Important Civility Rules Enforcement

[ShieldWife]

Speaking as a leftist who does condemn regressive leftist extremism on a daily basis, I am under no obligation to tolerate similar extremism on the right (which isn't "mythical", and does exist). That said, I understand your concern about not wanting to cater to the left, or alienating people on their behalf that are more closely aligned with you politically; but that's not what this change in enforcement policy is about, as far as I can tell. It's about civility, and trying to keep jerks from treating people like garbage on this forum.

Although now that I think about it, I have a concern as to what constitutes a slur; does "trap" count? Or are the rules more referring to words meant to cause offense, rather than ones other people choose to take offense at?

I was basically responding to the tangential issue of the far right being a problem. I didn’t really see any staff here say in this thread that they wanted to purge far right elements from this site. If they do or did, I would be very disappointed. Although it is something that I worry about, because far too many right leaning groups have done exactly that over the years: grab the territory slightly to the right of the mainstream left and denounce anything to the right of that as being too extreme. That was the GOP for many years before Trump started stirring things up.

As for slurs, I really think that treating them as some horrifying heretical taboo is silly, another way that people in the middle and right internalize ideas of the far left.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

"You're making me ashamed to be a conservative." @fallif you cannot recognize that most of us who are correctly condemning bacle for his antics aren't at all conservative and want nothing to do with your stagnant ideology of suicidal appeasement then I honestly weep for conservatism, because you know nothing about your own ideology and that's well sad.

What we are however is the ideological future of America though.

And no this isn't a dog whistle, with the sheer volume of contempt I've shown for Nazism I shouldn't even have to say that.

First of all for the first time I am going to flame and tell you to please shut up, I don't give a d*mn what you think, (Because apparently you think you are mine and Bacle computer Daddy and should for some reason.) and honestly I could care less about whatever self defined metric you define yourself as that somehow put's you in the same political corner as me, I don't care.

At the end of the day you are no more or less than me or anybody else and not different in one way in the slightest , a naïve person who thinks he has all the answers when in reality we know nothing and are flying by the seat of our pant's, the difference between right and left is devastatingly simplistic, right ones follows realism and allows reality to shape their path, while left ones are simply idealist who think they can shape realty to their sole benefit.

The quickest way to gain my respect as a individual is to flat out admit that your ideals aren't perfect, not insist the opposite is true.

That's the most simplistic way I have grown to understand the differences between left and right.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

.

That's the most simplistic way I have grown to understand the differences between left and rights.

You ask for respect yet support someone who has made an effort to people he disagrees with purged and fabricate issues that don't exist.

When you self hate the way bacle does, people tend to call you out. When you target others for annihilation while professing to care for liberty of thought and expression, that call out gains a tone of disgust and when you try and frame an issue as the self aggrandizement of others or harassment of a poor innocent victim whose simply being challenged in honest discourse?

Then you are probably guilty of punching to your right in appeasement as others have noted.

Simply put using civility as a mask to hide intolerance while having the gall to patronize someone you just asserted you were the equal of cheapens the very word.

Which is a legitimate concern that was addressed earlier. Guess we will see if it pans out.

 

[Leepysheepy]

I don't give a d*mn what you think-

If you don't care what someone thinks Why do you care if they toss around insults or "slurs".

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

If you don't care what someone thinks Why do you care if they toss around insults or "slurs".

On the matter of slurs I'm a South American immigrant and most of the people I interact with are Afro Caribbean peoples or Cubans or Dominicans and I get called "the spic" all the time by the Jamaicans and Bajans in the group. Its not done in racism and even if it was I wouldn't care.

Slurs have the power that we give them.

No more and no less.

Hate speech is entirely a fiction invented to make social engineering easier.

 

[Duke Nukem]

On the matter of slurs I'm a South American immigrant and most of the people I interact with are Afro Caribbean peoples or Cubans or Dominicans and I get called "the spic" all the time by the Jamaicans and Bajans in the group. Its not done in racism and even if it was I wouldn't care.

Slurs have the power that we give them.

No more and no less.

Hate speech is entirely a fiction invented to make social engineering easier.

Funny enough i'm not white either...

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Funny enough i'm not white either...

I'm not a mestizo dude

My country is majority white. We just aren't anglo-Saxon.

But it is hilarious how the least effected by slurs on this site are all either non whites or Latinos or Asians.

Like you'd think they'd care about our take on slurs and not be destroying people in our name when we don't really care, or at least trust us to know the difference between some edge lord and a dude who seriously thinks we are beast men.

Lemon and Zach who I think are both African American?(I have no idea why I think this except I remember glancing at a thread and seeing that) Have also been through so much shit and probably lived through the genuine article enough that I'd be surprised if they care as well but I won't put words in either of their mouths.

