Still vastly diffrent from Abtebellum
Confederate history month
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
Because the industrial north wasn’t all that much different. That accurately describes the Robber barons and the Guilded age. Because many Americans who are conservative patriots had family who fought and died for the confederacy and they aren’t about to condemn what their ancestors died for. However that wasn’t all of Dixie and that wasn’t every state in it by far, and it certainly didn’t describe everyone who fought as generals and soldiers of the confederacy or why they fought for. I don’t think Davis was a saint or even a great leader, but the Confederacy is a part of the American legacy, you can find good in it, it’s a point of pride for many conservative southerners and I think it’s worth preserving as much as the foundation of America, because many of the most prominent American founders were wealthy slave owners themselves, and I’m not about to say that they are evil and need to be removed.
The biggest point I see is that there is a major iconoclast force in America as of this moment, and it doesn’t see a difference between the confederacy and all of America. It believes that it is all evil white supremacy and all has to go. And so when you give ground, or worse, even side with them and say they have a point, you are scoring a goal on yourself. You’re assisting or allowing people who want all of it gone to take some, giving them a victory, emboldening them, and disrupting and fighting people who are much more in agreement and more on your side than they are.
Many did but not all and it depended on the era. I’m not aware of actual laws that prevented marriage between slaves or preaching the gospel and certainly both those things were allowed to occur by many owners.
It’s more compatible than the mainstream American value system we have now. I highly doubt they would move away more than we have.
Oh sure but it’s not so much what the actual laws should be around slavery but instead regardless of the system what the relationship should be. The south clearly had a failing in having laws that didn’t allow slaves some rights and should have biblically but ultimately on the actual morality of the conduct the laws of man regarding slavery don’t matter. No matter what they were, you are told how to treat them and how the relationship should be and that’s how you should treat them and I think the idea that no slave owners in America did that or at least tried to laughable. It’s likely it was more common pre cotton gun than post. Conduct got worse post the translation from indentured servitude to slavery and worse post cotton gin, but it was also worse across all industrialization too.
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King Arts
Well-known member
Here is the thing you can’t be a patriot and be pro confederate. The confederates tried to tear America apart, they were traitors. Also their entire nation and foundation was not culture or freedom or taxes but slavery. After the civil war the north even up to the present day insults and dominated the south but they haven’t had a second rebellion? Are they pussies or beaten dogs? Their are nations that have repeatedly launched wars for independence, till they won. The reason they haven’t is because they aren’t that unique or culturally different. It’s not like the Irish or the British where there are legitimate differences and they want freedom, no southerns just want to beat on blacks to make themselves feel superior. Southerners are actually quite coddled by America us northerners tolerate their pretentious statements of being the most patriotic of Americans while they also honor some of the people who did their best to destroy America. It’s ironic but you can say illegal immigrants make better Americans than them.
If you read their constitution you can see that they have three main changes from the original. Stronger emphasis on the rights of states, open appeal to God, and slavery. I think you can be pro both, and given the current state of who calls themselves patriots and America first or MAGA it’s hard to believe that THIS is the line that gets you ousted.
I mean they definitely are more patriotic and the efforts to destroy current America mainly come from the north lol. And yes, they weren’t extremely unique or culturally different. It’s why I believe that if they could see the state of current America both sides would immediately put down arms and do whatever they could to prevent current America from happening. And also, given how much stronger the states were then and from the foundation of America, I don’t think it’s unpatriotic to not want to go join a military that’s going in an effort to crush the place you grew up in, where your family lives, where your brothers and your family are, where you’ve been settled for generations. Being asked to kill your home, kill the people you grew up with, kill your own brothers by blood, and saying no and joining them doesn’t make you somehow not a patriotic or not in favor of your state or your section of America. Grant was able to recognize that and I think the peace of Appomattox court house is a fairly beautiful scene in how it ends allowing the confederates to leave with honor and dignity. That’s part of the reason there was no second rebellion. The north respected those they fought against and let them leave with dignity and wasn’t horribly vindictive against them.
They absolutely do not lol. How on Earth could you say that?
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King Arts
Well-known member
Yet, they don't seem to care about God, or states rights enough to force them into modern America. Here is a thing, after the civil war since like ww2 at the latest many military officers and soldiers were from the south. Yet not once has a group of military officers decided to pull a quick coup and force those two clauses into the regular constitution, and then destroyed the North's economy and population base so it could never catch up to the Southern States. That is something they would be capable of doing but they never did.
I said that the leaders were traitors, and the Confederacy itself was treason. However I wouldn't say the men who fought for their homes like Lee who would have joined the Union if Virginia did. I acknowledge back then loyalty to state was higher than loyalty to the Union. But the politicians like Jefferson Davis and everyone who was part of the CSA government people like senators, governors, congress, etc. but not including soldiers and officers should have hung and their property confiscated and given to slaves.
