Confederate history month

[strunkenwhite]

Considering Lincoln was a racist piece of shit who used the Irish as cannon fodder. William Sherman was the first person to write about a final solution to a Jewish and African question and Grant was a butcher and they were all war criminals?

Don't pretend your American Civil War had good people on either side.

Lincoln destroyed the Republic to save it and he created the foundation for the sick shit FDR got up too and the confederacy was only slightly worse.

Fuck Lincoln, fuck Davis, fuck Grant. Lee was the only hero and everyone else is burning in hell.

Edit- For the record the Irish were also assholes, if you are gonna swarm a nation and compete with its native sons and take away their opportunities the least you can do is serve that country and help keep it's native sons from battle.

But that goes to my point. From an immigrants perspective everyone in the ACW except Lee were terrible, treasonous and hurt America.

Given that you think the Republic was destroyed in that war (and appear to dislike that), I'm surprised you don't hate Lee most of all. Had he commanded the Army of the Potomac instead of the Army of Northern Virginia, the war would probably have ended a lot sooner and with a lot less cost in lives, treasure, and 'destruction of the Republic'. Instead he decided that loyalty to his state demanded treason to his country and only ended up maximizing the damage done to both.

 

[strunkenwhite]

it’s not at all. Slavery isn’t even morally wrong. It’s just wrong to mistreat a slave and a slave to disobey a master. Like, abortion is worse than normal murder because you are killing the most innocent human being possible for your own selfish purposes that you created. Slavery, and living as a slave, is much better than being murdered.

Having a slave is mistreating that person, generally speaking.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Slaves also practiced contraception, abortion and even infanticide. Toni Morrison's historical novel Beloved discussed how some enslaved women would kill their children instead of having them raised as property like their parents. The story itself is fictionalized but based on the story of Margaret Garner, a woman who attempted to escape slavery and when cornered by US Marshals, killed her two year old daughter and attempted to kill her other young children as well. She was charged with the destruction of property as a result instead of murder due to the complicated legal nature of the case. Later its suspected she drowned a baby daughter of hers during a steamboat accident where she tried to drown herself a few years later.

Hard to control stuff like cotton root bark was used as contraceptive and abortifacient as well despite the fact it is not a food obviously and can actually have deleterious and toxic effects on the Human body (which I suppose is part of the point since it's meant to kill the unborn).

 

[Abhorsen]

it’s not at all. Slavery isn’t even morally wrong. It’s just wrong to mistreat a slave and a slave to disobey a master. Like, abortion is worse than normal murder because you are killing the most innocent human being possible for your own selfish purposes that you created. Slavery, and living as a slave, is vastly better than being murdered, and isn’t inherently immoral. There isn’t a morally equivalency there.

Slavery as practiced in America is inherently immoral, at the very least because one cannot leave it and none of the slaves in America consented. You trying to draw an edge case here is very childish, very stupid, and most of all, very irrelevant, as it is quite obvious what we are talking about here.

 

[King Arts]

Why are we talking about Westphallian soverignity? It does not apply, if the South WON the civil war, then 5 years later the north came for a rematch then the argument could be made. But Westphallian Soverignity means that nations should not have their internal affairs managed by another foreign nation. It does not apply to rebels until they win, America during the revolutionary war would not be covered under it because they are still part of the nation. Only the American revolutionaries won, while the Confederates lost. Their "nation" lasted 5 years.

 

[FriedCFour]

Slavery as practiced in America is inherently immoral, at the very least because one cannot leave it and none of the slaves in America consented. You trying to draw an edge case here is very childish, very stupid, and most of all, very irrelevant, as it is quite obvious what we are talking about here.

It’s not an edge case I’m just bringing up what I believe morally because that’s guided by the Bible. Even with American slavery murdering babies is worse than being a slave.