Not that the Sietch should become pro slurs just that I would argue its more important to focus on actual malice. Some idiot dropping the N word isn't the same thing as a dude who genuinely believes blacks are subhuman and when both are treated equally it has the unfortunate side effect of making that mindset look edgy and cool.

Which just makes it alluring.

You skull fuck one, but you slap the other over the wrist or tell them to knock that shit off..Generally.

 

[Aldarion]

The admin staff is free to have their own reasons to agree with things. Spartan was explaining his own personal reason for supporting this course of action. As for myself, I do not mind how badly outnumbered I am--Aristasians don't live, as a matter of principle, for numbers, and don't make compromises with the Pit and bongos for the sake of recruiting--but rather because I felt I had genuinely sinned by not promoting a more harmonious environment on this board. I actually want us all to be friends... As silly as that may sound to you. We are very much alone in a hostile world, and we need to stay together--including the leftists who remain brave enough to support free speech in an era when even free speech is under assault. To me, that includes being civil to each other.

Thing is, genuine friends are, in part, marked by their ability to say "fuck you" and worse to each other without getting angry at each other. Of course, that is after they have already become friends so... yeah. But so far, during either lurking or posting, I do not really recall any incidents where incivility led to extreme conflicts. Now, I might have missed stuff, especially since I only found this forum relatively recently, but strigently enforcing formal civility rules seems kinda overkill to me as a) 99% of people here followed them anyway and b) those 1% who didn't weren't really a problem (at least from what I have seen; correct me if I'm wrong). So basically, in my opinion you are kinda overreacting.

Just my 2c. I am not against civility, but your post (and few other Staff posts in this thread) give me impression that you are trying to achieve something which simply cannot be achieved by such measures. Basically, laws are there to cover the area where culture has failed - but your stated goal can only be achieved by culture. I do not think anyone had any problems with what I posted anywhere on this forum despite the fact that I literally do not remember any of the rules. Yes, I have read them when registering and a couple of times afterwards, but I never could remember such stuff. I usually eventually quit posting on forums where rules were too numerous and too strigently enforced because anything beyond what was self-understood as part of basic civility and forum culture was something I was never able to follow, because, again, I am literally incapable of memorizing any formal stuff - which includes the rules (just to explian, but my entire memory process works by understanding logic behind something and then retroactively applying said logical process to literally reconstruct the memory). But even so, on vast majority of forums, I never had any problems with either other users or staff (and one forum I got permabanned on, it was precisely under their own version of civility rules - though these were designed to promote leftist PC atmosphere, so... kinda not comparable at all).

In short: if you want constructive forum atmosphere, best way to do it is by having constructive forum atmosphere. Rules are literally the last option you should take.

Perhaps instead of dooming about asking people to not be dicks is the end of the forum at some unspecified point in the future, there may be wisdom in giving it a week or two and actually observing with your own eyes what actually happens?

Then make a choice about deleting yourselves.

Oh, that I certainly agree with. But still, this kind of move - no matter how mild or well-intended - was guaranteed to lose you a portion of userbase. It simply smells bad to people who are likely paranoid about that stuff anyway since I assume good portion of them was hit for holding positions to the right of Lenin under guise of maintaining civility (as I was). And that is the crux of it. Or as the saying goes, he who gets burned once will blow onto the cold as well. Quite a few left-leaning forums have purged their userbase by using their sort of civility rules as a pretext, so while I do agree that whole alarm over this is kinda overblown - especially since civility rules applied fairly are exactly what leftists don't want - I also understand where it is coming from.

 

[Duke Nukem]

I'm not a mestizo dude

My country is majority white. We just aren't anglo-Saxon.

But it is hilarious how the least effected by slurs on this site are all either non whites or Latinos or Asians.

Like you'd think they'd care about our take on slurs and not be destroying people in our name when we don't really care, or at least trust us to know the difference between some edge lord and a dude who seriously thinks we are beast men.

Lemon and Zach who I think are both African American?(I have no idea why I think this except I remember glancing at a thread and seeing that) Have also been through so much shit and probably lived through the genuine article enough that I'd be surprised if they care as well but I won't put words in either of their mouths.

Not that the Sietch should become pro slurs just that I would argue its more important to focus on actual malice. Some idiot dropping the N word isn't the same thing as a dude who genuinely believes blacks are subhuman and when both are treated equally it has the unfortunate side effect of making that mindset look edgy and cool.

Which just makes it alluring.

A shame Whites get offended for non whites.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

A shame Whites get offended for non whites.

It's such a burden for them I'm sure, a white man's burden if you will.

