Do you support Russia's or Ukraine's claim to Crimea and the Donbass?

[WolfBear]

I specifically excluded the option of independence for Crimea and the Donbass in order to make it an exclusively Russia vs. Ukraine poll. Independence didn't and still doesn't receive huge support in either Crimea or the Donbass, so Yeah.

Personally, I would have voted "Russia for both Crimea and Donbass," if that is what the people there genuinely want, before the start of the 2022 Russo-Ukrainian War, but now I will probably vote for "Ukraine for both Crimea and Donbass, but only after their people become de-Nazified & un-brainwashed" since I think that aggressor states should lose their claims to prior territories that they have recently acquired through conquest. This is why Germany lost its claim to the Sudetenland after the end of World War II even though the West willingly gave the Sudetenland to Nazi Germany back in 1938. That said, though, I'd only want Ukraine to take Crimea and Donbass back after both they and Russia itself have been thoroughly de-Nazified and un-brainwashed from all Putinist and Russian nationalist propaganda.

 

[LordsFire]

Any illusion that the Donetsk or Luhansk were anything but Russian-forged puppet states has been removed by this war.

And the Russians have treated them like shit as well.

 

[WolfBear]

Any illusion that the Donetsk or Luhansk were anything but Russian-forged puppet states has been removed by this war.

And the Russians have treated them like shit as well.

Well, they simply obey whatever orders Russia gives them since they owe their entire existence to Russia.

But Yeah, the people of the Donbass certainly are treated like shit. Even in the separatist-controlled parts, which actually have a military draft, unlike Russia proper.

 

[Sailor.X]

I support Ukraine in both. What Russia is doing is no different than what the English tried to do to my people the Santee during the Yemassee War. Such actions were wrong then and they are wrong now.

 

[Arch Dornan]

I support them sorting out their business without blowing up each other into bloody bits but that's not going to happen.

 

[Zachowon]

They are Ukrainian and Ukraine should do what ever it takes to get them back

 

[Skallagrim]

The separatist regions in the Donbass and the Crimea were both pretty full of ethnic Russians, who enjoyed regional autonomy -- which was then ripped away after the Maidan coup (the constitution was unilaterally torn up by the new regime in Kiev). I strongly believe that this gave the regions in question the right to secede.

It is my belief that, since these regions explicitly called for Russian support, this gave Russia the right to extend such support, in order to ensure the successful secession of these regions. This does not give Russia the right to compel these regions to join Russia. However, I do believe that if given the black-and-white choice "Russia or Ukraine" in 2014, these regions would overwhelmingly vote to join Russia. (Even then, though, none of that would have given Russia the right to claim anything beyond the separatist regions, of course.)



Ideally, in 2014, the separatist regions (in Luhansk and Donetsk, but also Crimea) should have been allowed to peacefully secede, and decide their own fate from that moment on. All in accordance with the right to self-determination, which I hold to be sacred.

Within the hour of this happening, Ukraine should have started the process of joining NATO. This would have prevented a whole lot of senseless misery, and it would have given most people involved what they wanted.

 

[Arch Dornan]

They are Ukrainian and Ukraine should do what ever it takes to get them back

With tensions already heated I forsee ethnic cleansing of ethnic Russians in the separatist regions to get them back if they do manage it.

Such is war.

 

[WolfBear]

The separatist regions in the Donbass and the Crimea were both pretty full of ethnic Russians, who enjoyed regional autonomy -- which was then ripped away after the Maidan coup (the constitution was unilaterally torn up by the new regime in Kiev). I strongly believe that this gave the regions in question the right to secede.

It is my belief that, since these regions explicitly called for Russian support, this gave Russia the right to extend such support, in order to ensure the successful secession of these regions. This does not give Russia the right to compel these regions to join Russia. However, I do believe that if given the black-and-white choice "Russia or Ukraine" in 2014, these regions would overwhelmingly vote to join Russia. (Even then, though, none of that would have given Russia the right to claim anything beyond the separatist regions, of course.)



Ideally, in 2014, the separatist regions (in Luhansk and Donetsk, but also Crimea) should have been allowed to peacefully secede, and decide their own fate from that moment on. All in accordance with the right to self-determination, which I hold to be sacred.

Within the hour of this happening, Ukraine should have started the process of joining NATO. This would have prevented a whole lot of senseless misery, and it would have given most people involved what they wanted.

