United States Christianity, History, and US Politics

[King Arts]

It has nothing to do with being a Protestant. You have at least one Protestant (Battlegrinder) in this very thread schooling the person on Christian theology soundly who's expressed the underlying theology more thoroughly than any of the Catholics or Orthodox posters have, who mostly seem to be content just sniping at "Protestants" even while said Protestant does the heavy lifting in argument.

No, it has to do with the fact that Lutheran is a "Mainstream" denomination in the US. Mainstream denominations in the US, which includes Catholics by the way, seriously lost their way starting in the 1920s and 30s with the Modernist / Fundamentalist split, where the Modernists decided small unimportant things like "Christ wasn't a real historical person" and "miracles didn't happen" were more important and that Christianity was more about the "social gospel". They utterly lost their way theologically starting with the colleges meant to teach pastors, meanwhile the Catholics lost any and all spine, allowed homosexuals to use their schools to hide in and then making them priests and enabling them to abuse children all while actively covering it up, so don't pretend being Papist makes you any better. Anyway, it makes sense then that a layperson coming out of that tradition would have an utterly incomplete understanding of theology and scripture.

This is also why Battlegrinder is able to explain things accurately to the point where he's a Prot you likely didn't even notice. He's from the Evangelical sect of Protestant Christianity in the US, who are descended from the Fundamentalists of the aforementioned Modernist/Fundamentalist schism, which retained an orthodox understanding and placement of Scripture and theology.

Also, you really have a misconception of what Protestants accept. Protip: Protestants, especially of the Evangelical strain, DO study and adhere to early Church tradition, and most hold that to be considered Christian one must also agree with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed (it's constantly reprinted in Evangelical Churches). Are there Protestant sects that reject them? Sure, and most other Protestant consider those groups to be at best, non-Christian to at worst cults (IE Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons have rocky relationships with other Protestant-descended denominations).

But I'm sure that doesn't matter, since it seems you don't care about theology, you seem more to care about dissing on Prots, even while it is Prots fighting on the front line of the culture war while your precious Papal Church sits back and virtue signals to the Progressive Left that it really isn't so bad, look the Pope cares about the Environment and holds Capitalism to be a worse evil than Communism! Ain't you hip and cool?! Oh sure, you hold that Abortion is a terrible Sin against Goid, but can't be assed to actually take a REAL stand on the topic by Priests and Bishops by excommunicating or at least denying communion to politicians who continue to support it institutionally, that would be CRASS and might result in losing your precious TAX BREAKS.

Give me a break, this constant dunking on Prots by Catholics and Orthodox is some of the most transparent cope I've ever seen. Yeah, sure, Evangelicals have issues, but they're at least actually still fighting.

Yeah I’m not Catholic I’m Orthodox. So like the Pope doing the wrong thing doesn’t really say to much about us because we don’t think that the Pope is the supreme leader of Christendom.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Evangelicals and Catholics are the largest two main factions of Christianity in the US, and the conservative elements of both should really be more focused on working together against progressivism and heretical teachings in the Church than on the historical theological divisions between Protestant and Catholic.

I do not disagree with that. I am a disagreeable ass, it is known. If I have offended or scandalized thee, I do apologize.

While I must be on my guard against the error of indifferentism, on the prudential level, I do fully support a new Holly Alliance.

Holy Alliance - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[King Arts]

Anyway, the thing about Protestantism is two fold first I take shots at them because a lot of them act uneducated and sometimes ask questions like "are you catholic or Christian." Which I find kind of disrespectful towards my Catholic brothers since they are an ancient Church, true it has occasionally slipped into corruption but all man made institutions have. The second issue I have with Protestants is a bit more practical. There are so many of them. I don't mean in total numbers I mean in different sects and denominations. It makes it hard to know where one group lies, some are absolute heretics who aren't Christian with women priests, and gay clergy and saying shit like trans people are divine. But others are perfectly acceptable and have good ideas on how society is to be run and how Christians should act in regards to morality like conservative Baptists. But even with them this second problem raises it's head you can go through a city and see a dozen first Baptist churches, and I always think when is the second one going to be built? Now you don't have to have a world spanning authority that obeys one man, I understand Baptists don't want a new papacy. But some order and unity is needed so that Baptist Churches in a city answer to one bishop of that city, and that Bishop answers to a higher Bishop in charge of the nation, or the state they are in for America. I mean I can understand if the Church is being actively oppressed like in China or communist Soviet Union you might need to keep it small and decentralized but America hasn't reached that level yet.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

In these latter days, we find ourselves fighting the devil in hand to hand combat inside our churches. I’m all for friendly rivalry and good natured ribbing, as iron sharpens iron, but he who fights on my side is my brother no matter his Bishop or lack thereof.

