Dystopian Europe

[Cherico]

I will never understand this mentality. One would think that Europe would have learned the folly of appeasement already, but apparently they need another lesson.

The world wars basically destroyed european civilization it scarred them very deeply and current europe is a reaction against all of that. The contient such as it is has rebuilt itself its culture on the lie that they evolved past history that their too enlightened for war and conflict.

This is a lie and when this delusion is shattered and it only takes one more big war to do this, it will utterly shatter europes sense of self and their self esteem.

 

[Jormungandr]

The world wars basically destroyed european civilization it scarred them very deeply and current europe is a reaction against all of that. The contient such as it is has rebuilt itself its culture on the lie that they evolved past history that their too enlightened for war and conflict.

This is a lie and when this delusion is shattered and it only takes one more big war to do this, it will utterly shatter europes sense of self and their self esteem.

Pretty much.

The First World War basically helped to kill Christianity as it had been in Europe -- basically, it boiled down to "if there is a God, why did he let this happen? All this death and destruction?" Many soldiers who came back were broken mentally and physically.

The Second World War came mostly due to fallout from the First -- treating Germany like shit and as the "Big Villain" despite, at the time, it just being another Power that was involved. It allowed the rise of Hitler and his little "Socialist Clique", and the attempts at avoiding another War, such as the appeasements, instead added more water to an already boiling pot.

Then it all "kicked off", the pot boiled over, and the result was the most destructive war in history, not mentioning the goddamn genocides.

The fallout from that led to an ideological war between an already flawed ideology and the West, and that resulted in most actions in Europe being reactions out of fear and an attempt at salvaging something under the masquerade of "building back better" (in the case of the eventual EU).

Right now, Europe thinks itself as being "beyond all that past barbarism", and they've built it up as part of their self-image/self-esteem.

Russia invading Ukraine basically helped crack that facade.

The Pandemic, where European nations basically said "lol no fuck you we're saving ourselves" to their neighbours asking for help? Another crack.

The EU becoming more authoritarian over time? Another crack that they refuse to admit exists.

Europe being flooded with fucking illegal migrants and savages bringing their shit over here, and the fear of being called "barbarians" again stopping people from actually reacting to these invasions? Crack.

The same mistakes, different causes.

 

[Agent23]

Isn't Justine Castro's Cucknadistan trying to do the same, and didn't some places in the USA ban or try and ban the burning of the retro-style 2nd Judaism reboot book and the untouchable sexual minorities flag?

And I think parts of the US kinds tried to ban burning the US flag to some degree, then got hit by the 1st amendment or something.

Anyway, there are 3 solutions to this:
1) Only the sacred cow(flag, religious texts, other national identification )of the local people is sacred, migrants learn to live with it.
2) All religious texts, including the book of Xenu, the pastafsrian recipe book and Das Capital are sacred and can't be burnt.
3) No one gets any special protection for his preferred religious tomes, so suck it up everyone who is not a libertarian.

I am mostly inclined towards 1 and 3.

 

[ATP]

I will never understand this mentality. One would think that Europe would have learned the folly of appeasement already, but apparently they need another lesson.

Hey,Poland is in Europe,too!
To be frank,if it continuee,we would be Europe,rest would be caliphate.

And,@Jormungandr , all german elites considered existence of Poland as attack against german Honour,and made alliance with soviets in 1922.
If they continue ti rule,they would destroy Poland together with soviets,sure - but the same soviets would take them as next meal,with rest of Europe.

Hitler madness saved half of Europe from that.From our point of viev,notching changed,but french,italian and most germans should be grateful to him.

 

[DarthOne]

Hey,Poland is in Europe,too!
To be frank,if it continuee,we would be Europe,rest would be caliphate.

And,@Jormungandr , all german elites considered existence of Poland as attack against german Honour,and made alliance with soviets in 1922.
If they continue ti rule,they would destroy Poland together with soviets,sure - but the same soviets would take them as next meal,with rest of Europe.

Hitler madness saved half of Europe from that.From our point of viev,notching changed,but french,italian and most germans should be grateful to him.

Here we go again…

 

[ATP]

Here we go again…

Rapallo 1922,Berlin 1926.Stupid germans hated poland so much,that they do not think,what happen,when they would have common border with them after destroing Poland.

And why soviet crest was on Earth,not russia map......

 

[Agent23]

Rapallo 1922,Berlin 1926.Stupid germans hated poland so much,that they do not think,what happen,when they would have common border with them after destroing Poland.

