Election 2020 Election Fraud: Let's face it, this year will be a shitshow

[Wargamer08]

Ratcliffe didn't say the laptop was "real". He said there wasn't evidence of it being a Russian operation. Which there wouldn't be. Even if you believe it was a Russian op, instead of just something made up. That doesn't mean it is actually Hunter Biden's laptop. The idea Biden took his computer to a shop in Delaware and abandoned it is pretty improbable. For one thing, he mostly doesn't live in Delaware. If they'd stuck to the misspelled letters trying to make it look Joe Biden got his son a cushy job it might have been believable,but it wouldn't have swung any significant number of votes. (If nepotism bothers you, you won't be voting for Trump).

Several news agencies requested to see the original files or hard drives and were not allowed to do so, preventing any forensic testing from being done to confirm their origins. Something that makes no sense if it were legitimate. And the laptop materialized out of the ether, just in time to try to influence the election.

When the corruption angle completely didn't catch on and they decided to add the QAnon, Biden eats babies nonsense they jumped the shark from plausible smear that nobody cared about to something no one not already sold on pizzagate would believe. Amusingly, if it were real, everyone involved in pushing this narrative would be in serious legal trouble. You can't hold onto, fail to report, or duplicate child pornography as a private citizen. If this weren't completely made up, Giuliani would be getting debarred at a bare minimum.

But it is made up. And I think almost everyone knows it, even if they pretend to the contrary. If the people pretending to believe it really cared about sexual abuse, they'd have raised hell when it became clear Trump hung out with Jeffery Epstein. Or when he bragged about assaulting women. Or when his ex-wife described him sexually assaulting her. Or when he went into the dressing rooms of a teen beauty pageant. Or any number of other acts of clear disrespect for women's and girls' bodily autonomy.

This is unfair. The fact is, these narratives where some last minute legal chicanery means Trump wins because he is the incumbent are just slightly better than sovereign citizens complaining about gold fringed flags. The idea of a contingent election isn't some wild legal theory. it has happened multiple times and is the constitutionally prescribed response to the EC failing to grant a majority of electoral votes to any candidate for executive office. Any twisting comes from a desperate attempt to spin a narrative where Trump has a chance to win despite the election results.

It won't happen. Trump lost the election, so his candidates for elector won't be casting votes. But if it did happen, a vote in the House would be the result.

Deciding to listen to a bunch of grifters like Giuliani and Powell because they tell you what you want to hear is a choice you can make, but it isn't going to do anything but feed you reassurances and try to get you to donate money. The idea that anybody posting here is trying to "legitimize" anything is absurd. The opinion of people on sci-fi message boards isn't going to determine the outcome of the election. Nothing you or I say will make one iota of difference. The voters did that when they selected Biden.

I know it isn't pleasant to think someone you think is awful won an election. I was certainly unhappy with Trump's electoral college victory in 2016. (Joe Biden isn't the man you think he is. I wish he were. I'd love if he were the radical Marxist crusader for trans rights the far right believes he is. But he is just a moderate, about where Obama and Bush were politically.) I understand not wanting to face that. But that is the reality. Trump sold a narrative where everyone outside of himself and his supporters were corrupt. It was a lie. Trump wasn't fighting a grand battle. There is no secret cabal of devil worshippers running Washington D.C. After his term, things will continue like they did during his term, with possibly a few more civil rights protections for LGBT people and maybe a better healthcare bill if we're lucky.

I don't want you to feel bad. But you are setting yourself up for a disappointment, and a lot of people are getting scammed into giving bad people their money because they believe it will help. And both of those things suck. I don't expect you to take this post well, but I promise it is meant well.

I disagree with you on so many points, l can’t list them all. We have diametrically opposed views of what’s going down. The fact that you disagree with myself and others is fine and a welcome change from endless “cope” but your continued smug superior condescension over media talking points is tiresome at best. I’m not going to get into refuting those statements. My energy for that is well spent and would be pointless anyway. If you cannot see how the media has down played, ignored and lied about the ongoing fraud, well nothing I say will convince you.

