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Science Debate On Evolution Not Being Up For Debate... Debate.

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
If the human reproductive system is present in an incomplete form, there is no possibility of subsequent generations for it to 'evolve' the rest of the way into existence.
...Asexually reproducing vertebrates are a thing, though. We even have clear demonstrations of leftovers of the process in birds, with cases of failed parthenogenic reproduction. And komodo dragons will actively produce a male asexually to resume sexual reproduction.

Even worse, it requires too separate, simultaneous paths of evolution, for the two separate genders, in an extremely compatible way.
Not really, it's just a conveniently-adapted hormone response. To the point that there are genetic XY females from nothing but a failure to respond to testosterone in embryonic development. Take a look at how many other species have the female be the larger and more aggressive, including among mammals.

And if some proto-human already had a reproductive system, then it's not going to 'evolve' another, secondary one. In order for that to happen, you would need thousands of generations of an organism gradually 'evolving' this new, extremely complex and resource-intensive system, which provides no benefit to the organism, while other strains which are not 'evolving' this system do not have that massive strain on their resources, and thus, by the law of natural selection which evolutionists treat as absolutely essential to their ideology, these less-fit organisms should go extinct.
We're talking stuff like yeast here, where cells undergo fusion to reference multiple genomes for repair mechanisms, unlike defenses, resource concentration, and so on. When the diploid condition persists long enough to accrue homogenous-detrimental but heterogenous-beneficial genes like cystic fibrosis it is now beneficial to reduce the monoploid cell to a haploid gamete so that such traits can be ignored to raise the rate of reproductive success.

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."
-Richard Lewontin.
The complained-about materialism is downstream from empiricism. The apparatus of investigation came first, proved itself very useful and philosophical examination found it extremely sound. The supernatural explanations of alchemy and astrology proved so obstinately irreconcilable that empiricists made a point of using "chemistry" and "astronomy" instead to differentiate the pursuit. Then the supernatural turned up jack shit so thoroughly and for so long that empiricists gradually disregarded it.

Has anyone provided proof of God's inexistence? Not even close.
Numerous unfalsifiable claims, disproof is precluded by the axioms.

Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close.
God in the Gaps argument, as previously mentioned ignorance is the starting point so this isn't a sensible refutation any more than God not being a busybody about at least natural disasters.

Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close.
Ultimately assuming that things must have inherent purpose to begin with in which the world we live in is the expectation, rather than allowing for us to be an outlier.

Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough.
No, they demand evidence, and you have none in favor of your position in particular.

Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough.
Is-Ought paradox disconnects ethics from material fact by all known logic.

Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close.
Was religion a force for good in the 16th century? Same answer, the incredibly vast majority of the bloodshed in each is the same underpinning of ideological friction.

Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough.
I can say the same of the Vatican most of the times it found people questioning basically anything about its authority in Western Europe.

Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park.
We spend over a hundred years looking and found literally nothing. How long to you expect us to dig at your unfalsifiable bullshit until you accept that you are ranting about a giant pile of axioms to people making a point of trying to work with as few as possible?

Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.
No, it's not a frivolous exercise, it's you religious people having absolutely nothing to show for yourselves on empirical terms.

You can call me the religious zealot all you like, you can claim that I'm willfully ignorant all you like, but according to leading minds within the atheist movement, it is in fact the opposite that is true.

The sheer amount of time and money that has been wasted on atheists vainglorious pursuit of 'proof' of their failed ideology, that could have instead been spent on actually productive research or cultural and social causes, is mind-boggling.
There is no one "atheist movement". It is a description of one property that is absent. The quasi-Abrahamic Marxists have fuck all to do with the Randians on any practical position, they just both tell you to think about another book instead of resting everything on the Bible.

You can even find religious members of those ideologies who will quote scripture and cite Popes to back their position, because they're almost entirely about material politics so they can easily be adapted to a wide variety of ethical premises. Sometimes with less gymnastics than the Divine Right of Kings the Catholic Church spent centuries hitching its credibility to.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
No, they demand evidence, and you have none in favor of your position in particular.
When all evidence against your position is denied by category, and repeated frauds supporting your position are dismissed as irrelevant, it's really easy to claim that all evidence supports your position, and none supports your opponent's.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
When all evidence against your position is denied by category, and repeated frauds supporting your position are dismissed as irrelevant, it's really easy to claim that all evidence supports your position, and none supports your opponent's.
From the perspective of someone who is actually on the spectrum and had to go to a special needs school as a result, this is some weapons grade autism right here.
 

mandragon

Well-known member
Ah, Christians and completely misguided attempts to defend their faith. Name a more iconic duo.

And I say that as a Christian!

Look, I’ve been to London’s Natural History Museum, and I’ve seen fossils in their thousands. Evolution is something of an unavoidable fact right now, and these misguided at best, bad faith at worst, attempts are critiquing it are utterly unproductive.

How do you think we got from T-Rex to the Pigeon?
What I've always found amusing is that in its basic form evolution doesn't necessarily preclude God creating things. Think about it in Genisis we are told that man is made in God's image. He will by that definition presumably be at least a little bit lazy at times,and because of that. Just as humans create technology and basically automated processes to make life easier. I would argue that God while creating life could have very easily created an automated process such as evolution. So he could put up his feet and enjoy his new creations without having to actively do anything.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
What I've always found amusing is that in its basic form evolution doesn't necessarily preclude God creating things. Think about it in Genisis we are told that man is made in God's image. He will by that definition presumably be at least a little bit lazy at times,and because of that. Just as humans create technology and basically automated processes to make life easier. I would argue that God while creating life could have very easily created an automated process such as evolution. So he could put up his feet and enjoy his new creations without having to actively do anything.
Because a non-interventionist divinity undermines a lot of more zealous Christian dogmatics theological thinking and arguments.

A Watchmaker God is much more 'boring' and less able to be used for moral, or literal, crusades.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Because a non-interventionist divinity undermines a lot of more zealous Christian dogmatics theological thinking and arguments.

A Watchmaker God is much more 'boring' and less able to be used for moral, or literal, crusades.

Only the foolish types think like that.

Educated clergymen wrote detailed treatises outlining why a complex, self-perpetuating and changing -- one might now say evolving -- Creation is in fact the grandest visible testimony to God's glory that one might imagine. And I'm talking about the 1100s here.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Only the foolish types think like that.

Educated clergymen wrote detailed treatises outlining why a complex, self-perpetuating and changing -- one might now say evolving -- Creation is in fact the grandest visible testimony to God's glory that one might imagine. And I'm talking about the 1100s here.
Well, yes, because in even 1100 natural evolution could be observed taking place in the world around the monks, domestication of plants and animals, and such.

They didn't have the name natural evolution to work with at that time, but they could still recognize it's effects and attribute it to the same thing as all the other mystery's of the time we had yet to puzzle out.
 

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