Tell me if some German immigrants start honoring ww2 German soldiers, or Japanese start honoring the IJA is that loyal? What about some commie retards in the north who like the Soviet Union, or Che Gueverra and other communist guerillas? All of those are past enemies of the U.S. There isn't too much of a differance between northern idiot communists "respecting" the enemies of America durring the cold war and Southern rednecks respecting the enemies of America durring the civil war.
The only way I have sympathy is if those people are honoring their ACTUAL ancestors, that means you can't be a northerner with the CSA flag for example. The point is illegal immigrants don't honor the people who used to be our enemies, at least 90% of the time.
Of course the CSA are not as bad as communists, if I was stuck between them and the Soviet Union I would ally with the CSA without a thought. Unless their terms for alliance were completely retarded.
No because they are foreign. It doesn’t matter if it’s these examples either. If it’s Mexico or Israel or the UK it’s no different and bad. It’s irrelevant if it’s these states you deliberately picked as evil to try and paint the confederacy in the same light. The confederacy however is American. It has been embraced as American since post the civil war and it’s only recently that it’s been separated and called UnAmerican.
Yes. In part, because those soldiers trained and lived in bases named after confederate generals. Because they could go to Arlington and see the confederate monuments, they could see their ancestors honored as American. Because they grew up in towns and high schools in America named after confederate leaders. Because that was not called un-American but embraced. The descendants of confederate soldiers could see their father and grandfather and great grandfather honored as equally as Union soldiers, as both a part of the American legacy. As having been a bloody tragic war of brothers, not of traitors being crushed and annihilated.
King Arts
Well-known member
The only reason the Confederacy is not foreign is because they lost lol. If they won they would have been an independent state. So yeah you can look at the Confederacy and call it UnAmerican. Especially since a significant amount of Americans are immigrants so why should we coddle those who tried to betray the nation, and treat those descendants differently than other Americans?
That was a political decision to prevent any further bloodshed and to reconcile the American people North and South. Realities change, and the South made stupid decisions since it's inception and alienated a vast swathe of people. So now that it's no longer necessary to appease them, because white southerners have tied themselves to racism and pissed off more than just black people. There is little sympathy when they get their monuments destroyed. They doomed themselves into irrelevance and now that more Americans are black, or yellow, or immigrants and those sons of the South pissed ALL of them off yeah it's being considered UnAmerican.
It would still be intrinsically linked the American legacy. And you can do that but that isn’t what America has done for centuries, and the same people pushing the hardest to do so also want to destroy the entire American legacy.
Question. Are you even a conservative? If not what do you consider yourself? If so what exactly do you see yourself conserving? And lol, like the south solely mistreated blacks and there was no mistreatment in the north. Like what are you even talking about man. It’s only recently that this has even been a thing and now that that is being destroyed and they have been hardline right for decades and have been a staunch bastion on the right, but they need to be punished? If you are on the right talk about scoring goals on yourself.
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To summarize my position on the confederacy and why I opted to make a thread on this. It’s a part of the American legacy and it’s heavily under attack by forces that do not see any difference or even care if it’s a confederate memorial or a memorial for black American soldiers. They will equally attack and deface and destroy both. This is what happened last summer. These are iconoclasts that are cheered on by the Democratic Party and who do not like any of it, and will happily see this destroyed. The right, those who call themselves conservatives should want to conserve America, and they should recognize who is doing what, and who their allies are.
If you are on the right and you are a conservative and you want to win and see America preserved, it is idiotic to attack and destroy confederate monuments and statues and history. That will not convince anyone at all to join you. In fact, it will make more southern people on the right just not give a fuck electorally. “What’s the point of even voting if both sides hate me and my heritage?” You gain nothing by doing so, and once the confederacy is eradicated by these iconoclasts, they can, have, and will move on to everything else. They’ve done this last summer, they’ve done this with Jackson. Maybe you don’t like the confederates. Maybe you hate them. Maybe you hate Jackson too. Maybe you only like a handful of American figures.
But the people that oppose the right? They hate all of it. They will just as easily and readily pull down the statue of commemorating WWII as they will that commemorating the confederates. They say they want the confederates removed from Arlington and then they will remove it all next. They’ll destroy the unknown soldier because he’s a white supremacist. You have to be willing to defend and stand up for them and put aside differences like this so that way you can have a stronger United front against people who want to destroy a nation you love. You have to look long and hard at which politicians are happy to capitulate to the left and then oust and replace them with better people, and look really hard and really closely at the people you are replacing them with. You have to view this as an existential threat targeting all of it and that real action and steps have to be taken by right wing leadership that can prevent and fix and solve forces that want America to be nothing more than an open borders multi national corporate entity with all its character destroyed and its foundational population entirely replaced by foreign workers who do not give a singular fuck about the America that was.
