ISOT Dixie's Heart Can Stop The Mind. (2020 Alabama ISOTed to 1861)

[Agent23]

I suspect that 1861 Americans are going to go ballistic in seeing 2020 Alabama: Interracial marriage being not just legal, but more-or-less socially accepted and Alabama also having women's suffrage, legalized sodomy, legalized same-sex marriage, black suffrage, a social safety net, a sizable number of non-white immigrants, the Internet (though how that would be affected by this ISOT, I'm not sure), et cetera. Honestly, I could see an immediate push for a federal marriage amendment in order to criminalize
same-sex marriage in "deviant" Alabama.

How does Alabama stand as to petroleum extraction and rafination? It could be hurting lots in this regard.

On the plus side - Alabama probably is the largest maker of steel in the world. Helps in extending railroads outside its borders. Having railroads in neighbouring States in 5'/1524mm track gauge and very lightly built does not help

How much ex-State resources does the Birmingham steel making centre use? And - more importantly - need.

BTW - the CSA just lost. Expect the ACW to end inside a few weeks. Even if Alabama itself succeeds

Questions:
- do VISA/Mastercard cards work? At ATMs and POS terminals?
- what happens to bank accounts at banks which are branches of ex-State institutions?
- do the Food Stamp cards (I don't remember their name) work?

Most of the web will be gone since the TLDs and everything below would have evaporated, if those get restored, sites that were hosted in datacenters in Alabama might be back, no idea if a TLD is hosted in Alabama, maybe at some university or something.

It will be fairly easy to build a new web atop the Internet, which will continue to function on a local level, with routes going out of Alabama not being present anymore, although you'd also need to create new certificate authorities for the new web services.
The Internet was built to be decentralized and resilient enough to survive all out nuclear war, the web - not so much.


Unless there is some law that says credit card and other banking data must be kept in the state where the card or account is opened, or where the card or account holder resides, well, a lot of people will be utterly and completely fucked.

SWIFT will probably be down, too, telcos will probably be impacted as well, since we are talking about a fragment of a sovereign country, not a separate country the various data protection and data storage regulations that usually apply will have zero benefit.
Paper receipts and statements of deposit might help, but they will have to be verified.
State and local IT systems might also be affected because Cloud.

On the plus side, though, most mortgages and loans will probably evaporate, too.

What type of currency can Alabama use?

I think the greenback did not exist back then, so they will need to trade gold or raw materials or finished goods.

 

[WolfBear]

Bi and libertarian. Also kinky (see my title).

Do you have a preference (as in, men or women)? And what are your kinks?

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Do you have a preference (as in, men or women)? And what are your kinks?

That is a personal question for a PM not here please.

 

[Buba]

I think the greenback did not exist back then, so they will need to trade gold or raw materials or finished goods.

A quick top of mind - at this point in time paper money existed, but it was convertible to gold AND silver. ADDED LATER. There had to be a substantial specie reserve for paper money (25%?).
Alabama could honour UT paper money and coins internally, for a time. Then - if it stays in the USA - it adopts the USD of the time, exchanging UT paper, coins, accounts etc. into 19th century money.
Initially, as you say, Alabama would have to barter for imported goods. Or sell stuff for USD, GBP, Pesos or Francs and use the proceeds for external trade.

 

[WolfBear]

That is a question for a PM not here please.

OK. Anyway, he can respond to me via PM.

 

[nemo1986]

Most of the web will be gone since the TLDs and everything below would have evaporated, if those get restored, sites that were hosted in datacenters in Alabama might be back, no idea if a TLD is hosted in Alabama, maybe at some university or something.

It will be fairly easy to build a new web atop the Internet, which will continue to function on a local level, with routes going out of Alabama not being present anymore, although you'd also need to create new certificate authorities for the new web services.
The Internet was built to be decentralized and resilient enough to survive all out nuclear war, the web - not so much.


Unless there is some law that says credit card and other banking data must be kept in the state where the card or account is opened, or where the card or account holder resides, well, a lot of people will be utterly and completely fucked.

SWIFT will probably be down, too, telcos will probably be impacted as well, since we are talking about a fragment of a sovereign country, not a separate country the various data protection and data storage regulations that usually apply will have zero benefit.
Paper receipts and statements of deposit might help, but they will have to be verified.
State and local IT systems might also be affected because Cloud.

On the plus side, though, most mortgages and loans will probably evaporate, too.

What type of currency can Alabama use?

I think the greenback did not exist back then, so they will need to trade gold or raw materials or finished goods.

The problem is the tech is limited because most, if not all, is made outside the US. Plus you are going to see a downgrade for a while until the industry is rebuilt. Pen and paper is going to make a return.

 

[Agent23]

A quick top of mind - at this point in time paper money existed, but it was convertible to gold AND silver. ADDED LATER. There had to be a substantial specie reserve for paper money (25%?).
Alabama could honour UT paper money and coins internally, for a time. Then - if it stays in the USA - it adopts the USD of the time, exchanging UT paper, coins, accounts etc. into 19th century money.
Initially, as you say, Alabama would have to barter for imported goods. Or sell stuff for USD, GBP, Pesos or Francs and use the proceeds for external trade.

