Religion Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh?

[ATP]

Yeah, you know I really don't want to find myself somehow on ATP's side here but I feel I need to point out, that's not the only way Κύριος is used in the Bible. It is used as a respectful form of masculine address somewhat analogous to how we'd use "Sir," not just as an address for Yahweh. That said it is used for Yahweh frequently as well so it's not definitive.

It's used as a form of address to a human Magistrate in Matthew 27:63.
The famous Samaritan woman at the well addresses Jesus this way, well before she even realizes he's a prophet, much less the Messiah.
Greeks use the term as a polite address for Philip in John 12:21.
A Roman Officer addresses Paul with the term at Acts 16:30.

More details on the various forms of Kurios and how it's used in many scriptures here:

Strong's Greek: 2962. κύριος (kurios) -- lord, master

biblehub.com

There is no my side here,only Truth.And you are on side of Truth with me.Sorry,that made you feel bad.

Here,another proof :

Romans 5:1-2


Peace and Hope
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] boast in the hope of the glory of God.

See- God is God,Jesus is Lord.

 

[ATP]

Fair, it doesn't always mean "Yahweh". However, some examples of its use that ATP quoted appear to use the word in a way a Jew would only apply to Yahweh, such as Peter referring to Jesus as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36.

But I don't think ATP understands this nuance either way, as he just completely evaded discussion of the word and its use. And referring to Jesus as "Lord" certainly isn't contradictory of believing Jesus to be God, as he tried suggesting at one point.

You need deliver proof that NT is naming Jesus as God,which mean that HE must be named as GOD,not Lord in a way used to Jahwe.


Romans 5:15-20


15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

See - here God is God,and Jesus is human,second Adam who cleared mistake of first Adam.
Of course,i knew that HE is GOD - but not from NT.

 

[ATP]

That is true, the meaning is determined by the context.
And also, the people in the gospels were probably talking in Aramaic, so we don't even have their exact words.

But when the Apostle Paul says that Jesus has the Name that is above every other name, and at that Name every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord... it obviously means something far stronger than a simple term of polite respect.

Of course - problem is,that before Agryppa he claimed that Jesus is Messiah.Certainly not from cowardice,becouse he was sure that he is going to die for Faith.

Messiah is Lord,too.

Here,another:

Romans 6:4-9


4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

See - God is God, Jesus was raised by Him,and if we follow JESUS,we would be raised,too.

 

[Stargazer]

Nope,it is nicean credo and dogmats.I am not Luder after all,or one of protestant rulers.Or leader of one of 40.000 protestant sects.
Here :

Bull. When I actually quoted the Nicene Creed, you made up crap that isn't in the creed, like Yahweh being the Father specifically, and you dismissed what the creed says about God speaking through the Old Testament prophets. You are acting like your own pope.

You need deliver proof that NT is naming Jesus as God,which mean that HE must be named as GOD,not Lord in a way used to Jahwe.

I threadmarked the post where I provided quotes from the New Testament that referred to Jesus as God, since you seem to suffer from short term memory loss.

 

[Scottty]

@ATP It's good that you are actually reading the Pauline Epistles there. But when arguing from them, you seem to be making the same invalid argument over and over, with every passage you quote.
Paul does not mention Jesus' Deity all the time when expounding the Gospel to people. This is not evidence that he did not believe it. We don't see him always telling everyone a lot of other things we know he believed.

Here's a passage you might not be so familiar with:

Romans 8:9-11
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[King Arts]

Maybe you need to go and learn your Tradition properly before you tub-thump about it to others!
God is one Being, in three Persons. YHWH, the Old Testament covenant name of God, applies equally to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Can you show me where the trinity is in the Bible?

A couple things to note here. First, "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god." There is no god besides Yahweh. So, If Yahweh is only one of three persons in the Trinity, what does that make Jesus and the Holy Spirit? They are God, but they're also "beside" Yahweh? That's incompatible with Scripture.

"I, I am the LORD, besides me there is no Savior." If Jesus isn't Yahweh, Jesus can't be the Savior, according to Scripture. Only Yahweh is Savior.

"I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself." If Jesus isn't Yahweh, he can't be the creator of the heavens and the earth. Only Yahweh did that.

So, question for @ATP: Do you believe these to be true statements about Yahweh? If so, arguing that Jesus is God but not Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, is utterly nonsensical. And I'm pretty sure it's not the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, either. You are utterly clueless. I challenge you to cite one Christian source, just one, that describes Yahweh as a person of the Trinity.

And if you don't believe those are true statements about Yahweh, then I don't know what God you worship. It's not the same God that I worship, because I worship Yahweh, the God spoken of in the Old Testament. You have a different religion than me.

I think ATP is just bad at English I see him misspell Mahmud, and Stalin as Machomad, and Sralin. He probably got Yahweh confused with the father.

 

[ATP]

Nothing left to say really. Good to know for future reference that @ATP is a complete troll and moron with no interest in good faith discussion and debate.