And why soviet crest was on Earth,not russia map......

They are the reason the USSR was a thing to begin with.

If not for them the only place a Soviet crest would have existed would have been on the banners of an increasingly marginal group of far-left nutjobs.

 

[DarthOne]

They are the reason the USSR was a thing to begin with.

If not for them the only place a Soviet crest would have existed would have been on the banners of an increasingly marginal group of far-left nutjobs.

About that…

What If America Never Entered World War I?

The biq question of the day.

nationalinterest.org

American entry in World War I helped produce another terrible consequence: the November 1917 Bolshevik coup in Russia. The country had been deteriorating ever since Czar Nicholas II entered the war in 1914. It led to millions of Russian casualties, drained the country's finances, generated devastating inflation, caused pervasive shortages, and discredited the government and the army.

France and Britain had to know they were playing with fire when they pressured the Russians to stay in the war so that German forces would continue to be tied up on the Eastern Front. The last thing France and Britain wanted was for Russia to make a separate peace with Germany and thereby enable the Germans to transfer forces to the Western Front. Allied pressure assured that the deterioration of Russia would continue or even accelerate.

Following the spontaneous revolution and abdication of the czar in March 1917, Wilson authorized David Francis, his ambassador to Russia, to offer the Provisional Government $325 million of credits — equivalent to perhaps $3.9 billion today — if Russia stayed in the war. The Provisional Government was broke, and it accepted Wilson's terms: "No fight, no loans."

Wilson was oblivious to the fact that ordinary Russians had nothing to gain from whatever happened on the Western Front, which was his sole concern. The Bolsheviks exploited deteriorating conditions brought on or aggravated by the war. They were the only ones on the Russian political scene who advocated withdrawal. Lenin's slogan was "Peace, land, and bread."

The diplomat and historian George F. Kennan observed, "it may be questioned whether the United States government, in company with other western Allies, did not actually hasten and facilitate the failure of the Provisional Government by insisting that Russia should continue the war effort, and by making this demand the criterion for its support. In asking the leaders of the Provisional Government simultaneously to consolidate their political power and to revive and continue participation in the war, the Allies were asking the impossible."

What might have happened in Russia if the United States had stayed out of World War I? Russia almost certainly would have quit the war earlier, with the Russian Army still intact and capable of defending the Provisional Government from a Bolshevik coup.

TLDR:
Without the US’s loans of additional money to keep Russia in the War following the abdication of the Czar, the Provisonal government would not have continued the war, thus giving the Bolsheviks a path to power after their failures to obtain it.

 

[ATP]

About that…

What If America Never Entered World War I?

The biq question of the day.

nationalinterest.org

TLDR:
Without the US’s loans of additional money to keep Russia in the War following the abdication of the Czar, the Provisonal government would not have continued the war, thus giving the Bolsheviks a path to power after their failures to obtain it.

Sadly,only partially true.
Lenin could win only becouse kierenski was idiot and let bolszewik agitators come openly to units.If he arrested them from the start,it would be no problem.
Also,keeping Russia in war do not mean offensives there - and idiot kierenski tried that,giving Lenin popularity.
All russians need was to keep front without attacking,which could be done.
If they let part of soldiers go home,and executed Lenin and his supporters,there would be no revolution.

So,USA do not lead to revolution,but Kierenski stupidity - yes.

P.S If tsar send Brusiłow in 1916 against Turkey,he would break them and open Dardaneles for Allied help.There would be no revolution,too.
Even then,if there was still tsar guard in Petersburg,there would be no problems - but after Brusiłow offensive ended in failure ,they were send on german fortified lines and died in 3 days.What was named later as guard was green soldiers with few traumatized survivors.

Even then,calvary guard could save the day - but was send from capitol.

Even then,there would be no revolution,if bread was send to workers,which could be done - but,tsar officials stopped it to provoke uprising which they planned to break with guard - but,since they were green soldiers,not veterans,they joined people.

Not mention,that if Samsonow was supported by other tsar general,he would defeat germans in 1914 and take East Prussia.


So,do not blame on USA russian stupidity - or sabotage.Many russian officials were,in fact,germans,and supported secretly Germany.

 

[DarthOne]

Sadly,only partially true.
Lenin could win only becouse kierenski was idiot and let bolszewik agitators come openly to units.If he arrested them from the start,it would be no problem.
Also,keeping Russia in war do not mean offensives there - and idiot kierenski tried that,giving Lenin popularity.
All russians need was to keep front without attacking,which could be done.
If they let part of soldiers go home,and executed Lenin and his supporters,there would be no revolution.