The Donbass never actually had autonomy within Ukraine to my knowledge, and is there any proof that Crimea's autonomy within Ukraine was revoked or at least planned to be revoked in 2014?

 

[Ricardolindo]

The separatist regions in the Donbass and the Crimea were both pretty full of ethnic Russians, who enjoyed regional autonomy -- which was then ripped away after the Maidan coup (the constitution was unilaterally torn up by the new regime in Kiev). I strongly believe that this gave the regions in question the right to secede.

It is my belief that, since these regions explicitly called for Russian support, this gave Russia the right to extend such support, in order to ensure the successful secession of these regions. This does not give Russia the right to compel these regions to join Russia. However, I do believe that if given the black-and-white choice "Russia or Ukraine" in 2014, these regions would overwhelmingly vote to join Russia. (Even then, though, none of that would have given Russia the right to claim anything beyond the separatist regions, of course.)



Ideally, in 2014, the separatist regions (in Luhansk and Donetsk, but also Crimea) should have been allowed to peacefully secede, and decide their own fate from that moment on. All in accordance with the right to self-determination, which I hold to be sacred.

Within the hour of this happening, Ukraine should have started the process of joining NATO. This would have prevented a whole lot of senseless misery, and it would have given most people involved what they wanted.

I think Crimea would have voted to join Russia in 2014 but I don't think the Donbass would have. Crimea is Russian majority while the Donbass is Ukrainian majority albeit Russified.

 

[Skallagrim]

I think Crimea would have voted to join Russia in 2014 but I don't think the Donbass would have. Crimea is Russian majority while the Donbass is Ukrainian majority albeit Russified.

The whole Donbass region taken altogether would surely vote to stay with Ukraine. But the separatist regions (a considerably smaller area) were actively fighting to secede from Ukraine, so I'm pretty certain they'd never vote to stay with Ukraine.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

I choose the right to self-determination by a paper ballot majority vote handled by international arbitration from a neutral country over either side at the moment, Putin isn't in the right here for being a hell bent for conquest idiot, but Ukraine keeping these regions and throwing away their autonomy while reducing the Russian minority to second class citizens because Putin pulled this crap isn't right either.

 

[Bacle]

I support Ukraine's right to both, even as I acknowledge that the map fuckery the Gorby did redrawing the Russian/Ukraine border late in his tenure is a core part of the issue here, and why the Russian's/Russian minorty had local autnomy till the Maidan went down, or more precisely till MH17 did. Then everything went fucky.

The conflict might have been de-escalated and a honest referendum held, but that airliner going down and Russia 'annexing' Crimea made anything but a forzen conflict impossible. There is no way to get an honest election in the LPR/DRP anymore, the take over of Crimea was a farce of a 'gun-point election'.

As well, because Putin is the one who chose to drive an armored column through Chernobyl, then have ignorant conscript givens maps of Chernobyl without labels and/or from before the accident, and is now using a nuclear plant as an artillery base...this level of nuclear terrorism cannot be allowed to continue. Even the North Koreans are not so reckless.

Edit: Whether it think Ukraine will get all the Russian occupied areas back is a different question. I think Ukraine can probably get Crimea back and secure it enough to restore full control, if they blow the Kerch Straight bridge; retaking all of the Donbass...that seems less certain.

 

[WolfBear]

I choose the right to self-determination by a paper ballot majority vote handled by international arbitration from a neutral country over either side at the moment, Putin isn't in the right here for being a hell bent for conquest idiot, but Ukraine keeping these regions and throwing away their autonomy while reducing the Russian minority to second class citizens because Putin pulled this crap isn't right either.

Would you have said that Germany should be allowed to keep the Sudetenland after the end of World War II as well?

 

[WolfBear]

I think Crimea would have voted to join Russia in 2014 but I don't think the Donbass would have. Crimea is Russian majority while the Donbass is Ukrainian majority albeit Russified.

FWIW, most, but not all, polling in Crimea showed a desire to return to Russian rule pre-invasion:

Trump is Factually Right on Crimea

In a recent interview with ABC for which he is now taking flak, Trump said: As usual, Trump is right and cannot be stumped. Above is a list I compiled half a year ago with all the most prominent polls and referendums ever held that directly or indirectly queried Crimeans on their attitudes...

www.unz.com

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Would you have said that Germany should be allowed to keep the Sudetenland after the end of World War II as well?