All the same, you don’t believe any election fraud happened. Great, you’ve made your case. Stated all your totally honest concerns for the poor ignorant souls being taken in by grifters. This is the thread for 2020 US election fraud though. People are going to be posting about that.

 

[Rocinante]

I mean, I think @mesonoxian is being incredibly polite on saying that you people are "setting yourself up for a disappointment." My much more blunt take is that I am not going to be in the slightest surprised if someone here ends up on the news in six months.

Ehh, I've been saying it's over for weeks.

Doesn't mean I don't think considerable amounts of fraud happened.

 

[mesonoxian]

All the same, you don’t believe any election fraud happened. Great, you’ve made your case. Stated all your totally honest concerns for the poor ignorant souls being taken in by grifters. This is the thread for 2020 US election fraud though. People are going to be posting about that.

I think what Giuliani and Powell are doing more than qualifies as election fraud.

He also shows he doesn't understand at all the people who he's addressing when he says 'Biden is more like Bush and Obama, he's not as bad as you think he is', because for the ones he's addressing, this is already a very damning comparison - remember who Trump was/is a reaction to!

You say this, but then we have this response just a bit earlier:

What your missing is that, if Biden become president, it'll be for simply criticizing regressive leftist ideology in public.

Somebody who thinks Biden is going to be some sort of totalitarian overlord who destroys all political speech protections. That is someone who needs to realize they have accepted an entirely false narrative about who the president elect is. He is a bog standard politician, not the Beast of Revelation in human form. If you think Trump was a great man and Biden is a return to the status quo, I disagree, but that isn't really something I think is worth arguing against. But there are people who are scared because they think Biden is going to lock them in prison or let antifa steal old people's medicine or something. And that does need to be addressed.

Obama and Bush were definitely scum bags and war criminals. I think you are all spot on to despise them. I think your mistake is in believing the differences between them and Trump are more than skin deep.

I want to get rid of Trump because his pandering hurts people. Stuff like locking up refugee children and down playing covid cost human lives. But I am under no illusion Biden is different from him in any deeper sense. Voting for Biden is strictly a matter of trying to reduce the harm he causes.

Anyway, sorry if I come off as condescending. I tried to do a few passes to reduce that as much as I could, but there just aren't a lot of ways to try to sound nonhostile while telling people they are wrong about something important. It wouldn't sound condescending if I screamed a bunch of insults, but I don't want to insult people. I'm an old dude, and I got caught up in weird political nonsense when I was younger and I hate to see it happen to anybody else.

 

[gral]

Doesn't mean I don't think considerable amounts of fraud happened.

The US system of voting and counting votes is extremely loose; it's highly unlikely that there isn't large amounts of fraud at local level throughout the country. Was that local fraud enough to overturn the election? Maybe. Do I think that there is something fishy with Dominion? Yes. Does Trump have a valid case? My impression is he thinks he has enough of a case to fight for it. Whether it is or not, we may never know.

 

[Wargamer08]

I think what Giuliani and Powell are doing more than qualifies as election fraud.

You say this, but then we have this response just a bit earlier:

Somebody who thinks Biden is going to be some sort of totalitarian overlord who destroys all political speech protections. That is someone who needs to realize they have accepted an entirely false narrative about who the president elect is. He is a bog standard politician, not the Beast of Revelation in human form. If you think Trump was a great man and Biden is a return to the status quo, I disagree, but that isn't really something I think is worth arguing against. But there are people who are scared because they think Biden is going to lock them in prison or let antifa steal old people's medicine or something. And that does need to be addressed.

Obama and Bush were definitely scum bags and war criminals. I think you are all spot on to despise them. I think your mistake is in believing the differences between them and Trump are more than skin deep.

I want to get rid of Trump because his pandering hurts people. Stuff like locking up refugee children and down playing covid cost human lives. But I am under no illusion Biden is different from him in any deeper sense. Voting for Biden is strictly a matter of trying to reduce the harm he causes.

