Civic Nationalism or Ethnic Nationalism?

[Zachowon]

Oh yeah, they do in the UK as well, the amount of 'NHS workers are foreign' and 'WW1 Indian soldiers!' is ballaching. I mean the NHS alone is only around 20% non ethnically English; but those same workers account for nearly half of all malpractice cases. The whole 'you clap for us now' advert was a stellar example of the sick mindset that our leaders and academics and middle class all have.

As an aside the NHS is shit, like it's a barely strung together system that doesn't fucking work, before my degree I had to put the time in doing the unpaid work you need before going into medicine (I'll not be going through to medicine anymore because of my experience working in the NHS, and instead doing my degree in genetics.) and the NHS is basically a zombie. It also fucks your ability to go private because things like BUPA (a paid for insurance) also goes through the NHS; it's like an even worse form of what the left 'reeeeee's about in the American system. Our taxes are used to fund a bullshit system that doesn't work (I could rant all day about the wasteful shit I've seen in hospitals.) The same with the benefits system actually, universal credit doesn't help anyone; but the systems that are there to get you off of universal credit are basically 'get a job lol' and then give you basic english lessons before kicking you out the door.

It's gotten to the point where we have drug addicts begging the government to not give them money because they'll buy drugs and instead to just pay their landlord the universal credit; it's like we took the most insane route possible and went 'fuck it lol' and then went even more beyond that. We live in a mad police state, but the police are such cucked wimps and in such low underfunded numbers that you'll never notice it until you get slammed with a criminal record you can't appeal, are not entitled to review and don't even have to be informed by the police that it exists (the PIP's system.).

Our police state doesn't even have the teeth to properly get the jackboot on you. It's mad, our police won't come out for a burglary or an assault so while there are laws that would slam you in jail for life for defending your property, our police are spread so thin policing twitter (yes really) that taking a golf club to the guy stealing your bike 9/10 won't have consequences.

EDIT TO RANT SOME MORE:
Like domestic violence, the polices go to system for beating your wife is to give both people a criminal record, then fuck off and charities step in and do the work for them. It's insane, who the fuck takes an outside enforced MAD approach to wife beating?
"Don't slap your wife or I'll shotgun your knees, also woman; don't piss off your husband so he slaps you or I'll shotgun your knees as well" Is not a good fucking way of going about dealing with DV.

I am English; we have strong opinions on everything that isn't us. Probably how the Empire was made actually.
"Say, Nicholas, do you see that brown fellow over there?"
'Yes James?'
"I say, is he not behaving like we would expect others to?"
'By jove you're right! Cheeky bugger isn't he!'
"Hahaha yes, get the field guns and chains then. Tally Ho"
- First contact between Africa and the UK.



Oh I know, I was using it the same way I would use Afro-Caribbean for the UK; there are lots of groups of Blacks in America and the UK, but the largest one shown is that. the 'What are you' pages on paperwork are always pretty funny in my workplace; they seem to have been made by a madcap mixing machine because I've seen 'English-Irish' and 'Irish-English' on an ID form, along with 'Non-English' and 'Other' on the same page, which surely would be the same thing.

Rhat makes sense but not what I was getting at

Pretty sure he's ppintong out that blacks(like me) exsit. Who fully identify as American and fully reject the term "African American". I am an American no descriptors needed. Besides Africans were the ones who sold my anscetor to whites screw those guys.

Yeah that basically. It is more of a term one should use for when they are talking aboutmsomeone from that country that now lives in another.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Most fundamentally - nations are not dirt, nations are not paper, nations are not cloth, nations are not lines on the ground. A nation is a people with a shared identity and that identity often includes ethnicity, religion, culture, language, traditions and so on - though it can sometimes not have one or more of those things. Just because you're standing on some patch of dirt across some line on the ground doesn't make you part of a nation. Just because you have some sheet of paper doesn't make you part of a nation. Just because you're living under the same flag doesn't make you a part of a nation.

