottomans will lose their Arab lands and open the straits to the Russians, but the chances of Turkey remaining a monarchy after the war are much greater without the Turkish National War and the Greco-Turkish War)
Russia, if this happens, will benefit greatly and may remain in the war, and this means a successful Kersinsky offensive, by which the Russian Provisional Government will survive, and not the October Revolution.
Germany was badly damaged, their lines collapsed without the support of their allies, and the British and Russians broke free from their fronts and directed their forces towards the Western Front.
Reforms will happen more easily because the war is over, the economy is improving, no one likes the Hungarians, and if they rebel they will fail
Poland would become a constitutional monarchy with Archduke Karl Stefan as King Charles I
(He's Polish, the Poles love him, he speaks Polish)
More kingdoms will remain or be established
As the Kingdom of Lithuania under the Duke of Urach and the Baltic Duchy will remain under the Duke of Mecklenburg
Together with the Kingdom of Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire (reduced to the borders of present-day Turkey)
There will be the Kingdom of Ukraine led by Vasily von Habsburg (Archduke Wilhelm, son of Karl Stefan)
We might see a Carlist Kingdom of Spain (Franco will court Austria by appointing the Duke of Parma as King of Spain)
There is a proposal by Prince Sixtus, Duke of Parma, brother-in-law to the Emperor of Austria and Belgian soldier, to broker a separate peace
, and stipulated that they would give the lands only to Italy, and not to Serbia and Romania, because they would not take anything, only to return to the pre-war borders.
The Germans would be furious, but they could not conquer Austria because it was mountainous
The Bulgarians and the Ottomans would sign a separate peace because German support was completely cut off
(Bulgaria will keep the borders before the war because Greece is neutral, but the Ottomans will lose their Arab lands and open the straits to the Russians, but the chances of Turkey remaining a monarchy after the war are much greater without the Turkish National War and the Greco-Turkish War)
Russia, if this happens, will benefit greatly and may remain in the war, and this means a successful Kersinsky offensive, by which the Russian Provisional Government will survive, and not the October Revolution.
Germany was badly damaged, their lines collapsed without the support of their allies, and the British and Russians broke free from their fronts and directed their forces towards the Western Front.
Reforms will happen more easily because the war is over, the economy is improving, no one likes the Hungarians, and if they rebel they will fail
Poland would become a constitutional monarchy with Archduke Karl Stefan as King Charles I
(He's Polish, the Poles love him, he speaks Polish)
More kingdoms will remain or be established
As the Kingdom of Lithuania under the Duke of Urach and the Baltic Duchy will remain under the Duke of Mecklenburg
Together with the Kingdom of Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire (reduced to the borders of present-day Turkey)
There will be the Kingdom of Ukraine led by Vasily von Habsburg (Archduke Wilhelm, son of Karl Stefan)
We might see a Carlist Kingdom of Spain (Franco will court Austria by appointing the Duke of Parma as King of Spain)
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
OK, that sounds just awesome.
Buba
A total creep
A wish list I mostly approve off
But what "Franco"? This is 1917 we are talking about ...
A wish list I mostly approve off
But what "Franco"? This is 1917 we are talking about ...
I am talking about the international repercussions of Austria-Hungary remaining
Sergeant Foley
Well-known member
Would this butterfly Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini?
Skallagrim
Well-known member
These points are all plausible enough, and hint at a better world.
This seems more unlikely, since Russia would still claim Poland, and Russia would be on the winning side. Austria installing their own monarch in Poland would be an unacceptable move. It's plausible that there might be an independent Poland, and not impossible that a Habsburg might get the throne (presumably in exchange for Austria giving up Galicia-Lodomeria)... but I wouldn't treat it as a given in this scenario.
Not as independent states, certainly! Russia will hold these regions.
Ukraine will remain part of Russia.
It's not impossible, but with a POD this early, it's jus a guess. It's in no way certain that Franco even becomes a prominent figure in this ATL.
If the Sixtus proposal goes through in 1917, the October Revolution is presumably averted, and Russia is "merely" transformed into a constitutional monarchy, instead. Russia's allies will push for Nicholas II to be removed, but will use the same pressure to avert more radical plans from going through.
If Italy gets more of a "win" out of the war, Mussolini is probably averted, too.
Germany is extra screwed, though. So I really doubt things will go well, there. However... without the USSR as the boogeyman, there's a decent chance that Germany goes communist instead. Still-- there's a good chance that we see a very unpleasant situation in Germany. The war is over sooner, but they feel more betrayed, and the burden of reparations is exclusively shoved onto Germany, here.
Sergeant Foley
Well-known member
Basically Nicholas II and his family still get grisly killed regardless?
Skallagrim
Well-known member
No, I think Nicholas II gets deposed, he and his closest family probably carted off to exile in France or the UK, and some relative gets installed on the throne as a constitutional monarch with very limited powers.
which was the original plan, just by the time February happened, things had radicalized way way too much for anything less than a Depostion of the monarchy and eventual trial of Nicky to be considered legit.
This is not happening, except for maybe Ukraine. The Polish Nationlalists could live with a Habsburg monarch if they had to, but well they don’t, and no way in hell is Germany going to Give there erstwhile ally a foot in the door by appointing Charles King. Same with Lithuania (albeit more tensions because of the Ethnic Germans already there). Ukraine I could see it, but only as a way to run to Austria to beg their protection against big bad Russia.
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The Duke of Urach was chosen by the Lithuanians
The wills of Germany are a personal union
No one will care what Germany thinks if they lose the war
Archduke Karl Stefan would be accepted by the Polish nationalists because he was Polish enough (his children lived the rest of their lives in Poland) and Austria would cede Galicia to them so there are benefits.
The victory of Italy, if it avoided Mussolini, did not mean avoiding civil war
Germany becoming communist will not happen because the Freikorps, the Russians, the Austrians and the French will suppress them
The Russian provisional government abandoned Poland and declared its independence
I agree that Lithuania and the Baltic countries will remain Russian, because Brest-Litovsk will not happen
The survival of the Ottoman Empire meant recognition of the Armenian Genocide (not the expulsion of the Greeks).
No Ataturk and the survival of the Qajar family in Iran, no Pahlavi coup means no 1979 revolution, along with the fading of coups in the Middle East
It will not mean any national division, because Greece is neutral
Ending the war a year early means the US is neutral, so the Democrats win in 1921
That true,Kiereński agreed to Independent Poland - but not Ukraine or Baltic states.
So,Kingdom of Poland,but not others.And,Russia would be not genocided by soviets - but remain Republic,not Monarchy.
At least for a time.
Greeks would remain neutral,so no fighting turks here.
P.S Merry Christmas !