Great argument.Add,that i also did Holocaust with bare hands.

Here,what Paul thought:

Romans 6:22-23

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here God is God,Jesus is Lord - BUT,at least we could imply that HE is GOD,becouse our eternal life would be in Jesus.
You have 0,5 point.

 

[ATP]

Yeah - repeats himself over and over, ignores responses, disregards the Bible whenever it suits him, pretends he cannot understand it...

Nope,my friend.Only check every place when Apostles writen about Jesus and God.So far do not found even one

Here,another:


Romans 7:4

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

God is God who raised Jesus,and Jesus is somebody to whom we belong so we could bear fruits for God.
Certainly not God here.

 

[ATP]

Not that it's going to get through ATP's thick skull. But I just want to dispel any notion that his claims are representative even of Catholic tradition.

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Scripture:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (vatican.va)

God acted through the authors of the Scriptures so they would write what he wanted. The books of Scripture teach truth from God without error. And that includes the whole canon of the Old and New Testaments.

Oh, and what's this?...

IV. Lord

446 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the ineffable Hebrew name YHWH, by which God revealed himself to Moses,59 is rendered as Kyrios, "Lord". From then on, "Lord" becomes the more usual name by which to indicate the divinity of Israel's God. the New Testament uses this full sense of the title "Lord" both for the Father and - what is new - for Jesus, who is thereby recognized as God Himself.60

447 Jesus ascribes this title to himself in a veiled way when he disputes with the Pharisees about the meaning of Psalm 110, but also in an explicit way when he addresses his apostles.61 Throughout his public life, he demonstrated his divine sovereignty by works of power over nature, illnesses, demons, death and sin.

Well would you look at that. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says exactly what we've been saying, that the name "YHWH" or "Yahweh" is expressed as the title "Kyrios" or "Lord" in the New Testament, and the title is used in the full sense for both the Father AND for Jesus, and that is thereby how Jesus is recognized as God.

Also, contrary to how @ATP keeps repeating "Jesus never said he is God", the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that Jesus explicitly ascribed the title to himself when addressing his apostles. And it cites verses from the New Testament to that point.

So, @ATP . Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church wrong to state all these things?

1. - tread is about NT,not our papist heresies against good protestants.
2. - Yes,God inspired authors of NT.There is still no place in books written by Apostles when they descriped Jesus as God openly.
3 - Jesus ascribed title in veiled way.I always knew that - but you claim,that HE or Apostles claimed it openly.
Show me that,please.

Here:

Romans 7:25

25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.

God deliver Paul through Jesus Christ our Lord.Nothing about Jesus being God.

 

[ATP]

I didn't know this was a game for points.

Not mentioning something is not the same as denying it.
The most you can prove from those passages is that Jesus' Deity was not considered an essential part of the basic Gospel message, not something everyone needed to be informed of right up-front.
Which is not the same thing at all as saying that it was not something Peter or Paul believed.

points are good way to check who was right.

And when Apostles was enlinghtened by Holy Spirit,they spoken about Jesus being Messiah,not God.The same Paul before jews and Agrippa later.
Since they arleady risked their lives,they would say that Jesus is God if they beliwed so.

And,if JESUS BEING GOD is not essential part of Gospel,then what is?
And we do not knew what they belived,but what they said.
Here,another citate from Paul:


Romans 8:8-17


8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[c] And by him we cry, “Abba,[d] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Again,God is God and Jesus is Jesus - BUT, IT IS IMPLIED THAT SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE SAME AS SPIRIT OF jESUS.
You have 0,5 point.

 

[ATP]

It says it so plainly that the Jews immediately wanted to stone Him for blasphemy. Beyond that, you are splitting hairs.

They stone him for telling them that not only they killed their Messiah,but it was all for naught becouse God raised Jesus.
And Jesus is on Right Hand of God.Fitting place for Messiah.

Here,another:

Romans 8:31-39



More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[a]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here - Jesus is son of God,raised by God,and is interceding for us.And is at the right hand of God.Again,HE is our Lord.
But - not God.

 

[Scottty]

Can you show me where the trinity is in the Bible?

We could start with the passage from Romans I just quoted. What do you make of it?

 

[Scottty]

And,if JESUS BEING GOD is not essential part of Gospel,then what is?

Given all the passages you just quoted, you should be able to answer that.

8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[c] And by him we cry, “Abba,[d] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Again,God is God and Jesus is Jesus - BUT, IT IS IMPLIED THAT SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE SAME AS SPIRIT OF jESUS.
You have 0,5 point.

I just quoted that same passage earlier - and you actually do see it there, even. But you won't admit it.

 

[King Arts]

Romans 8:9-11
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

This is what you were talking about? Again Bible can be hard to read, especially just one verse without contex but I'll try.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

It means you are more than just material like atheists think. If you have the spirit of God in you you are saved and are eternal.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you are not one of God's flock and God won't save you.