Neither does having the same blood though. Alot of Jews Including thier homeland reject Soros for example. By blood he's part of "the Jewish nation" so to speak. Yet his beliefs be behavior seem to be totally anethma to Jews. I'd say that makes him not an actual Jew even if he shares the genes.

 

[Abhorsen]

Neither does having the same blood though. Alot of Jews Including thier homeland reject Soros for example. By blood he's part of "the Jewish nation" so to speak. Yet his beliefs be behavior seem to be totally anethma to Jews. I'd say that makes him not an actual Jew even if he shares the genes.

Also, there is a surprising number of muslims who consider themselves Israelies first, notably Bedouins and the Druze. Recently, some Israeli Arab Muslims are joining the Army, and beginning to identify as Israeli first. Currently, about 500 of the Arabic Muslims serve, but that number is increasing rapidly. The Druze themselves are heavily nationalistic, even joining zionist groups. They serve in the army to an insane degree. Too many are joining elite units for their normal Druze unit to be fully staffed.

 

[ShieldWife]

Neither does having the same blood though. Alot of Jews Including thier homeland reject Soros for example. By blood he's part of "the Jewish nation" so to speak. Yet his beliefs be behavior seem to be totally anethma to Jews. I'd say that makes him not an actual Jew even if he shares the genes.

Probably a high percentage of American Jews agree with a lot of Soros' politics. Though that is neither here nor there.

Yeah, nationality doesn't have to involve blood, but sometimes it can. Would Sweden still be Sweden if the majority of the people there had Middle Eastern or African ancestry? I'd say no, probably not.

A lot of the issue of ethnicity is tied up with the political baggage surrounding it. Let's take Hispanics in the USA for example. There have been Hispanic people in America since the earliest days. In Louisiana, for example, there are a lot of people with Spanish names going all they way back to when the colonial Spanish controlled the area. But they weren't a political entity, they spoke English, saw themselves as Americans, and it was no big deal. That was even the case as recently as the 1950's and 1960's. Desi Arnaz was a Cuban actor who came to America and married a famous white American actress Lucille Ball. It was the 1950's but it wasn't a scandal, people didn't make a big deal about it being an interracial relationship, their show was one of the most popular on TV. I'd say that there would be more political baggage associated with that relationship today than back then.

Because Hispanics became a political entity. Instead of just somebody with a particular accent, they have become a nation apart with a shared ethnic interest that motivates voting and activism. This is probably for two reason, they are now coming in such large numbers that they can form their own communities and don't need to assimilate as well as small numbers would, and because the left actively discourages assimilation and undermines national identity in favor of ethnicity identity for minorities.

In theory, multiethnic nations can have a strong sense of civic national identity, but in practice ethnic diversity is being used quite effectively to destroy national identity.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Probably a high percentage of American Jews agree with a lot of Soros' politics. Though that is neither here nor there.

Yeah, nationality doesn't have to involve blood, but sometimes it can. Would Sweden still be Sweden if the majority of the people there had Middle Eastern or African ancestry? I'd say no, probably not.

A lot of the issue of ethnicity is tied up with the political baggage surrounding it. Let's take Hispanics in the USA for example. There have been Hispanic people in America since the earliest days. In Louisiana, for example, there are a lot of people with Spanish names going all they way back to when the colonial Spanish controlled the area. But they weren't a political entity, they spoke English, saw themselves as Americans, and it was no big deal. That was even the case as recently as the 1950's and 1960's. Desi Arnaz was a Cuban actor who came to America and married a famous white American actress Lucille Ball. It was the 1950's but it wasn't a scandal, people didn't make a big deal about it being an interracial relationship, their show was one of the most popular on TV. I'd say that there would be more political baggage associated with that relationship today than back then.

Because Hispanics became a political entity. Instead of just somebody with a particular accent, they have become a nation apart with a shared ethnic interest that motivates voting and activism. This is probably for two reason, they are now coming in such large numbers that they can form their own communities and don't need to assimilate as well as small numbers would, and because the left actively discourages assimilation and undermines national identity in favor of ethnicity identity for minorities.

