Conservatism and the Environment

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
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If you define conservatism as Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter? Sure. But most conservatives aren't anti-environmentalist, if by environmentalist you mean doing something effective about pollution. That said, their solutions to the problems tend to radically differ from left-wing solutions, and a lot of conservatives don't believe anthropomorphic climate change is a serious threat.
Note that the reason for the strong skepticism of anthropomorphic climate change is that Conservatives, tending to skew older and be more historical minded, keep track of all the "environmental doomsday" predictions that have... not panned out. In the 70s there was a Global Cooling scare regarding a potential new Ice Age that was used to push environmental regulations. Then it switched to "Global Warming" in the 80s and it was predicted that the world had 20 years before the apocalypse. 20 Years later things were still going along relatively fine... but then it was revised to "Climate Change" and again a 20 year time window was given to avert DOOM. It's been nearly 20 years since then and DOOM predictions of the 00s simply... have no panned out in any real way.

The problem is quite simple, while "doomsday" predictions tend to get the left riled up and the young energized, more conservative folks tend to look at such predictions and actions with heightened skepticism. Between the old failed predictions and the fact that apocalyptic predictions simply don't resonant with the more deeply religious right wing, using such calls to action in many ways has backfired against the larger environmental movement. Further, the most VISIBLE potential problem of rising sea levels, well... it doesn't effect most rank and file conservatives, some and consider, what locations are most liable to be negatively impacted by rising sea levels? Coastal cities. Where do Conservatives NOT tend to live in the US? Coastal cities. That issue? Not their problem, in fact, it's a problem for the people who most vocally HATE them. Yes, yes, there's negative economic impacts from cities being disrupted but those are secondary effects that don't really inform most people's gut reaction to the information.

Finally you get into the clear hypocrisy issues among the Greens that make Conservatives skeptical of them. Greenhouse gas emissions are a problem from power generation? OK, no problem, build more nuclear. But the Green movement is a major vocal opponent to nuclear power. So what is the REAL proposed solution. "Green energy" is not a mature technology, and even if it was, it's not something that really can supply the power demands of modern society and has all sorts of load issues and the like. As such, what it really seems Greens are demanding is that the US lower its standard of living and seem more like neo-Luddites at BEST and outright misanthropic are worst (given it has spawned things like the "Voluntary Human Extinction Movement" the latter seems MORE likely to many). That's a turnoff to a great many people.

And that's BEFORE we get into how many of the proposed policies by greens often seem more inspired by Marx than by concern for the environment, or the core philosophical differences in how many greens look to solve the problems compared to how Conservative philosophy would go about it.

So yeah, there's a reason Conservatives are skeptical of the green movement and the climate change stuff...
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
For me, it's the constant fear-mongering, year after year. Consistently wrong predictions being made over the course of several decades, and the predictions are always used to justify efforts to enact a transparently partisan political agenda. The most blatant of this was US Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's proposed "Green New Deal," which 1) was promoted using the blatant lie that the world would end in twelve years, a lie she admitted to after the fact, 2) had many items concerning racial equality that had nothing to do with climate change, and 3) was admitted to being a fig leaf for socialism in America by the people who designed it.

So yeah, there's a reason Conservatives are skeptical of the green movement and the climate change stuff...
Just because the Left has lied about the environment doesn't mean it isn't in trouble.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
Just because the Left has lied about the environment doesn't mean it isn't in trouble.
real environmental issues are things like microplastics, where the waste goes, overfishing, etc. But it's environmentalist groups who screech about farmed fish being terrible for the environment...

Fundamentally I can't take anyone calling themselves "environmentalist" seriously anymore because everywhere I look the "environmentalists" are being counterproductive.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
real environmental issues are things like microplastics, where the waste goes, overfishing, etc. But it's environmentalist groups who screech about farmed fish being terrible for the environment...

Fundamentally I can't take anyone calling themselves "environmentalist" seriously anymore because everywhere I look the "environmentalists" are being counterproductive.
just because they actively inhibit things that would help their causes and destroy the environment everywhere they go doesn't mean we shouldn't hand absolute political power to them for all generations.
 

prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
real environmental issues are things like microplastics, where the waste goes, overfishing, etc. But it's environmentalist groups who screech about farmed fish being terrible for the environment...

Fundamentally I can't take anyone calling themselves "environmentalist" seriously anymore because everywhere I look the "environmentalists" are being counterproductive.
In my experience, 'conservationist' tends to be the label more-often used by folks with more serious chops on environmental questions. Division there, because it can range from some of the same really out-there folks in both terms of 'never use it, humanity is a blight on the environment' to 'strip-mine the Amazon for dirt!' perspectives in rare cases, but the majority of the time it's bandied about it seems to be more of the 'judicious usage and preferable alternatives' segments of the population.

Also tends to overlap with more rural folks, by my read of things, and I'd attribute some part of the...counterproductive...ideas coming out of the 'environmentalist' movement to folks with real concern for the natural world but who live in a city or suburban area with a requisite distance and lack of experience or interaction with many environmental issues that affect broader parts of the country and have second and third-order effects that are left unconsidered, and they get roped-in by a very effective, and even justifiable and 'correct' in sentiment, publicity campaign that encourages them to take/support [x] actions if they support the environment. Wildlife management, particularly that in regards to species reintroduction and regularization--like that done with North American wolves in the US--as a prominent example.
It's like a PETA versus Humane Society question in the realm of environmental issues. Some environmental issues like anti-nuclear or anti-logging/mining/oil-extraction have a basis of real and justified concern just as both those organizations have real principled basis. But then a segment of people get whipped-up to supporting some questionable to actively-harmful shit because the 'PETA' of environmental issues is more flashy, well-known, and has surface appeal.