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Umm same as above, it repeats?

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you

It repeats again you have to be one of Jesus's disciples to get saved by God. It does not say what the trinity is, or that it is the truth.

 

[Stargazer]

1. - tread is about NT,not our papist heresies against good protestants.
2. - Yes,God inspired authors of NT.There is still no place in books written by Apostles when they descriped Jesus as God openly.
3 - Jesus ascribed title in veiled way.I always knew that - but you claim,that HE or Apostles claimed it openly.
Show me that,please.

It's about both the New Testament and the Old Testament, since the question is does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. So it's important to establish just what the New Testament and Old Testament are, according to your own tradition, since you seem to be confused about that.

Jesus is openly described as God in 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13. Those are books of the New Testament. Whether the apostles actually wrote those books isn't the question of the thread.

Actually it's not just me claiming Jesus claimed it openly, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does. You're free to disagree with the Catechism, but then you have to stop saying you believe in the tradition of the Catholic Church, because you clearly don't.

 

[ATP]

You do realize that the Son is identified in Hebrews as Yahweh, right? Refer back to my first post.

Then why Paul simply do not named Jesus as God? but,i could help you.
Here:

Romans 9:5-8


5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
God’s Sovereign Choice
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Here,at least,Paul name Jesus as God.You have 1 point.

 

[ATP]

I have come to the conclusion, based on his last few posts, that @ATP is actually illiterate, and is simply incapable of reading.

@ATP , what is the New Testament, what works comprise the New Testament? Is it not the following list of writings:

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
James
Hebrews
Jude
Revelation

Thanks for your kind worlds,my rriend.

I simply do not offend your protestant feelings by using Tradition.part of Paul letters and one of eter are fakes,but since they were written by catholics after Apostles death,i have no problems with them.
You,on the other hand,could use only Apostles works,so i would not use them.

Here:

Romans 10:1-4


10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Here,God is God,and Jesus is culmination of Law,whatsever it means.Certainly not God.

 

[ATP]

Bull. When I actually quoted the Nicene Creed, you made up crap that isn't in the creed, like Yahweh being the Father specifically, and you dismissed what the creed says about God speaking through the Old Testament prophets. You are acting like your own pope.



I threadmarked the post where I provided quotes from the New Testament that referred to Jesus as God, since you seem to suffer from short term memory loss.

1.Of course ,that God is speaking through prophets.Problem is - they never said openly that Messiah would be God,althought sometimes impied that.About NT - almost always Apostles speak about Jesus as Messiah,not God.
You need them to name HIM as GOD at least in 50% of cases.

2.Implied that,so far i found one such place when it is said openly.In other places,including most important sermons,Jesus is Messiah.
I count how many times it happened.

Here,another:

Romans 10:9-13

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[b]

Jesus is Lors raised by God,and we would be saved in his name.Still - not God,but let say,that it imply so.
You have 0,5 point.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

This maybe off topic here, but do we need to do a Catholics vs Protestants thunderdome esque thread I can't help but think there is a lot of stuff going on underneath besides this question alone.

 

[Stargazer]

Then why Paul simply do not named Jesus as God?

Paul doesn't need to refer to Jesus as God every time he mentions Jesus in order for him to believe that. You don't call me a human every time you mention me, I guess that means you don't think I'm human.

Thanks for your kind worlds,my rriend.

I simply do not offend your protestant feelings by using Tradition.part of Paul letters and one of eter are fakes,but since they were written by catholics after Apostles death,i have no problems with them.
You,on the other hand,could use only Apostles works,so i would not use them.

I didn't ask "what you would use", and I certainly don't care about you "offending my Protestant feelings". I asked you what is the New Testament, and what writings comprise the New Testament. Can you answer those questions? If you can't or won't say what the New Testament even is, then you have no basis for saying what the New Testament does or doesn't teach and you have no business answering the question of the thread, does the New Testament teach that Jesus is God. Just like how leftists have no business talking about "women's rights" if they can't actually answer the question "what is a woman?"

1.Of course ,that God is speaking through prophets.Problem is - they never said openly that Messiah would be God,althought sometimes impied that.About NT - almost always Apostles speak about Jesus as Messiah,not God.
You need them to name HIM as GOD at least in 50% of cases.

2.Implied that,so far i found one such place when it is said openly.In other places,including most important sermons,Jesus is Messiah.
I count how many times it happened.

I reject your arbitrary and absurd standard of proof, and so does the tradition you claim to believe in. To quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures"

If it's recorded in Sacred Scripture, it is without error. It is truth that God wished to be taught. So if something is taught even once in Scripture, that makes it true. No further standard needs to be met.

I don't care about your "count", and neither does Catholic tradition.

This maybe off topic here, but do we need to do a Catholics vs Protestants thunderdome esque thread I can't help but think there is a lot of stuff going on underneath besides this question alone.

It's really not a Catholic vs Protestant issue. At this point I'm using Catholic sources to support my claims.