In theory, multiethnic nations can have a strong sense of civic national identity, but in practice ethnic diversity is being used quite effectively to destroy national identity.

That's unfortunately true but still I'm far more American then say. A Wasp marxist professor from Massachusetts. Yet he's a white man directly descended from the first Americans. While I'm the product of African slaves and German immigrant's. Is also point out the simple fact that the folks doing what you say. Are overwhelmingly white middle and upper class "Americans" by gentics. Are they more American then me? Then my African ansecrtors who fought and bleed for America? Then my little sister who put her life at risk in Iraq? Then my other sister who served as a Marine? I say no the Euros can do whatever they want. America is a set of ideals not gentics especially since the ones wanting her destruction. Are as I said above overwhelminly from the majority Gentic tribe here.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

They did that by completely changing (or the world changed around them) what their party was. Would you be a republican if you supported a welfare state? or workplace quotas? Or reparations? Changing your platform to match your opposition to steal their votes isn't winning, it's joining the other side. It's like the 'gays will join the conservatives!' thing.

EDIT: Like, I'm not saying it's impossible but I wouldn't be willing to bet mine and my childrens future on it, and the situation in the USA is very, very different to the UK; but non white Americans seem to vote massively for welfare; and they seem to vote for the party that panders for welfare. BAME people do the same in the UK; and changing to pander to those people is not 'winning' it's rolling over.

There are individuals who can do good and have done good and will do good; but for the most part the majority act as an anchor around the nations neck. I don't want the UK to be some beady eyed anglo utopia of tea, crumpets and massive front teeth; but I do want my nation to remain English and a Pakistani, or an indian, or a chinese will not and has never been English. No amount of 'but muh Irish wasn't seen as white (they were, it's a complete crock of shit that comes from a joke comic)' will change that. You can come and live in the UK in small numbers, and sure settle and have kids that will eventually be mixed in to the point where they are essentially indistinguishable, but until you are indistinguishable you will never be English. Sure the USA might be cool and fine and dandy because you guys have been in the past, but being honest in the past it was whites that were running shit.

Africans, and BAME people do not build the sort of civilisations that I would ever in a million years want to live in, and sure it's entirely possible that it was 100% the white mans fault that they started off and remained as shitholes to this day; but again I am not willing to bet my children's future on that, nor their childrens and so on so forth. I don't hate other people, or other cultures; but I do love mine, and a big part of my culture is that it is ethnically english; no different from a black man having an ethnically black culture.

Further to that while I love the idea of civic nationalist idea of everyone being congealed into this wonderful culture; no other cunt seems to actually want that. When BAME people come over here they don't integrate, they form ethnic conclaves, in the USA African Americans form ethnic conclaves, asian Americans form ethnic conclaves and in the UK at least everyone but the English definitely compete and act and think along ethnic lines. I am unwilling to give ground in my own country to a non English person, and I am unwilling to act as an individual when our girls are being raped and abused and our cities essentially colonised along ethnic lines rather than individual lines.


I like America, I've worked in America for a good while (NYS, Mass, Arizona) and I loved it while I was there; I love the idea of your culture and your ideals but the Black people in America do not seem to think that you are all one lovely melting pot considering how heavily they vote for the party of 'give me free shit' and how readily they devour the idea that they are as people oppressed and put down by white Americans on a structural and constant level. You - like us - have a toxic and cancerous academia, but one that has found fertile ground to grow.

Hahahaha Hahahaha holy shit a "muh party flip" out in the wild, it's been a while. The parties haven't changed as much as you think, and no, propagandizing and gaslighting a group you've demoralized and impoverished into thinking youre their benefactor does not actually make you their legitimate advocate.
The confederates are still the confederates, they just feed the masses a line of bullshit to "keep those niggers on the reservation"

 

[LifeisTiresome]