Anyway, sorry if I come off as condescending. I tried to do a few passes to reduce that as much as I could, but there just aren't a lot of ways to try to sound nonhostile while telling people they are wrong about something important. It wouldn't sound condescending if I screamed a bunch of insults, but I don't want to insult people. I'm an old dude, and I got caught up in weird political nonsense when I was younger and I hate to see it happen to anybody else.

See you seem like a decent enough guy, but then you bring up the kids in cages thing. That was a program that was started and mostly ran under Obama. Even the photos used were from before Trump’s election.

This is what I’m talking about when I say that you come across as condescending. Your expressed position is at odds with the blatant media narrative you’re parroting.

 

[Vaermina]

The courts have already decided you guy's keep refusing to acknowledge that. The Trump administration is down 39-1 in term of the cases it has won. There's a world of difference between 600 votes in one state, and having to overturn multi-thousand vote margins in at least 2/3 states.

You might want to try listing the actual number of Trump Administration cases instead of that 39 to 1 number which includes a large number of non-Trump Administration cases....

 

[Zachowon]

You might want to try listing the actual number of Trump Administration cases instead of that 39 to 1 number which includes a large number of non-Trump Administration cases....

Ir seems they think "IT IS VOTER FRAUD CASE THEREFORE TRUMPS!" and do not further research and only use MSM to help them.

 

[gral]

Somebody who thinks Biden is going to be some sort of totalitarian overlord who destroys all political speech protections. That is someone who needs to realize they have accepted an entirely false narrative about who the president elect is. He is a bog standard politician, not the Beast of Revelation in human form. If you think Trump was a great man and Biden is a return to the status quo, I disagree, but that isn't really something I think is worth arguing against. But there are people who are scared because they think Biden is going to lock them in prison or let antifa steal old people's medicine or something. And that does need to be addressed.

Do you remember how progressives reacted to the election of Trump? Did it matter that people said that no, there wouldn't be people hunting black, or gay people on the streets? It may be easy to say now that those fears were unfounded, but a lot of people who are saying 'Oh, it won't be bad, you're silly' were the same ones saying the US elected Timur the Lame, and the collection of the piles of heads would begin the following day.

As for whether the conservative fears are silly. Consider we have media and big tech companies doing censorship of one side of the political discourse(and it's not the progressive one). You have elected officials talking about what effectively are proscription lists. I'd say there is ground for some fears. Right now, it is a bit of exaggeration(right now there is a limit on how egregious people can be in persecuting their political opponents). But it eventually won't be. How soon until it won't be? Hell if I know. But there are a lot of high-profile people pushing for it, and it will happen.

Obama and Bush were definitely scum bags and war criminals. I think you are all spot on to despise them. I think your mistake is in believing the differences between them and Trump are more than skin deep.

I want to get rid of Trump because his pandering hurts people. Stuff like locking up refugee children and down playing covid cost human lives. But I am under no illusion Biden is different from him in any deeper sense. Voting for Biden is strictly a matter of trying to reduce the harm he causes.

'I can't spare this man, he fights!'

THIS is what makes people follow Trump. Many conservatives thought Republicans only wanted to lose gracefully and get awarded a few crumbs on the political table. Trump was the first guy in a while who made them think there was someone fighting for him. You call this pandering. Conservatives think this is exactly what they were waiting for a while. It may be strictly because Trump saw an opportunity to get elected. Trump's followers don't care. They don't care that he doesn't believe in much of what they believe in either. As long as he is seen as fighting for much/most of what they want(and gets some results), he gets a pass.

Someone else has already replied on the matter of the cages. As for downplaying COVID, so did Pelosi and Cuomo. Until it was convenient to say COVID was the new Black Plague. But people are selectively forgetful on that, and only remember their opponents downplayed COVID, not that their allies also did it. Oh well, such is life.

BTW, what kind of harm reduction is voting for Biden if you don't see him as being too different from Trump? The only thing that will change is who gets harmed.