If you are on the right and you are a conservative and you want to win and see America preserved, it is idiotic to attack and destroy confederate monuments and statues and history. That will not convince anyone at all to join you. In fact, it will make more southern people on the right just not give a fuck electorally. “What’s the point of even voting if both sides hate me and my heritage?” You gain nothing by doing so, and once the confederacy is eradicated by these iconoclasts, they can, have, and will move on to everything else. They’ve done this last summer, they’ve done this with Jackson. Maybe you don’t like the confederates. Maybe you hate them. Maybe you hate Jackson too. Maybe you only like a handful of American figures.
But the people that oppose the right? They hate all of it. They will just as easily and readily pull down the statue of commemorating WWII as they will that commemorating the confederates. They say they want the confederates removed from Arlington and then they will remove it all next. They’ll destroy the unknown soldier because he’s a white supremacist. You have to be willing to defend and stand up for them and put aside differences like this so that way you can have a stronger United front against people who want to destroy a nation you love. You have to look long and hard at which politicians are happy to capitulate to the left and then oust and replace them with better people, and look really hard and really closely at the people you are replacing them with. You have to view this as an existential threat targeting all of it and that real action and steps have to be taken by right wing leadership that can prevent and fix and solve forces that want America to be nothing more than an open borders multi national corporate entity with all its character destroyed and its foundational population entirely replaced by foreign workers who do not give a singular fuck about the America that was.
Plenty of people opened up and said confederate history month is terrible and things like that need to be removed. The guy I’m responding to is saying that the statues getting torn down is just the South getting what it deserves. Right now military bases are being renamed if they were named after Confederates. Trump spoke against that. Think about why, and that if you want to preserve American culture and history and pride you should too.
King Arts
Well-known member
No they don't. The Confederacy has about as much linkage to American legacy as the Nazis do, a bunch of losers that fought us, and got their asses handed to them.
Have you payed attention to my anti gay stance? Have you payed attention to where I state morality and law come from religion? Apparently you can only be conservative if you suck off the Confederacy. Have you ever watched the Free State of Jones? The movie is about a Confederate soldier who loses his son in a battle and decides to stop fighting for the Confederacy after they learn about how the Confederate government passed a law allowing the rich who have a large number of slaves to get out of conscription. He deserted and with a group of poor whites and runaway slaves seceded from the Confederacy. In the movie there was a scene where a poor white guy says why are we allowing niggers to help us out. And then the main character says something like "They had to be put in chains and forced to work for the rich planters, why did you choose to be their nigger and fight and die for them."
Newton Knight - Wikipedia
Yet the Confederacy fought him and tried to stop him, but I thought they were all about the freedom to take your land and make your own country? Lol.
Anyway I'm an immigrant and a northerner why would I want to defend a group of lazy rich assholes who wanted to use blacks as farming tools, and the other group of useful idiot losers who defend the interests of the first group and are racist just so they don't have to face the fact and see how pathetic they are. I mean my ancestors never fought for the South, so how exactly would it be conservative to support them your logic does not make sense.
Also yes the South was not the only ones who were racist. But northerners were smarter about it. Instead of passing laws that say "NO NIGGERS ALLOWED!" they instead were more subtle about it, by doing things like building highways between white neighborhoods and black ones to keep them separate. Also the northern states like California were absolutely racist towards Asians that came over. That is part of the reason I have a general antipathy towards the South and Confederate apologia. If Southerners were smart and cared about improving their lot in life, or even taking northern whites down a peg, then instead of being white supremacists who want to put other races down and shout "SCREW NIGGERS,JEWS, CHINKS, AND SAND NIGGERS! WHITE POWER!" They shout this at the top of their lungs they support when other whites do it, even if it would have no benefit towards them, they actively antagonize other races that aren't white. If they were smart they would try being cordial and ally with groups that they haven't fucked in the past. I know the White southern Culture of the Confederacy and Blacks won't get along well due to history but for example the Confederacy did not enslave or oppress Asians. They could point at California and take a stand against Asian hate by White liberals in the North in the past, or when modern blacks did violence against Asians a group like the daughters of the Confederacy could have donated to medical bills or something. I don't know, it's just that white supremacists always drag everything down with their idiocy and they need to be purged so that conservatives can make allies, and be more than just white people.
I seem to recall bringing up how slavery was justified in the Bible, and how this was used by Southerners to justify slavery and later segregation in the LGB rights thread, and having a bunch of people jump on me and claim that wasn't true. It's nice getting proven right.
A single guy proves you right about 80% of America.