Some countries in Europe have their identities so intertwined with their linguistic/cultural identity. This however was also the root of the worse conflict and bloodshed in Europe. Because what happens if someone who lives in the nation doesn't fit in the cleanly crafted lines crafted by ethnic nationalism? Do they not deserve rights and treatment much like everyone else? This was the problem with Hungarian Nationalism in the mid 19th century which was why the Hungarian Revolution under Lajos Kossuth failed so hard. After having won independence for most of Hungary (The Apostolic Kingdom, not the tiny modern version) aside from the Kingdom of Croatia which was still loyal to the Habsburgs, there came the question of who were the Hungarians. The obvious answer would be the Magyars right? Well no since there were many other ethnic groups living in these regions like the Romanians in Transylvania, the Slavs in Slavonia, the Czechs in the North, etc. Many of these people had their own autonomy and had generally considered themselves as part of the Kingdom of Hungary since they were historically part of it. But thanks to this new wave of Ethnic Nationalism the view of what Hungarian was now skewed. Now it was more tied to being an Ethnic Magyar. The new Hungarian government then began pursuing a policy of "Magyarization" where they forcibly imposed Magyar culture on the other Hungarian to homogenize the population to create one Hungarian people. This policy backfired massively. Initially many of these other ethnic groups supported the Hungarians in the fight for independence soon turned against them because of this. This drove them back into the arms of the Habsburg Crown which was able to use this internal division in Hungary to finally put down the Rebellion. While Austria received Russian help, its likely that even without it, the Hungarian Revolution's days were numbered. This is generally why I'm not opposed to monarchies as they can act as symbols unifying many disparate peoples around a common idea.

This is why the UK even though its effectively a Crowned Republic by this point still stands. Its united by the historical continuity of its monarchy and traditions. If the UK were strictly a Republic it likely would have collapsed by now since there would be no real added weight of the title of the United Kingdom. Being a Kingdom, technically referendums for independence are not really binding as the unification of the crowns of Scotland, Wales and England through dynastic unification.

True enough. You need something to unite the people.

Personally, I consider myself as stateless or of no nationality. I was raised more by the internet then by my families ethnic groups. I don't much care for the government or the corporations. I don't hate nations or anything like that.

I will say though that I can actually understand ethnic nationalists pov even though I don't much care about ethnic nationalism myself.

Consider this, if Japan imports Arabs and they became the majority with their own culture. Can one still really consider Japan, Japan? No. In name only is it Japan. The culture and things that make Japan, Japan could well disappear to be replaced by the emerging culture of the new majority.

Thats sad to me cause a culture disappears and what makes Japan entertainment Japanese would disappear and all one would have would be the old stuff.

 

[Senor Hortler]

Hahahaha Hahahaha holy shit a "muh party flip" out in the wild, it's been a while. The parties haven't changed as much as you think, and no, propagandizing and gaslighting a group you've demoralized and impoverished into thinking youre their benefactor does not actually make you their legitimate advocate.
The confederates are still the confederates, they just feed the masses a line of bullshit to "keep those niggers on the reservation"

They have done a 'muh party flip' yes, they went from being literal advocates of owning slaves to advocating a welfare state and gibs; sure the end result is that they can keep the blacks 'on reservation' as it were; but that's not relevant since we're talking about the way the blacks vote and what they vote for. What they vote for is what the democrats push out, can the Republicans offer a counter to 'free shit' that isn't the same and is something that they would go for?

Whether or not the Democrats engage in low expectations bigotry is not relevant; what is relevant is that the policies that make the democrats the democrats are very popular with black Americans.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

They have done a 'muh party flip' yes, they went from being literal advocates of owning slaves to advocating a welfare state and gibs; sure the end result is that they can keep the blacks 'on reservation' as it were; but that's not relevant since we're talking about the way the blacks vote and what they vote for. What they vote for is what the democrats push out, can the Republicans offer a counter to 'free shit' that isn't the same and is something that they would go for?

Whether or not the Democrats engage in low expectations bigotry is not relevant; what is relevant is that the policies that make the democrats the democrats are very popular with black Americans.

So to be clear you're arguing that yes, in fact, tricking someone into thinking you're advocating for them using propaganda and sociological manipulation is the same as advocating for them?