Thing is, genuine friends are, in part, marked by their ability to say "fuck you" and worse to each other without getting angry at each other. Of course, that is after they have already become friends so... yeah. But so far, during either lurking or posting, I do not really recall any incidents where incivility led to extreme conflicts. Now, I might have missed stuff, especially since I only found this forum relatively recently, but strigently enforcing formal civility rules seems kinda overkill to me as a) 99% of people here followed them anyway and b) those 1% who didn't weren't really a problem (at least from what I have seen; correct me if I'm wrong). So basically, in my opinion you are kinda overreacting.

Just my 2c. I am not against civility, but your post (and few other Staff posts in this thread) give me impression that you are trying to achieve something which simply cannot be achieved by such measures. Basically, laws are there to cover the area where culture has failed - but your stated goal can only be achieved by culture. I do not think anyone had any problems with what I posted anywhere on this forum despite the fact that I literally do not remember any of the rules. Yes, I have read them when registering and a couple of times afterwards, but I never could remember such stuff. I usually eventually quit posting on forums where rules were too numerous and too strigently enforced because anything beyond what was self-understood as part of basic civility and forum culture was something I was never able to follow, because, again, I am literally incapable of memorizing any formal stuff - which includes the rules (just to explian, but my entire memory process works by understanding logic behind something and then retroactively applying said logical process to literally reconstruct the memory). But even so, on vast majority of forums, I never had any problems with either other users or staff (and one forum I got permabanned on, it was precisely under their own version of civility rules - though these were designed to promote leftist PC atmosphere, so... kinda not comparable at all).

In short: if you want constructive forum atmosphere, best way to do it is by having constructive forum atmosphere. Rules are literally the last option you should take.



Oh, that I certainly agree with. But still, this kind of move - no matter how mild or well-intended - was guaranteed to lose you a portion of userbase. It simply smells bad to people who are likely paranoid about that stuff anyway since I assume good portion of them was hit for holding positions to the right of Lenin under guise of maintaining civility (as I was). And that is the crux of it. Or as the saying goes, he who gets burned once will blow onto the cold as well. Quite a few left-leaning forums have purged their userbase by using their sort of civility rules as a pretext, so while I do agree that whole alarm over this is kinda overblown - especially since civility rules applied fairly are exactly what leftists don't want - I also understand where it is coming from.

And then this glorious bastard comes in here and sums up our point of contention beautifully and in a single post what it's taken fifteen god damn pages for us to do.

My hats off to you..fellow Tolkien fan, amen sir, amen..

Especially that cultural part..that's true of society on or off the net. And strident restrictions only encourage that which you do not wish to see fostered and proliferating.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

You ask for respect yet support someone who has made an effort to people he disagrees with purged and fabricate issues that don't exist.

I don't care about about Bacle's politics and quite frankly don't care about whatever forum drama you speak of, what I do know is that everytime I turn around you are belittling him like Draco Malfoy does Harry Potter on the exclusively political reason's and have repeatedly tried to bait him even if he's hit the ignore button...

Simply put using civility as a mask to hide intolerance while having the gall to patronize someone you just asserted you were the equal of cheapens the very word.

I agree that fake civility leads to trouble but is it really necessary to use slurs over any other swear other than to give the finger? Or are you just going to pull the hippie defense and claim freedom of expression?

Which is a legitimate concern that was addressed earlier. Guess we will see if it pans out.

I guess we shall...

If you don't care what someone thinks Why do you care if they toss around insults or "slurs".

Your talking about separate issues here or do you think I only live for one individual for one specific reason?

Hate speech is entirely a fiction invented to make social engineering easier.

That may be true but it was invented regardlessy and you will have no choice other than to survive by that logic or perish.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I don't care about about Bacle's politics and quite frankly don't care about whatever forum drama you speak of, what I do know is that everytime I turn around you are belittling him like Draco Malfoy does Harry Potter on the exclusively political reason's and have repeatedly tried to bait him even if he's hit the ignore button...

..Harry Potter.....Harry..Potter..

Must I spam the "read more books" meme? Because I will, making vacuous pop cultural comparisons doesn't move me much.

That may be true but it was invented regardlessy and you will have no choice other than to survive by that logic or perish.

Naw, hate speech as a concept won't survive much beyond the next 15 years..The ones who need to adapt to survive are those who are clinging to a set of principles and scare mongering tactics that have been made obsolete by their abuse and overuse.

The age of "the wrong side of history" type mindset is about to end spectacularly.

That being said, being a horrible person to someone solely because of their race is still a monumentally retarded concept and I tire of having to preface the views above with such an obvious disclaimer.

 

[Laskar]

I think the trigger happyof the sane incident made it seem like we were back at SB.

There's a good phrase for what Same did. "Fucked around and found out." If you fuck around, be prepared to find out how little tolerance people have for your nonsense.

No offense to anyone who went through that mess, but I can't help but agree that a lot of you have PTSD.