Anyway, sorry if I come off as condescending. I tried to do a few passes to reduce that as much as I could, but there just aren't a lot of ways to try to sound nonhostile while telling people they are wrong about something important. It wouldn't sound condescending if I screamed a bunch of insults, but I don't want to insult people. I'm an old dude, and I got caught up in weird political nonsense when I was younger and I hate to see it happen to anybody else.

No offense taken. Like I said, I don't know you nearly enough to make a guess whether that was intentional or not(and your answer indicates it not to be). Whatever it's worth, I don't mean to offend anyone here with this post as well. But at the same time, I think the best that we'll be able to accomplish here is agree to disagree.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

How is that bad for asking for that? Because they said wrong state?
So would you he able to file such a large lawsuit in record time and have ir perfect?

I agreed with you when you dismissed proofreading errors as pointless nickpicking given the rushed nature of the suit, but sourcing errors are much more substantiative than that.

You might want to try listing the actual number of Trump Administration cases instead of that 39 to 1 number which includes a large number of non-Trump Administration cases....

I don't think "official/unofficial" is a useful scorekeeping metric here; I'm pretty sure we'd all count "unofficial" cases on these matters if they reached factual rulings or placed definitive evidence on the record.

How about we all just be a bit patient and wait for the Courts to decide? That goes for some of our more Democrat leaning members too. Don't set yourselves up for disappointment if history rhymes.

I've literally said I'm waiting to see the court rulings and/or the actual evidence placed on the record as opposed to simply the claims made by one side or the other.

 

[mesonoxian]

See you seem like a decent enough guy, but then you bring up the kids in cages thing. That was a program that was started and mostly ran under Obama. Even the photos used were from before Trump’s election.

This is what I’m talking about when I say that you come across as condescending. Your expressed position is at odds with the blatant media narrative you’re parroting.

Obama did indeed build the facilities. But it was Trump's specific policy to block the normal avenues for refugees to enter the country, and to make a point of separating minor children from their parents as opposed to housing children who arrived unaccompanied there. Not that Obama's policies towards immigrants and refugees were great. They weren't at all.

Do you remember how progressives reacted to the election of Trump? Did it matter that people said that no, there wouldn't be people hunting black, or gay people on the streets? It may be easy to say now that those fears were unfounded, but a lot of people who are saying 'Oh, it won't be bad, you're silly' were the same ones saying the US elected Timur the Lame, and the collection of the piles of heads would begin the following day.

As for whether the conservative fears are silly. Consider we have media and big tech companies doing censorship of one side of the political discourse(and it's not the progressive one). You have elected officials talking about what effectively are proscription lists. I'd say there is ground for some fears. Right now, it is a bit of exaggeration(right now there is a limit on how egregious people can be in persecuting their political opponents). But it eventually won't be. How soon until it won't be? Hell if I know. But there are a lot of high-profile people pushing for it, and it will happen.



'I can't spare this man, he fights!'

THIS is what makes people follow Trump. Many conservatives thought Republicans only wanted to lose gracefully and get awarded a few crumbs on the political table. Trump was the first guy in a while who made them think there was someone fighting for him. You call this pandering. Conservatives think this is exactly what they were waiting for a while. It may be strictly because Trump saw an opportunity to get elected. Trump's followers don't care. They don't care that he doesn't believe in much of what they believe in either. As long as he is seen as fighting for much/most of what they want(and gets some results), he gets a pass.

Someone else has already replied on the matter of the cages. As for downplaying COVID, so did Pelosi and Cuomo. Until it was convenient to say COVID was the new Black Plague. But people are selectively forgetful on that, and only remember their opponents downplayed COVID, not that their allies also did it. Oh well, such is life.

BTW, what kind of harm reduction is voting for Biden if you don't see him as being too different from Trump? The only thing that will change is who gets harmed.