Why are we talking about Westphallian soverignity? It does not apply, if the South WON the civil war, then 5 years later the north came for a rematch then the argument could be made. But Westphallian Soverignity means that nations should not have their internal affairs managed by another foreign nation. It does not apply to rebels until they win, America during the revolutionary war would not be covered under it because they are still part of the nation. Only the American revolutionaries won, while the Confederates lost. Their "nation" lasted 5 years.

Because Abhorsen said you should intervene militarily in other nations over their domestic social issues to make them more like what your country likes. His justification of the civil war was you should stop any slavery anywhere and invade and go to war over moral injustices, when the real justification is exactly what you said. I think both sides had a decent claim, both did wrong, both are better than we are now and both should be admired and looked up to. I don’t see any reason how you can love the foundational America and then hate the confederacy and want that history and that heritage annihilated.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Given that you think the Republic was destroyed in that war (and appear to dislike that), I'm surprised you don't hate Lee most of all. Had he commanded the Army of the Potomac instead of the Army of Northern Virginia, the war would probably have ended a lot sooner and with a lot less cost in lives, treasure, and 'destruction of the Republic'. Instead he decided that loyalty to his state demanded treason to his country and only ended up maximizing the damage done to both.

Lee was loyal to his state to the bitter end, an ancestor of mine fought and died in a very similar situation and he did it against his own kin. I can at least respect the man for sticking to his guns.

Lincoln was going to tyrannize and Federalize the Country no matter what, the war could have ended after the first year and America would still be on the road to oligarchy and an illegitimate President following a coup de'tat.

There was no way, the ACW was ever going to end with anything other than the Federal Government taking extreme amounts of power and setting the stage for the death of Liberty. Lincoln was an authoritarian monster and Davis may be, possibly the most useful idiot in the last five centuries.

Here's the thing about historical figures I like honoring: even if they did do bad, they also did a lot of good. I don't need to honor just perfect people. Cause risk. Good they did mostly outshines the horrors. Also, Grant's depiction as a butcher is overblown. He just knew that his winning advantage vs. Lee was attrition, and fought to secure victory.

There is no objective difference between Oliver Cromwell, Maximilian Robespierre and Abraham Lincoln.

They're all cut from the same depraved cloth...

As for Lincoln being the foundation for what would come with FDR, he didn't have much of a choice, and I'd blame others more, as well as railroads, cars, and radio getting rid of borders.

Lincoln could have allowed the South to secede while totally refusing to recognize it. Then committed a total trade embargo on the south/funding slave rebellions and insurgencies by religious fanatics within the South..Like the radical Republicans were doing any way. The whole of the South would have eventually descended into total anarchy and then you move in using local militias supported by Federal troops to restore order.

Hell he could have declared war as he did OTL yet done so without the grotesque abuse of his office and the proto surveillance state.

Also, Lee was a sack of shit too who was brutal to his slaves.

But more, I'm not talking about people here, but sides. And in this rare case, there was a moral and immoral side. And glorifying that side is wrong.

Lel

Any way..both sides were equally immoral, one fought for slavery and the other was run by a guy who in a debate with Douglas said he would deport all blacks to Africa if he could find a way to do it cheaply and his second most important General was a guy Adolf Eichman and Hydrich both sourced when coming up with the holocaust.

The South fought an idiotic battle to protect a method of agriculture that was obsolete by that point for the better part of a century and hinged their entire cultural wagon to that wildly unstable horse and ran themselves headlong into a cultural genocide as a result.

There is no good..Only bad.

Confederate soldiers deserve to be celebrated as American heroes, they at least fought for their homes even if their leaders fought to keep humans as farming equipment....The Union fought to impose oligarchy on the masses and began the horrific American trend of "lets just import enough foreigners to solve our current social ills in the temporary, surface deep sense! Surely nothing can go wrong!"

 

[ShieldWife]

Slavery was wrong, without a doubt, and it’s good that it ended. Could it have been ended in a better way? Almost certainly. Though just as I believe that slavery is wrong, I also believe that there is a right of the states to secede if that is the will of the people there, and so forcing the Confederacy back into the Union was wrong. The Confederacy’s slavery was also wrong. As with most conflicts, the Civil War had shades of gray rather than pure black and white.