You reason like you have arrested development issues
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
Honestly rather than tear down any Southern general's statues or memorials, I'd like to see a push to promote Southern Unionist generals, and Southern Unionists in general - they're a woefully overlooked part of the history around the American Civil War. Take George H. Thomas, for example: a Virginian planter like Lee, but one who chose his country over his state (and was basically cut out of his family by his kin for it, but stood by his decision nevertheless), was remarkably competent in command, fair to the freedmen and defeated Confederates alike, and was personally a humble guy who refused to write any memoirs and turned down promotions he didn't think he deserved or which would have slighted his friends.
Man was practically a Southern paladin with the stars & stripes on his surcoat, to the extent that if he wasn't real and was written into a story, he'd be accused of being a Gary Stu - and there were ~100,000 other Southerners who, like him, marched and fought in Union blue. Unfortunately they seem to have gone forgotten for far too long, their existence an inconvenience to both the Dunning School Southern nationalists/sympathizers who consider them traitors when they're thought of at all, the post-Dunning School revisionists (a word which I don't mean negatively in this context, the Dunning Schoolers were the sort to unironically depict slavery as a relaxing extended vacation for the slaves and think that they didn't deserve any civil rights) who put more emphasis on Lincoln/the Republican legacy and the freedmen/USCT, and more recent left-wing historians hellbent on demonize the entire South as inhuman monsters who universally made the slaves pick 1000 tons of cotton a day while whipping them with their own spines.
Man was practically a Southern paladin with the stars & stripes on his surcoat, to the extent that if he wasn't real and was written into a story, he'd be accused of being a Gary Stu - and there were ~100,000 other Southerners who, like him, marched and fought in Union blue. Unfortunately they seem to have gone forgotten for far too long, their existence an inconvenience to both the Dunning School Southern nationalists/sympathizers who consider them traitors when they're thought of at all, the post-Dunning School revisionists (a word which I don't mean negatively in this context, the Dunning Schoolers were the sort to unironically depict slavery as a relaxing extended vacation for the slaves and think that they didn't deserve any civil rights) who put more emphasis on Lincoln/the Republican legacy and the freedmen/USCT, and more recent left-wing historians hellbent on demonize the entire South as inhuman monsters who universally made the slaves pick 1000 tons of cotton a day while whipping them with their own spines.
We have fort Hood not fort Rommel. Fort Benning not fort Goering. You’re just blatantly ignoring everything I’m saying. This is not remotely true of how the government has treated it and how our culture has been, particularly military culture. You’re just ignoring all of that and telling me how you personally feel.
because the same people aiming to destroy that are the same people aiming to destroy what you like. Even if you don’t like them it’s worth standing together. It’s the same thing I tell people too wrapped up in Protestantism vs Catholicism. It’s like “there are active forces right now looking to eradicate all of it. We shouldn’t fight each other right now.” Same thing applies here. Last summer they defaced many confederate monuments. They also defaced the Massachusetts 54th regiment monument. Ever seen the movie Glory? Those guys. They were cheered and defended by Shadow President Kamala and the Democrat party. You defend them even if you don’t like them so that way they defend you, because the wolves at the gates are coming for us both. They just chose the Confederacy because it was an easier first target. Divide and conquer, get people who will happily capitulate to the left that we call RINOs to support you, and then take down the others systematically.
King Arts
Well-known member
Confederate history month is terrible and stupid. Just like the tranny day of rememberance is stupid. Having specefic days or months to remember a historical thing is stupid, UNLESS it's on that specific day that you are commemorating it. For example July 4th Independence day is not stupid, on July 4th we declared independence from Britain. But having a Revolutionary history month in December would be dumb.
Also wow, where did I say that I support historical monuments being destroyed? No monuments, statues, and the like should be targeted, you can make the argument that they should not have been put their in the first place, but once they have been there for years upon years no you can't touch it. Hell I'm extremely protective of history, more so than anyone else. Everyone here likes everything Trump has done while I'll roast the hell out of him, for stupid things he has threatened and said, for example threatening to bomb the Iranian historical sites, that would be horrible. I honestly think someone who destroys historical monuments is worse than a mass murdering war criminal.
That’s how I read this, that you have little sympathy there.
If you are against their destruction than my apologies.
I mean, if you have to show you arnt willing to pull punches, threatening historical sites works
King Arts
Well-known member
Uhh no fuck that. Anyone who actually suggests that needs to be put up against a wall and shot. There are other sane responses like launching a nuclear strike at the capital Tehran instead. Yes something extreme like nuking cities is more palatable to me than destroying history. Sure there are probably museums, and art and other historical artifacts. But there is a difference between directly targeting it, and accidental collateral damage.
That would destroy an incredible number of historical sites lol.
A tour of 10 most famous historical monuments in Tehran
Modern Tehran is home to skyscrapers and high-rise buildings of all variations, but there are many other beautiful structures of note.
www.tehrantimes.com