 

[Senor Hortler]

So to be clear you're arguing that yes, in fact, tricking someone into thinking you're advocating for them using propaganda and sociological manipulation is the same as advocating for them?

No. What I am saying is that blacks vote democrat because the policies that the democrats put out to cater to black voters appeal to black voters. That those policies are largely condescending asspats doesn't matter because black voters vote for them anyway. Republicans do not offer the 'free' (in the sense that anything from the government is free) shit and asspats that democrats offer. So banking on winning over black voters who massivelt support free shit and asspats without giving them more of that and essentially just becoming democrats lite doesn't seem the best move.

How did you get 'democrats advocate for blacks' from my post when I specifically stated that what they advocated for was a welfare state and that they engaged in low expectation bigotry?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Republicans do not offer the 'free' (in the sense that anything from the government is free) shit and asspats that democrats offer.

Honestly, what CAN Republicans offer them aside from less taxes and regulations?

If you’re not giving “free” stuff, then you’re fucking evil

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Honestly, what CAN Republicans offer them aside from less taxes and regulations?

If you’re not giving “free” stuff, then you’re fucking evil

Economic opportunity. The chance to move up the economic ladder and not be kept down by the man...which is pretty much how welfare is being used.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Economic opportunity. The chance to move up the economic ladder and not be kept down by the man...which is pretty much how welfare is being used.

Unfortunately they believe they are still chained down, unless they’re treated specially then they’re not treated fairly

Black Republicans and similar are a walking contradiction to this defeatist mindset of theirs and one that goes against the idea that the world is against them

 

[Senor Hortler]

Economic opportunity. The chance to move up the economic ladder and not be kept down by the man...which is pretty much how welfare is being used.

The republicans have always offered that and the black community has as a rule generally just shrugged and voted for free stuff instead. What incentives are there for black Americans who have been shovel fed that the white Americans are evil monsters that hate them and keep them down and owe them the world? If you academia teaches entitlement and your media teaches entitlement then by and large you will as they have vote for the party that agres with that and pays lip service over the party that asks you to stand and try and fail on your own two feet. This has been the case for the past 40 years. Why would it change now?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Unfortunately they believe they are still chained down, unless they’re treated specially then they’re not treated fairly

Black Republicans and similar are a walking contradiction to this defeatist mindset of theirs and one that goes against the idea that the world is against them

Crying shame, especially since how well the African American community did in spite of having much against them, If they weren't sabotaged they'd probably be doing even better today.

The republicans have always offered that and the black community has as a rule generally just shrugged and voted for free stuff instead. What incentives are there for black Americans who have been shovel fed that the white Americans are evil monsters that hate them and keep them down and owe them the world? If you academia teaches entitlement and your media teaches entitlement then by and large you will as they have vote for the party that agres with that and pays lip service over the party that asks you to stand and try and fail on your own two feet. This has been the case for the past 40 years. Why would it change now?

I am sure we could generate infinite power off of MLK and Malcom X,'s spinning because I doubt this is what they wanted for the Black Community. They both wanted emancipation, though from what I understand MLK had the right of it. And now their successors seem to want their community member kept in chains, kept in the cave so to speak, forced to look at mere phantasm of political reality. Not able to see that there is something better for them out there and take it. Not being able to take mastery of their destiny because the wool has been pulled over their eyes and that men that once chained their bodies, have now chained their minds. Don't think the Democrats ever chained, they just switched tactics.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Senor Hortler
@Hlaalu Agent
Maybe it won't be the government changing things, but individuals and technology

Public Schooling & Colleges? Well, if people start turning to the internet for their education, even they wouldn't bother with school as it'd be cheaper and less time consuming to just be at home using the internet for it

And if they REALLY believe the world is against them, well even public schools and colleges must be out to get them, so why waste time being with bigots over there?