...And that's my rant on that.😩
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
A lot of people have addressed the strawman of 'conservatives don't care about the environment' pretty well here, I'll just raise two additional points:

1. The lifestyles of the political and media elites who preach about 'saving the environment' make it obvious they're lying. Massive estates that consume large amounts of energy, private jets for transport, etc, etc. If they actually thought we were in a crisis, their lifestyles would at least be no more energy-consuming than the middle-class Americans whose lifestyles they're trying to destroy.

2. Saying Rush Limbaugh doesn't care about the environment is doing him a disservice. He very clearly delineates between 'conscientious conservation-minded individuals,' as I believe he puts it, 'and environmentalist whackos.' He believes in taking good care of the environment, he just believes that literally everything the left says about it is a lie, and that if we need to consume less energy the American Way is to make everything more efficient, so we can turn up the heat, turn down the air-conditioner, and *still* use up less resources doing so.
 

Curved_Sw0rd

Just Like That Bluebird
Now this is a relevant article...


It's quite rich with details on why the Greens are the root of the problem and not skeptics.

Even someone who abides by all the latest rules of an eco-friendly lifestyle—eating strictly vegan, never flying, always buying local—will still be responsible for greenhouse gas emissions, for the simple reason that fossil fuels are everywhere: in steel and aluminum, in plastics and paper, in cement and artificial fertilizer, in housing and agriculture. Eight billion people living like climate saints would still produce billions of tons of carbon dioxide every year.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Now this is a relevant article...


It's quite rich with details on why the Greens are the root of the problem and not skeptics.
So just like people before modern times contributing to greenhouse emissions even before the industrial times?
 

Curved_Sw0rd

Just Like That Bluebird
So just like people before modern times contributing to greenhouse emissions even before the industrial times?
The overall point is that we've always been a force of entropy in some way. Cavemen burning twigs in cave, Bronze Age metalworking, all the way up to today, we find burning things to generate a massive amount of our power.

The emissions come from somewhere. You can't make steel without heat, you can't mine the materials for solar panels without electricity already plentiful.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
The overall point is that we've always been a force of entropy in some way. Cavemen burning twigs in cave, Bronze Age metalworking, all the way up to today, we find burning things to generate a massive amount of our power.

The emissions come from somewhere. You can't make steel without heat, you can't mine the materials for solar panels without electricity already plentiful.
And there's no way humans after advancing would the majority consider going back to zero unless forced to do so and the last time it was tried by the Khmer Rouge with Year Zero it wasn't pretty.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Now this is a relevant article...

It's quite rich with details on why the Greens are the root of the problem and not skeptics.
It says something that I find the Maarten Boudry's atheism and obvious hatred of Christians so repulsive that I'd rather side with the climate activists, even if I agree with his technological solutions.
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
I look at the socialist, or rather communist, history, and that alone should be enough to tell how bad an idea such politics are.
But you don't care, do you? A million people and more dead, but that's okay because you have your oh-so-precious communist regime.
Welp, (eats popcorn) Nice as the rant is it relies upon a few things like, y'know myself being a dogmatic communist (i'm pro-democracy above all, it being to the left is secondary). Also the "Socialism evil death cult" spiel is kinda old hat, I can't take it seriously when the Nazis were a thing and Indonesia etc etc. Now if we were talking "Totalitarianism kills needlessly" we'd be right up my alley, of course I consider the Republicans to be straying a bit closer to that line than i'd like but that's a whole nother argument.

So yeah, floor is yours I guess.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
You say this like its a bad thing
Well, that depends. I've met an environmentalist Maoist who claimed that the genocide of billions of people was necessary for the survival of the species. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you think environmentalism requires going so far.

In any case, I'm sure even you as a socialist could see the dishonesty of using environmentalism as a fig leaf for socialist policies that have nothing inherently to do with socialism.

Welp, (eats popcorn) Nice as the rant is it relies upon a few things like, y'know myself being a dogmatic communist (i'm pro-democracy above all, it being to the left is secondary). Also the "Socialism evil death cult" spiel is kinda old hat, I can't take it seriously when the Nazis were a thing and Indonesia etc etc. Now if we were talking "Totalitarianism kills needlessly" we'd be right up my alley, of course I consider the Republicans to be straying a bit closer to that line than i'd like but that's a whole nother argument.

So yeah, floor is yours I guess.
I'd be curious to learn what you consider totalitarianism and how the Republican Party is "straying a bit closer to that line," especially given how, ideologically speaking, they aren't any more extreme now than they were in, say, the 80s.
 

Curved_Sw0rd

Just Like That Bluebird
@Comrade Clod I want you to consider this: If we take Climate Change at face value, that it's a real and imminent problem, conjoining it to the hip to Socialism is a bad thing if you want to sell it to Western countries. There's a significant number of people who will reject Socialism no matter what, there's little that can be done about that.

Working with the Right and the Center is paramount, how else is anything going to get done?
 

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