You know, a lot of the people here complaining that the mods are wound too tight could loosen up a bit themselves. I understand the initial concern, because the banner announcing the policy enforcement was worded way too strongly. But this thread has gone on for fifteen pages, and it's all because the users and the modstaff have been talking right past each other. This is the NASCAR of conversations, people. It just going round in circles, and it's taking a lot of patience for me to not change the channel.

Have a little grace, people. Have a little bit of God's grace. Assume that they're acting in good faith. Assume that they're telling the truth when they say that the rulebreaking is being done by a handful of users, and that that rulebreaking is turning people off of this forum.

In fact, go through some old threads and see how many users aren't active anymore. I'll wait.

One thing I've learned in a dozen years of cruising gun blogs is that there are some people who are fun to hang out with, and some people who are the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard. You can be rude and crude and irreverent and freewheeling without being obnoxious. That's what made the original PM so fun to be in. It had its low moments, particularly when the doomerist members got on all at once and circle-jerked, but on the whole it was more entertaining to be a part of it.

 

[Culsu]

So... was the catalyst for the recent shake-up Urabask`s outburst?

 

[GoldRanger]

Consider the Bus Stop test. If you and a few friends are chatting about stuff at a bus stop and there are several normal people hanging around at the same stop who may overhear you, would you be more careful in the words you pick?

The obvious issue here is that I might prefer to wait for a more private setting before discussing sensitive matters with my friends. Meaning I would not want to discuss things at a bus station at all. Ergo, I will not want to discuss things freely on the Sietch.

All said, I'm ambivalent about this change in enforcement. On one hand, there have been several instances where I felt uncomfortable on this site, mostly related to anti-semitism. I agree that slurs, unless spoken in an ironic manner (not just pretending to be ironic so they can be slipped in, but truly ironic) should not be tolerated.

But this also feels like a step away from my personal ideal of "the Spacebattles of old". I want to retain the ability to get angry at something and lash out a bit (to a reasonable degree) without being immediately thread-banned. If I tell someone that he's an idiot for believing X, is that an offense? It's not civil for certain, but it's also mostly harmless unless it deteriorates into a full-blown flame war.

 

[Arch Dornan]

On the matter of slurs I'm a South American immigrant and most of the people I interact with are Afro Caribbean peoples or Cubans or Dominicans and I get called "the spic" all the time by the Jamaicans and Bajans in the group. Its not done in racism and even if it was I wouldn't care.

Slurs have the power that we give them.

No more and no less.

Hate speech is entirely a fiction invented to make social engineering easier.

I don't what'll happen with the slurs issue if you keep using those you use for the South American ones. I don't give a fuck but maybe someone with mod authority does.

Maybe I'm just ignorant about the ones you put in if they're not slurs. I like hearing about them. They're hilarious.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I don't what'll happen with the slurs issue if you keep using those you use for the South American ones. I don't give a fuck but maybe someone with mod authority does.

Maybe I'm just ignorant about the ones you put in if they're not slurs. I like hearing about them. They're hilarious.

You mean my posts about the different kinds of white supremacy and how they all fight each other? The stuff that Graal and I covered and so on?

Naww I think that falls under informative. As we are relaying data rather than just laughing uproariously and literally calling all the posters here from Germany mud hut dwelling Snow Apes. Celts "stone worshipping drunken Hibernian conspiracy bros" and Mediterraneans "dead Jew on a stick worshipping cucks". So much as expounding on the absurdity of a nuanced and diverse racial supremacist bloc of sub cultures.

Plus a few of those posts were liked by mods so I think the educational nature of those posts were pretty clear cut. They'd have just deleted those posts or temp banned my ass otherwise.

@LordSunhawk or @bullethead or whoever else can correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I get is that you aren't going to get banned for citing examples for an informative purpose.

 

[Xilizhra]

I feel like there are a number of Memri TV jokes I could make, but I will instead simply say "hello there" and hope that the new civility kick works out for you.

 

[MelancholicMechanicus]

I literally cannot check my own posts cause I was banned from the forum they were placed @Fallout-Man101 and unless there is something seriously wrong with my head you are lying. There was never anything between the parenthesis other than question marks. Unless I put a "nigga what" there and it was edites out by a mod which would be not only hilariously stupid but also open a completly new rabbit hole of "mods can edit user posts".

 

[ShadowArxxy]

@LordSunhawk or @bullethead or whoever else can correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I get is that you aren't going to get banned for citing examples for an informative purpose.

I'm pretty confident so, since I recall for certain @LordSunhawk condemning the "selectively strict liability" enforcement of SB and SV staff with regard to "not noticing" or falsely claiming that no one reported the use of full-fledged slurs by favored users, but banhammering disliked users for slurs even when quoting someone else or making "in character" use of terms in the context of a story.

What's being enforced here and now is clearcut cases of absolutely intentional use of a slur as a slur. As such, I strongly disagree with the argument that it's any sort of a slippery slope.