Confederate history month

Antebellum slavery was just an institution born from a inherent need (cheap labor) that would have been peacefully replaced and phased out in time as technology and society progressed.
Just like Russian Serfdom.

That seems unlikely, given how invested the south was in slavery as an institution, to the point they started the civil war as soon as an anti-slavery president was elected. Not a congress, not a SC, just a president. Granted, Lincoln could have and likely would have made things harder for them but by no means did he have the power to actually end slavery in any meaningful sense, that would take congress (which they controlled/had enough votes to block anything serious) or the SC, which they had a lock on.
 
We all love to hate on the Confederacy . . .
But have you ever heard of Serfdom in Russia?
Slavery with some different terminology and it was abolished around the same time, in 1861.

Antebellum slavery was just an institution born from a inherent need (cheap labor) that would have been peacefully replaced and phased out in time as technology and society progressed.
Just like Russian Serfdom.

That's a pretty theory, but not one that bears out. Slavery has never been more effective than paid labor, but it does fulfill the cravings of the twisted parts of men's hearts to rule over others.

Part of how the Founding Fathers thought to eradicate slavery in the US, was because of the economic unviability of it. However, they underestimated just how invested some people would become in the institution, and didn't know about the cost-efficiency edge that the Cotton Gin would create to keep it more viable for longer.

In the end, just like how many modern Democrats prop up their own sense of worth by looking down and sneering at their intellectual and moral 'inferiors,' they did the same with slaves in the 1800's. It's not primarily about the money, though it secondarily is, it's about being a man of status, who has others work for him, rather than being one who needs to work himself.

de Tocqueville described some of the signs of this he saw in the differences between slave and non-slave states in America.
 
We all love to hate on the Confederacy . . .
But have you ever heard of Serfdom in Russia?
Slavery with some different terminology and it was abolished around the same time, in 1861.

Antebellum slavery was just an institution born from a inherent need (cheap labor) that would have been peacefully replaced and phased out in time as technology and society progressed.
Just like Russian Serfdom.
No, that was believed to be the case in the late 1700s, but with the invention of the printing press, cheap labor became even more valuable. And with industrialization hitting the south, it would have become even more valuable. There would have been slaves in the mines in West Virginia for example.
 
And with industrialization hitting the south, it would have become even more valuable. There would have been slaves in the mines in West Virginia for example.

Probably not, actually. I recall reading that the south was reluctant to industrialize because those jobs weren't viable to use slave labor for. Farming already had a problem with slave labor being inefficient, and for thst the worst the slaves could do was work slower. Industrisl work? Working slower and less effectively pits you against superior free labor in the North, who will out compete you, and that's a best case scenario. Worst case would be constant sabotage and poor workmanship (there's a reason the nszis had so many production issues when they tried using slave labor for manufacturing).

And mining? No way. The southern elites were terrified of any possibility of a slave rebellion, there's no way they would ever let slaves near a job that involved explosives.
 
Slavery has never been more effective than paid labor
Coordination problems, budgets, and where the slaves came from disagree. For a very long time, you needed to force people to work in conditions we'd call slavery today to get any real infrastructure done, because it would require keeping a massive labor force on task for years, and was frequently done in replacement of just flat-out exterminating large sums of men from conquered areas or defeated armies (and, indeed, this is precisely where the African slave supply originated, before European buyers made slavery an end unto itself).

The reason for slavery starting in the American colonies? There were not enough European settlers period to do the amount of labor needed to make a profit off the months-long transatlantic voyages needed to ship anything. To get the needed amount of work done to justify the cost of establishing colonies, they needed forced labor, and the inertia of this held it up decades after it became economically questionable.

It's little different from the arguments over a $15 minimum wage. The price tag of a good lifestyle that would actually attract people to come from Europe wasn't worth the value they could produce there, and so settlers were predominantly risk-takers willing to put in extraordinary effort to try and establish those conditions under their own power. Which, again, were in far too short supply to justify the expense of the voyages to supply them what couldn't be procured locally.
 
We all love to hate on the Confederacy . . .
But have you ever heard of Serfdom in Russia?
Slavery with some different terminology and it was abolished around the same time, in 1861.

Antebellum slavery was just an institution born from a inherent need (cheap labor) that would have been peacefully replaced and phased out in time as technology and society progressed.
Just like Russian Serfdom.
To add to what has been said, the American Civil War was as much an ideological conflict as it was an economic one. I've already spoken about the development of a thoroughly pro-slavery ideology in Southern circles in my first post here, so instead I'll limit myself to just the immediate pre-war situation. The South so despised the 'Black Republicans' and were so paranoid that Lincoln would discard their Peculiar Institution that even before any fighting or secession happened, they fractured their own party because the Northern Democrats weren't sufficiently extremely pro-slavery for their liking - ironically almost certainly dooming both Democratic tickets to defeat - and Lincoln himself was not even allowed onto the ballot in any of the future Confederate states except Virginia.