I would say that the Civil War essentially ended the Republic known as the USA and turned it into an empire. Once the states are no longer voluntary participants, but conquered subjects, then the ends ends and the empire begins and we still live in the empire created by the Civil War.

Being pro-Confederate is a strange position though, in many ways. Most people who display the Confederate flag (or Naval Ensign or Battle Flag of Virginia more accurately) neither support reinstating slavery nor do they want the Southern States to secede and create a new Confederacy, so it seems unwise to support the Confederacy when it comes with so much controversial baggage that you don’t believe in.

Many people talk about Southern pride but I’m not really sure what that means. Seems kind of vague.

When people start talking about the evils of the Confederacy it just agitate me a bit, not because there weren’t bad aspects to the Confederacy, but because white slavery of blacks is singled out as something uniquely and horrifically evil that people today should still be ashamed of, yet all of the other terrible stuff happening all over the world through out the millennia is ignored.

So there is a side of me that just wants to fly the Stars and Bars as a big F-you to all of the anti-white leftists out there who it would piss off, not because I want slavery or want secession.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Going too deep into counterfactuals about what Lincoln (and Republicans, for that matter) would have done if the war was short and relatively easily won seems like it would be a derail, so I'll just say I strongly disagree.

As for Confederate soldiers being American heroes, every single one of them is literally a traitor to his country. Having said that, they did fight for their home, or their state, or in some cases for the institution of slavery, and they deemed it a higher cause than the republic. That doesn't mean they can't be remembered and honored by their descendants for the good things they did. But the rebellion is not one of the things to be honoring. Still good to remember it though, as long as the remembering is done with clear eyes.

There's a good song I heard that seems to capture well the emotion that Southerners often seem to have regarding this part of history:


That emotion is real. But to alter a phrase, "Don't be sad it's over. Be sad it happened."

 

[Cherico]

it has been 156 years since the civil war ended, the south as a part of america only had slavery for 89 years. Previous to that we were a colony of the british empire and that blame gets split.

The last person born into slavery in the united states was Peter mills and he died 1972, that was 49 years ago.

The south is more then a 4-5 year period in american history and I really wish we could just move on from what happened.

 

[Zachowon]

it has been 156 years since the civil war ended, the south as a part of america only had slavery for 89 years. Previous to that we were a colony of the british empire and that blame gets split.

The last person born into slavery in the united states was Peter mills and he died 1972, that was 49 years ago.

The south is more then a 4-5 year period in american history and I really wish we could just move on from what happened.

But we can't.

Because as this thread has shown.

We Americans are to stubborn in diffrent ways to focus on anything other then the bad parts of our history.

Like fried and Inmortal compared to Abhorsen and others.


My take on the civil war is: it happend. Both sides did right and wrong. In the end the US won.

I think we should honor those fallen confederates like we honor the dead union soldiers. They both fought for thier homes and what they believed in.


I personally think the ACW is what help lead America to being the powerhouse it is today, and without it, had WW1 or WW2 still happend. America would be a laughing stock of the world and we would have no strong staying power.

And it would be easy to bribe say..The CSA to fight against the union in one of those wars should the CSA had lasted that long

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

But we can't.

Because as this thread has shown.

We Americans are to stubborn in diffrent ways to focus on anything other then the bad parts of our history.

Like fried and Inmortal compared to Abhorsen and others.

There is a lot to be proud of if you're an American, this is the new Rome and its influence will likely last as long as Egypt if not longer. But the ACW was not a tale of heroes vs villains, but tyrants fighting madmen.

I personally think the ACW is what help lead America to being the powerhouse it is today, and without it, had WW1 or WW2 still happend. America would be a laughing stock of the world and we would have no strong staying power.

Oh I don't think is disputable at all. Especially given so much of the concept of total war we saw in the twentieth century was refined in the ACW.