No. But because of geopolitical reasons, the entire reason the Nazi's acquired the Sudetenland was appeasement so letting them keep it would send the wrong message and since the Czech government wasn't even invited to the discussion the entire legitimacy of it would always be in doubt.

I don't think expelling the Germans from the Sudetenland once the Czech government was established was a morally righteous move either, but I understand the decision given Hitler used the German diaspora as a pretext to attack anything that moved in Europe.

In any case this is getting off topic.

 

[Agent23]

Oh, boy, here we go again!

I support Ukraine in both. What Russia is doing is no different than what the English tried to do to my people the Santee during the Yemassee War. Such actions were wrong then and they are wrong now.

Um, first off Russia is a successor state to this thing called the Kievan Rus, which owned those lands.
Prior to that there was no organized slavic state in the area, there were Greeks, some slavic tribes moving through but not organized into a state, Bolgars and Khazars, basically Turkic tribes.
The east and south of the modern Ukrainian state, which did not exist in this configuration before Lenin and Stalin and the USSR fucking things up, were part of the Russian Empire.
The cossacks that the Ukrainians have some claim to were a mix of runaway polish serfs, runaway Russian serfs, interbreeding with leftover Crimean tatars and some leftover Crimean Bulgars, even the famous "hohol" haircut is probably a copycat of one used by some Mongolo-Tatar group, since those were originally Tengriists and the horse was important to them, so much so that some had a horse's tail as a flag.
Oh, and that golden thingy on their flag, it is a piece of Khazar jewelry!

Most of those places are predominantly culturally Russia and they wanted to get back into Russia since before this whole mess started, with Crimea being its own, independent Republic before Khruschev decided to make it a gift to Ukraine.

 

[Zachowon]

Oh, boy, here we go again!


Um, first off Russia is a successor state to this thing called the Kievan Rus, which owned those lands.
Prior to that there was no organized slavic state in the area, there were Greeks, some slavic tribes moving through but not organized into a state, Bolgars and Khazars, basically Turkic tribes.
The east and south of the modern Ukrainian state, which did not exist in this configuration before Lenin and Stalin and the USSR fucking things up, were part of the Russian Empire.
The cossacks that the Ukrainians have some claim to were a mix of runaway polish serfs, runaway Russian serfs, interbreeding with leftover Crimean tatars and some leftover Crimean Bulgars, even the famous "hohol" haircut is probably a copycat of one used by some Mongolo-Tatar group, since those were originally Tengriists and the horse was important to them, so much so that some had a horse's tail as a flag.
Oh, and that golden thingy on their flag, it is a piece of Khazar jewelry!

Most of those places are predominantly culturally Russia and they wanted to get back into Russia since before this whole mess started, with Crimea being its own, independent Republic before Khruschev decided to make it a gift to Ukraine.

I'm sorry, if they wanted back why did they have to have Russian soldiers in vacation, and not just Russians but Russian Neo Nazi orgs, supporting said thing.

They could have always tried to peacefully break away.
Same with Crimea....

Also, of you wanna go by that route, Alaska is Russian territory.

And Bulgaria is Turkish

 

[Sailor.X]

Oh, boy, here we go again!


Um, first off Russia is a successor state to this thing called the Kievan Rus, which owned those lands.
Prior to that there was no organized slavic state in the area, there were Greeks, some slavic tribes moving through but not organized into a state, Bolgars and Khazars, basically Turkic tribes.
The east and south of the modern Ukrainian state, which did not exist in this configuration before Lenin and Stalin and the USSR fucking things up, were part of the Russian Empire.
The cossacks that the Ukrainians have some claim to were a mix of runaway polish serfs, runaway Russian serfs, interbreeding with leftover Crimean tatars and some leftover Crimean Bulgars, even the famous "hohol" haircut is probably a copycat of one used by some Mongolo-Tatar group, since those were originally Tengriists and the horse was important to them, so much so that some had a horse's tail as a flag.
Oh, and that golden thingy on their flag, it is a piece of Khazar jewelry!

Most of those places are predominantly culturally Russia and they wanted to get back into Russia since before this whole mess started, with Crimea being its own, independent Republic before Khruschev decided to make it a gift to Ukraine.

Uh huh yeah. Horseshit. Ancient claims have no validity in the Modern Era. Only internationally recognized borders are what count.

 

[Zachowon]

If we go by ancient claims, Bulgaria should be owned by Italy, and Russia should be asian