So,USA do not lead to revolution,but Kierenski stupidity - yes.

P.S If tsar send Brusiłow in 1916 against Turkey,he would break them and open Dardaneles for Allied help.There would be no revolution,too.
Even then,if there was still tsar guard in Petersburg,there would be no problems - but after Brusiłow offensive ended in failure ,they were send on german fortified lines and died in 3 days.What was named later as guard was green soldiers with few traumatized survivors.

Even then,calvary guard could save the day - but was send from capitol.

Even then,there would be no revolution,if bread was send to workers,which could be done - but,tsar officials stopped it to provoke uprising which they planned to break with guard - but,since they were green soldiers,not veterans,they joined people.

Not mention,that if Samsonow was supported by other tsar general,he would defeat germans in 1914 and take East Prussia.


So,do not blame on USA russian stupidity - or sabotage.Many russian officials were,in fact,germans,and supported secretly Germany.

You mostly had me until the last paragraph.

A lot of Americans were German, heck a lot of British and French had/have German blood in them, even the British Royal family.

 

[ATP]

You mostly had me until the last paragraph.

A lot of Americans were German, heck a lot of British and French had/have German blood in them, even the British Royal family.

Indeed - but,they do not helped germans.
When russian officers did so.Polish aristocrat Hipolit Korwin-Milewski leaved memories/very bitter about everytching,including free Poland after 1918/ in which he described russian officers with german heritage as somebody who do not fight for real,becouse they do not want to win.
Sadly,you need learn polish to read it.

 

[Agent23]

Indeed - but,they do not helped germans.
When russian officers did so.Polish aristocrat Hipolit Korwin-Milewski leaved memories/very bitter about everytching,including free Poland after 1918/ in which he described russian officers with german heritage as somebody who do not fight for real,becouse they do not want to win.
Sadly,you need learn polish to read it.

Wasn't that guy von Richstchoffen aka the Red Baron actually born in Russia?

 

[ATP]

Wasn't that guy von Richstchoffen aka the Red Baron actually born in Russia?

Possible.Russia was partially run by german aristocrats,that is why they do not want to hurt Germany seriously.

 

[Agent23]

Possible.Russia was partially run by german aristocrats,that is why they do not want to hurt Germany seriously.

Like your favorite Tsarina and her favorite horse. And her nutjob prussiaphiliac ex-husband.

 

[ATP]

Like your favorite Tsarina and her favorite horse. And her nutjob prussiaphiliac ex-husband.

Yep.Dynasty of Romanow died then and there,becouse whoever child was Catherina son he was certainly bastard,not her husband - but,for unknown reasons,those german bastards are considered by everybody as Romanows.Strange.

 

[Agent23]

Yep.Dynasty of Romanow died then and there,becouse whoever child was Catherina son he was certainly bastard,not her husband - but,for unknown reasons,those german bastards are considered by everybody as Romanows.Strange.

Well, royal inbreeding is certainly an interesting thing, I'd wager they wouldn't have been that far from the OG romanovs around the time of Nicky II.
Considering how deranged her husband was, I think it might have been an improvement.

And the Romanovs, real or imagined, were the most successful dynasty in Europe, massively increasing their holdings each year.

Since to quote one historian. "By that time(WWI), the royal bloodlines of Europe were resembling a web more than a tree, and rapidly turning into a single line."

 

[Typhonis]

Since to quote one historian. "By that time(WWI), the royal bloodlines of Europe were resembling a web more than a tree, and rapidly turning into a single line."

So the Royalty of Europe could be hit with redneck jokes?

If you think a family reunion is a great place to find a husband or wife....

If your family tree does not branch...

 

[Agent23]

So the Royalty of Europe could be hit with redneck jokes?

If you think a family reunion is a great place to find a husband or wife....

If your family tree does not branch...

Lots of the planter elites from the Murikhan south were actually second sons of nobles and disgraded military, which in those days meant decent amounts of fallen noble families and bastard sons.

 

[Cherico]

Lots of the planter elites from the Murikhan south were actually second sons of nobles and disgraded military, which in those days meant decent amounts of fallen noble families and bastard sons.

Just like cats have never forgotten they were worshiped in ancient egypt those family have never forgotten that and will tell you all about it if asked and many times if not asked.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Wasn't that guy von Richstchoffen aka the Red Baron actually born in Russia?

No, he was born in Silesia a current part of Poland actually.

Even then this is getting into derail territory.