I think external trade was mostly done in gold and to a far lesser degree silver, IIRC.

Question is, do they have any?

Individual people might have decent amounts, since that area is pretty libertarian/survivalist-minded from what I've heard.

They can probably trade guns and ammo.

More importantly, what about food, do they have enough supply and production to feed the entire population?

 

[Agent23]

The problem is the tech is limited because most, if not all, is made outside the US. Plus you are going to see a downgrade for a while until the industry is rebuilt. Pen and paper is going to make a return.

Probably, although it will be extremely hard for some businesses, imagine running a massive superstore purely on pen and paper, for example.

Most of the tech would still be around though, so some forms of electronic payment could be jury-rigged, personal devices will still work, and internet pirates will be everyone's heroes, after farmers, of course.

PCs, smart TVs, various other gadgets will still be usable, somebody will just have to write a few new apps and fix name resolution.

 

[strunkenwhite]

The big thing is that this didn't happen a month later: if it had, many states (including Alabama) would already have seceded, which would have been huge. There's a chance that this basically halts secession.

Who says Jaunuary 1st 1861 was the date they would arrive? That was never in my gameplan...

Shooting from the hip, I'd guess that if Virginia hasn't pulled the trigger, and if this stops it from doing so, the rest will, if not come crawling back, then be dragged quickly and bloodlessly compared to OTL.

If this happens too late to stop a shooting war with the CSA as we know it (minus AL), Alabama's situation is ... interesting. I would guess that they will be very preoccupied trying to preserve/salvage/recreate as much infrastructure as possible, but any incursions should be annihilated in short order thanks to, y'know, highways and modern guns. Thanks, Eisenhower!

That doesn't mean they can't help the Union more directly, though. Radios for everybody. Any 19th century general would kill his own mother for radio. And air reconnaissance.

 

[Buba]

I think external trade was mostly done in gold and to a far lesser degree silver, IIRC.

You remember correctly

Question is, do they have any?

I'd bet good money that not enough

They can probably trade guns and ammo.

Steel!

More importantly, what about food, do they have enough supply and production to feed the entire population?

Good question.
Regardless of self-sufficiency or not, farming (I include raising animals here) will be severely disrupted by loss of suppliers of feed, fertilizer etc. Food rationing might be imposed, together with Martial Law, immediately after the ISOT.

 

[Agent23]

Steel!

Good question.
Regardless of self-sufficiency or not, farming (I include raising animals here) will be severely disrupted by loss of suppliers of feed, fertilizer etc. Food rationing might be imposed, together with Martial Law, immediately after the ISOT.

Synthetic fertilizers weren't a thing until the early 20th century, IIRC, before that they shipped bat guano around.
If Alabama has factories for that stuff, as well as some more modern, non-GMO seeds, then they can make a lot of money and make a lot of farmers very happy.
Stuff like weed rust resistant crops were not discovered before the middle of the XX century, IIRC, as well as other major breakthroughs in agriculture, see Green Revolution - Wikipedia oh, and Ammonia Nitrate is a pretty powerful explosive, too.

 

[Buba]

@Agent23 - true, but there still will be a transition period where supply sources need to be recreated.
In many cases - built from scratch. In some cases this taking years.

 

[Agent23]

@Agent23 - true, but there still will be a transition period where supply sources need to be recreated.
In many cases - built from scratch. In some cases this taking years.

Non-GMO seeds can spread pretty rapidly, IMHO.

What about their immediate food needs, are there any emergency stockpiles of canned beans in case of wars and other emergencies?

 

[Buba]

I expect that most of the livestock will have to be slaughtered sooner than later due to lack of out-of-State feed.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I expect that most of the livestock will have to be slaughtered sooner than later due to lack of out-of-State feed.

Unfortunately possible, but with an extra couple centuries of breeding, their cattle are going to be lightyears beyond anything alive Downtime in terms of meat quality, digestive efficiency, and probably temperament as well (this could be a moderate problem as modern cattle aren't remotely as good at fighting off, say, a cougar as DT cattle and cougars and bears are going to be abundant). It'd be far better for them to drive their cattle to neighboring states and set up ranches in less-dense areas in order to preserve those genes.

 

[Buba]

Maybe I am chanelling Europe - but AFAIK the UT livestock raised in industrial farm-factories will not survive open sky ranches.
As an EFL person in livestock I include chickens, turkeys, pigs, cattle, sheep etc. (not sure if this is corect English usage) - hence YMMV depending upon species in question. Meat cattle maybe OK (and also may vary by breed), battery chickens - probably not OK.
I agree that retaining core herds/flocks as to "preserve UT genes" would be top priority.

Is e.g. cattle in 1860 Georgia or Mississippi much exposed to bear attacks?

My mind wandered to a "funny place" and I imagined a c.1860 Red Riding Hood - Southern Belle Edition - trudging through the woods to "Granma's house" and armed for bear
Youjo Senki with a BFG ...