No offense taken. Like I said, I don't know you nearly enough to make a guess whether that was intentional or not(and your answer indicates it not to be). Whatever it's worth, I don't mean to offend anyone here with this post as well. But at the same time, I think the best that we'll be able to accomplish here is agree to disagree.

There was definitely exaggeration when Trump took office, but I don't think those fears were wholly unfounded. I don't think the Charlottesville rally would have taken place without the election of Trump, for example. Though actual bloodshed has been mercifully rare so far, the increased activity and access of white supremacists and overtly fascist groups has been alarming. And the abuses on the border are very much the sort of things people were afraid of.

I don't think the administrations will be different on a fundamental level. Partly because congress and the state governments aren't going to be changed, partly because both of them are economic liberals, and partly because Biden is really a very moderate Democrat.

I do think there will be real differences for some people, though, and in just about all those cases I think Biden will do better. I'm thinking of things like the situation with refugees, where the probable result is going to be a return to Obama era policies. Not perfect but better than what we have now. I hope that Biden will stand against attempts to cut benefits like Medicaid, SNAP, the ACA credit, and other programs that people need to live. And I think Biden will do at least somewhat better of a job on LGBT rights than Trump will. All of those strike me as very good reasons to vote for Biden, even though he's an utterly flaccid centrist.

I don't think any group will be substantially harmed by a Biden presidency. At the most extreme I could see some enforcement of equality of access laws that might anger conservative religious people, but I don't think they will be harmed in the way a trans person losing access to medical coverage for their treatment would be. (I'm thinking here of situations like the baker who didn't want to make a wedding cake for a gay couple.) And (in my wildest dreams) Biden might tighten restrictions on corporations with regards to pollution or workers rights. But again, that isn't the same kind of harm as having your SNAP benefits cut.

 

[GoldRanger]

I don't think "official/unofficial" is a useful scorekeeping metric here; I'm pretty sure we'd all count "unofficial" cases on these matters if they reached factual rulings or placed definitive evidence on the record.

Some posters are using these numbers to delegitimize Trump's legal team effort, specifically. But any suits that are not Trump's are irrelevant, and cannot be used to reach any conclusions about Trump's team.

 

[Zachowon]

Some posters are using these numbers to delegitimize Trump's legal team effort, specifically. But any suits that are not Trump's are irrelevant, and cannot be used to reach any conclusions about Trump's team.

But then how can they delegitimize trump!

 

[Zachowon]

Double post but
This happend at the MI hearing.

 

[Vaermina]

Double post but
This happend at the MI hearing.

Oof, talk about a smackdown.

That guy's lucky he didn't get kicked out of the hearing for trying to defame Giuliani like that.

 

[Zachowon]

Oof, talk about a smackdown.

That guy's lucky he didn't get kicked out of the hearing for trying to defame Giuliani like that.

Rudy threw off the kid gloves for that guy. He called him out. Like DAMN, the comments are also worth it

 

[Zachowon]

Here is Lin Wood being very very VERY patriotic and a great hypeman

 

[Rocinante]

Here is Lin Wood being very very VERY patriotic and a great hypeman

Perhaps he should spend less time at rallies and more time on proof reading and sourcing court cases properly?

Sure this gets people amped up, but that doesn't matter. The election is over. It's about court cases now.

 

[Zachowon]

Perhaps he should spend less time at rallies and more time on proof reading and sourcing court cases properly?

Sure this gets people amped up, but that doesn't matter. The election is over. It's about court cases now.

I am pretty sure they have a team working on going over those when they are not themselves going over.

 

[GoldRanger]

It's the 3rd of December. It's been exactly a month. I want to see concrete, tangible results, not pretty speeches.

 

[Terthna]

Oof, talk about a smackdown.

That guy's lucky he didn't get kicked out of the hearing for trying to defame Giuliani like that.

Lucky? The only reason he had the balls to say what he said, is because he knew there would be no lasting consequences for saying it; and, lo and behold, he was proven correct in the end. The only thing he didn't count on, was Giuliani not just sitting there and taking it, as most of his previous targets likely did.