 

[Zachowon]

There is a lot to be proud of if you're an American, this is the new Rome and its influence will likely last as long as Egypt if not longer. But the ACW was not a tale of heroes vs villains, but tyrants fighting madmen.



Oh I don't think is disputable at all. Especially given so much of the concept of total war we saw in the twentieth century was refined in the ACW.

It just seemed like you were saying the CSA were not evil and it was all the USA fault. Sorry.

ACW is kinda what got us ready for WW1. And set forth effectiveness of various weapons. Like Machine guns.

 

[Captain X]

First example of trench warfare, too, I think.

I am inclined to not honor the Confederates beyond their prowess as warriors, and that's about as far as it goes.

Also, it's good to know Fried thinks slavery is a-okay.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Aight, I just want to make something absolutely clear.

Antebellum slavery is something the Romans would have looked upon as barbaric.

The.

Fucking.

Romans.

The world is a happier place without that kind of vicious cuntery in it.

 

[FriedCFour]

So there is a side of me that just wants to fly the Stars and Bars as a big F-you to all of the anti-white leftists out there who it would piss off, not because I want slavery or want secession.

You’ve stumbled across the exact reason people still fly it, and why it’s dumb to be against it. When you say “we need to end this” you’re a “principled” right winger siding with and supporting iconoclasts who want to destroy it all. They aren’t satisfied with seeing confederate names and monuments destroyed, their emboldened because they want it all gone. You’re helping to shift the window and you’re scoring a goal on yourself out of kindness and principles, and you will lose when you do this. Ten years down the road you’ll be defending the American Revolution and another “principled conservative” will come up and be like “look, Washington was a slave owner who was also racist, and that’s not good. We should destroy his statues and rename his monument to heal the nation. That’s the principled and compassionate conservative position.” And so on and so forth. Stop giving ground and scoring goals on yourself.

Also, it's good to know Fried thinks slavery is a-okay.

I’m not going to get on my knees and grovel in white guilt over slavery. I love my country, I love its history, I’m not going to apologize for any of it, and if that’s racist then fuck you. That’s my position. On American slavery black Americans have only benefitted from it today and they aren’t remotely grateful for it. Giving an inch leads to miles being taken as we’ve seen with Jackson and Lincoln and all others also being targeted last summer, with Jackson being replaced by someone who is frankly historically irrelevant. They’re going to do the same to the rest of them. They’re going to rename or rebrand monuments. They’re going to destroy confederate grave sites and monuments and then they’ll move on to others.

It’s also way more consistent to say “slavery isn’t inherently morally bad or the worst thing ever and I love America and it’s founding” and “slavery is the worst thing ever and I love America and it’s founding”. Once you cede that ground how do you say you love Americas founders and foundation exactly? They were the most evil and immoral men possible apparently, and according to @Abhorsen logic many of our founding fathers were more evil than men like John Wayne Gacy, with body counts higher than Edward Shipman.

 

[FriedCFour]

@Captain X see above. How the hell can you appeal to the founding fathers so much if slavery is so utterly evil and the worst thing ever? Washington owned three hundred slaves after all, so did many of the founding fathers. How can both of you admonish me as UnAmerican, appeal to these men heavily, and then imply that they were some of the worst monsters in history by their actions?

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Once you cede that ground how do you say you love Americas founders and foundation exactly? They were the most evil and immoral men possible apparently, and according to @Abhorsen logic many of our founding fathers were more evil than men like John Wayne Gacy, with body counts higher than Edward Shipman.

"They were men of their time."

There you go.

 

[FriedCFour]

"They were men of their time."

There you go.

So were the confederates. Now we can remember them and stop trying to destroy the history and the monuments and removing their names from everything.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

So were the confederates. Now we can remember them and stop trying to destroy the history and the monuments and removing their names from everything.

Practically everyone on the right agrees there. It's just that, because Neo-Reactionaries have no self control, we go straight from that to this crazy shit:

On American slavery black Americans have only benefitted from it today and they aren’t remotely grateful for it.