 

[Bear Ribs]

Maybe I am chanelling Europe - but AFAIK the UT livestock raised in industrial farm-factories will not survive open sky ranches.
As an EFL person in livestock I include chickens, turkeys, pigs, cattle, sheep etc. (not sure if this is corect English usage) - hence YMMV depending upon species in question. Meat cattle maybe OK (and also may vary by breed), battery chickens - probably not OK.
I agree that retaining core herds/flocks as to "preserve UT genes" would be top priority.

Is e.g. cattle in 1860 Georgia or Mississippi much exposed to bear attacks?

My mind wandered to a "funny place" and I imagined a c.1860 Red Riding Hood - Southern Belle Edition - trudging through the woods to "Granma's house" and armed for bear
Youjo Senki with a BFG ...

All the "Pasture" animals; cattle, sheep, goats, and the like, should be absolutely fine and usually get most of their nutrition under the open sky from grass anyway in the US. Europe is a bit different due to space issues, but in the US there're really vast tracts of land that's not good for anything else so the animals that can live freely on grassy pastures have been kept that way, gaining a minimum amount of weight on expensive grain compared to freely-growing roughage. If anything they're probably going to do better, the grass was significantly thicker and taller then. Predators will be more of a problem as we've bred the horns and aggression out of them so flocks and herds will need a lot more protection.

Hogs won't have any issues in open sky ranches (I've kept many a modern hog that way), though modern hogs will actually be significantly less valuable DT. In that period the hog was the "mortgage lifter" due to lard being used in a wide array of applications as both food and industrial lubricant, so hogs were bred to have as little muscle and as much fat as possible. In the modern-day it's the opposite, lard is somewhat niche while ham and bacon are the valuable parts so we've bred hogs to be significantly less fatty and more meaty. Both sides are going to think the other timeline's hogs are trash.

Battery chickens... I've raised them many a time and yeah, they're in trouble if you take them out of their pens, modern factory meat chickens are remarkably stupid and the ones I've raised rarely want to do anything but sit and eat. They barely need actual cages because two feet between the feed trap and the water bowl is their entire walking plan for the day. I'm not familiar enough with modern turkeys to say but I'd suspect they're similar to chickens.

There's also going to be a lot of family-farm chicken coops built around eggs with Rhode Island Reds, Barred Rocks, and the like that are much more capable of survival than factory chickens and those are still going to have a really significant advantage over their DT equivalents. Two hundred years ago a hen that laid 150 eggs a year was a good layer. A modern chicken that lays any less than 260 gets laughed right out of the henhouse and into the stew pot, and 280+ is considered a good layer.

The good side is that chickens can be bred very rapidly so eating 90% of the entire chicken population won't actually be a problem as long as it's done intelligently to preserve the best genes and not constrain the pool too much, they can easily breed vast numbers from a few survivors.

 

[Buba]

@Bear Ribs
Thank you for the knowledge!

I went back to the OP story posts - I finally understood that the ISOT released two floods - one up the river into eastern Tennessee (Lake Guntersville "collapses" as there is no upstream water holding it back), another downstream into western (Lake Pickwick collapses as there is no dam in Tennessee holding it up). A few thousand dead as a result? The eastern mini-Megaflood could be a killer ...

Any ideas of joining the CSA will be deader than a Norwegian Blue Parrot the moment somebody with a camera gets to a slave market.
It need not be particularly "juicy" e.g. children torn from their mothers' arms, naked women on the auction block, IMO simply seeing people be actually auctioned off will suffice to push support for the CSA into negative numbers ...
I'm fairly sure that the media and 'Bama Govmint will be tripping over themselves to put such footage on "national" TV.

 

[The Unicorn]

I'd bet good money that not enough

How do you figure that? To start with they'll have some gold from various coins and bullion that one way or another belongs to the government, then you have them buying from jewlry stores and private citizens, siezing unclaimed deposit boxes and storage facilities some of which will also have gold, then you get to the question of if they need the gold. While most international trade was done in gold, that's because they didn't have enough aluminum to facilitate trade. I can't find a price for aluminum in 1861, but in 1852 it was 34$/ounce or almost twice the price of gold.
If they do need gold, they can get it from buying copper and seperating the gold and silver (~7% of US gold production comes from refining copper. in 1861 most of that gold is still mixed in with the copper, or even mining in Alabama - pretty much all the commercially viable gold is gone from Alabama today, but if they actually need gold it becomes more viable to mine the various remaining deposits (all of which were thoroughly surveyed).

rationing might be imposed, together with Martial Law, immediately after the ISOT.

There are many things the might ration, but I doubt food will be among them, yes there'll be disruptions, however Alabama produces more food than they eat, and like the rest of the US eats more than they should. between that and sources of food they can trade for, canned and preserved stocks and fishing/whaling I doubt the disruptions will be severe enough to mandate rationing unless they go on for more than a year without any alternatives.

as well as some more modern, non-GMO seeds,

Most modern seeds even before GMO were hybrids which didn't breed true.

 

[Agent23]

Most modern seeds even before GMO were hybrids which didn't breed true.

Yeah, but there might be companies that produce seeds there, or hippies/survivalists that keep stockpiles of quality seeds that breed true, rust resistance will probably be a big thing.