Imagine that. At least in modern California, you can still vote for a Republican candidate if you want, though they're exceedingly unlikely to get anywhere outside of the rural hinterland counties and maybe some suburban ones like Orange County. In 1860? If you were a Southerner who lived anywhere outside Virginia, you literally couldn't even vote for the Republicans, because they wouldn't have been an option on your ballot. That is how much the South feared and hated Lincoln. (Incidentally his predecessor in 1856, John Fremont, was similarly not on any Southern ballot, not even Virginia's, and threats of secession if he was elected were also thrown around with alarmingly casual regularity in that election too)

I don't believe a society that willing to shoot itself in the foot just because their compatriots weren't as zealously committed to slavery as they were and to openly shit on the democratic process (just as if not even more brazenly than Lincoln himself would in the war with measures like the sidelining of habeas corpus), had it emerged victorious in the ACW, would have forsaken slavery anytime soon even if they couldn't (or refused to) find new and more profitable uses for their slaves, like those @Abhorsen suggested above. Not after they'd even more firmly wedded themselves to the Peculiar Institution with the blood of tens or hundreds of thousands of Southern soldiers, depending on when the war ended.

And the generation of poorer, more populist Southern leaders who came after the planters were more prone to upholding white supremacy & keeping the blacks in (as close as they could get to) slave-like conditions with murderous violence than the old planters, not less! 'Pitchfork' Ben Tillman and Theodore Bilbo, for example, were vastly more thuggish, bellicose and dishonorable than the likes of Lee and Longstreet, after all - even comparing them to NBF would be unfair to Forrest, they seriously acted and sounded more like William Quantrill or 'Bloody' Bill Anderson (or any other of the CSA's most disgusting & sadistic commanders you care to think of) in governor's chairs than they did the founder of the KKK.

Think of it this way: the Soviet Union didn't abolish Communism after the Russian Civil War, no matter how much economic sense it made and even after the fanaticism of the earlier wartime generations gave way to those of more pragmatic and openly, indefensibly corrupt apparatchiks. So I believe post-war Confederate society would have followed a similar trajectory to the Soviets as far as defending an economically inviable and morally monstrous system goes, unless they're absolutely militarily forced into abolishing slavery by the British or another foreign power (against which they had far less defense than the USSR did against its fascist and capitalist enemies).
 
Imagine that. At least in modern California, you can still vote for a Republican candidate if you want, though they're exceedingly unlikely to get anywhere outside of the rural hinterland counties and maybe some suburban ones like Orange County.

That's actually not quite true. California has an open primary, and for various reasons the net result is that many elections end up being Democrat vs Democrat.
 
That's actually not quite true. California has an open primary, and for various reasons the net result is that many elections end up being Democrat vs Democrat.
In presidential elections? IIRC Trump got about 4.5 million votes in California in 2016, and about 6 million last year. All but one of the future Confederate states wouldn't allow even one for Lincoln.
 
In presidential elections? IIRC Trump got about 4.5 million votes in California in 2016, and about 6 million last year. All but one of the future Confederate states wouldn't allow even one for Lincoln.

The president is on the ballot, it's just for state office and congress.

I know a couple states tried to ban Trump from being on the ballot unless he released his tax returns, but I don't think they succeeded.
 
Could sharecropping be thought of as a kind of serfdom?

Well serfdom (d)evolved out of sharecropping as failed late Roman economic policy. Basically Diocletian, in between butchering Christians and destroying the economy with price controls, was in a desperate rush to get money in the imperial coffers since the Empire was bankrupt after generations of increasingly debasing the currency and he needed to pay troops to defend against the barbarians at the frontier. So he basically enacted taxes that the freeman tenant farmers couldn't pay, and to prevent them escaping these impossible taxes he tied them to the land, making them the first serfs.
 
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To add to what has been said, the American Civil War was as much an ideological conflict as it was an economic one. I've already spoken about the development of a thoroughly pro-slavery ideology in Southern circles in my first post here, so instead I'll limit myself to just the immediate pre-war situation.

What's also worth noting is that the proponents of this "let's enslave everyone" ideology denoted it as ... dun dun dun ... a form of socialism.
 
Slavery's proponents identified it as socialist?
Yeah in some cases--particularly those who pushed for it to be expanded (both across state lines and across racial lines...Yeah, Antebellum Southern culture produced some fascinating wanking of slavery as a concept and system).

George Fitzhugh was was one of the biggest names writing from the position. He and a few others used labor theory of value and criticism of northern wage-slavery and factory labor to advocate in favor of slavery as a superior system because of the protections it afforded the laboring class and, in Fitzugh's case, the (sit down for this one) communalization of property that existed between slave and master--even straight-up enshrining slavery as the best example of socialism in action in the world at the time.
 

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