Actually have skills & great work ethic and so happen to be not a CisWhite Heterosexual Male? Well, your pride will be hurt when you see the local Diversity Hire lording it over and NOT being your "brother/sister" and you're pissed at that asshole getting the job whilst you were ignored because you weren't using politics

Yes, very unlikely, but one can hope

Even if they're a minority of a "minority", they can separate and be an example.....they will probably be purposely ignored by the MSM though

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

No. What I am saying is that blacks vote democrat because the policies that the democrats put out to cater to black voters appeal to black voters. That those policies are largely condescending asspats doesn't matter because black voters vote for them anyway. Republicans do not offer the 'free' (in the sense that anything from the government is free) shit and asspats that democrats offer. So banking on winning over black voters who massivelt support free shit and asspats without giving them more of that and essentially just becoming democrats lite doesn't seem the best move.

How did you get 'democrats advocate for blacks' from my post when I specifically stated that what they advocated for was a welfare state and that they engaged in low expectation bigotry?

Right, so the fact that you can propagandize and demoralize a people suggests that they are genetically incompatible with a society you've poisoned them against?

Blacks were integrating just fine (and steeply voting republican) until we started this brave new world shit with the democrats. You might as well say that russians are incompatible with democracy because they were convinced to support communism.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Right, so the fact that you can propagandize and demoralize a people suggests that they are genetically incompatible with a society you've poisoned them against?

Blacks were integrating just fine (and steeply voting republican) until we started this brave new world shit with the democrats. You might as well say that russians are incompatible with democracy because they were convinced to support communism.

I did allude to that as well. I do agree it is patently ridiculous to say so.

 

[Senor Hortler]

Right, so the fact that you can propagandize and demoralize a people suggests that they are genetically incompatible with a society you've poisoned them against?

Except Blacks weren't 'propagandized' to vote Democrat, they did it because the democrats started giving them shit, starting as far back as the New Deal, and continuing on to today. Blacks vote massively in line with other blacks and they all trend towards voting for getting free shit from the government. Why would they change. That's what I am asking you, straight up: What can you offer to Black voters that will appeal to them and will not change what the Replublican party is for?

Blacks were integrating just fine (and steeply voting republican) until we started this brave new world shit with the democrats. You might as well say that russians are incompatible with democracy because they were convinced to support communism.

I mean first off they definitely weren't 'integrating just fine' you guys had to send in the army to integrate them into the school system and they still engaged in living in segregated communities (and still do to this day) away from white Americans. Secondly they voted republican because the Republicans were the 'free the slaves' guys and the moment the democrats started offering them free shit they flipped and turned blue, starting with just voting for Roosevelt himself out of what seemed to be spite over southern laws and then flipping entirely when the Dems started promising gibs

What I am saying is that the Blacks in America vote for the party that will give them free things, they do not like you, they do not see themselves as the same as you and they are entirely unegaged from the Republic idea of individuals taking responsibility for themselves; what have you got to offer them that they cannot get from the Dems? That they would want from you? I don't vote labour because their policies and ideas are akin to nationwide economic suicide; no amount of people going 'nah labours cool to white guys who really dig chess yo' is going to make me vote labour because at the end of the day their policies are not policies that I will ever agree with. Them being friendly to me doesn't change that; the only way I would vote labour is if they stopped being labour.

Also as an aside would you be fine with replacing 13% of your population with Russians from the USSR when it was at its height? Because that's essentially what you've got, a people who may have been 'brainwashed' by the Dems and stooges in MSM and academia, but that doesn't change what they vote for, the intention of the people above them being bad won't stop them from voting Dem in overwhelming numbers and then what's the plan? 'Nah, it's cool because we got like 20% of the black vote!' Congrats, you didn't get the other 80% and now you've lost. What happens then? The Dems get free reign to do all the stupid shit they want and you get locked out of government. But it's cool because 'At LeaAsT i aWSNT racis!'

 

[Cherico]

Actually I'd argue things are changing in the black community.

Its been 2 generations now since the civil rights era, things in the community are not doing well and haven't been doing well for a long time. And blaming the republicans doesn't work any more because republicans have been excised from power in these communities for some times well over 30 years. So after all of this time and the increasing crazy and things getting worse your finally having people start to leave the democratic party.

Will it be a total shift I doubt it but you will see more people leave.