This doesn’t mean that differences of ecclesiology or theology don’t matter, just that frankly it’s all above our pay grade anyway.

Do the good in front of you.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Also, @Bacle keep in mind you're arguing with the kind of people who think natural disasters are the invisible sky daddy's way of arbitrarily punishing the general population because one too many fellas like it up the bum and the government didn't do enough to demonise them for it. Never mind all the stuff about how it's not their place to judge sinners, or how one should turn the other cheek, they've found one rule they're not even tempted to break and by gosh they're going to show daddy just what good boys they can be by trying to enforce that one rule whilst ignoring any that do get in their way.

Invisible sky daddy? What is this 2004? Are you fucking twelve? And what kind of absolute Mook makes fun of something 90% of the species believes in, in one form or another? What kind of emotionally retarded, arrested development asshole thinks having faith is a legitimate character defect?

Grow the fuck up.

Christians were celebrating the Nativity of Christ on December 25th before the Edict of Milan which means they can't have 'stolen Christmas' from 'Yule'. Is reading difficult for you?

But but muh Vikings! Muh Wicca! Muh dirt goddess dindunuffin! Your dead goddess was a whore and she demanded the sacrifice of babies.

Any way, amusingly enough the historiocity of the Nazareen carpenter and luminous figure is only in doubt by frauds that even the modern soy infused scraggly bearded self hating professors decry.

 

[LordsFire]

But some order and unity is needed so that Baptist Churches in a city answer to one bishop of that city, and that Bishop answers to a higher Bishop in charge of the nation, or the state they are in for America. I mean I can understand if the Church is being actively oppressed like in China or communist Soviet Union you might need to keep it small and decentralized but America hasn't reached that level yet.

Why does one church need to answer to another? The only authority above the level of a specific church community I see in scripture is Apostolic authority, and aside from the Catholics' claims about the papacy, I'm not aware of any claims to modern Apostolic authority.

Christ's sacrifice and ressurection removed the need for a priesthood between man and God. What need is there to try to reassert one?

Now, there's certainly some good use for organization and grouping together in common tasks, but non-denominational organizations like Youth for Christ, Arab World Mission, the Doulos/Logos organization, etc, can fulfill that role without needing to claim authority over other church communities.

 

[ShieldWife]

I remember back when some prominent preacher said that Hurricane Katrina was God’s punishment, I recall everybody condemned it. I don’t think that a very high percentage of Christians think that natural disasters are God’s punishments. I know a lot of devout Christians and I’ve never heard any of them express that sentiment.

 

[S'task]

Anyway, the thing about Protestantism is two fold first I take shots at them because a lot of them act uneducated and sometimes ask questions like "are you catholic or Christian." Which I find kind of disrespectful towards my Catholic brothers since they are an ancient Church, true it has occasionally slipped into corruption but all man made institutions have.

As I pointed out before, I haven't seen such crap here, so lashing out at the Prots here who haven't done that to you or to the Catholics is, well, kinda being an ass. If they do, then sure, fire back (to the degree which civility allows), but the constant sniping at the Prots here, most of whom come from the conservative branches that haven't been corrupted as far as I can tell, just serves to divide those who should be allies in a larger ideological conflict.

The second issue I have with Protestants is a bit more practical. There are so many of them. I don't mean in total numbers I mean in different sects and denominations. It makes it hard to know where one group lies, some are absolute heretics who aren't Christian with women priests, and gay clergy and saying shit like trans people are divine. But others are perfectly acceptable and have good ideas on how society is to be run and how Christians should act in regards to morality like conservative Baptists. But even with them this second problem raises it's head you can go through a city and see a dozen first Baptist churches, and I always think when is the second one going to be built? Now you don't have to have a world spanning authority that obeys one man, I understand Baptists don't want a new papacy. But some order and unity is needed so that Baptist Churches in a city answer to one bishop of that city, and that Bishop answers to a higher Bishop in charge of the nation, or the state they are in for America. I mean I can understand if the Church is being actively oppressed like in China or communist Soviet Union you might need to keep it small and decentralized but America hasn't reached that level yet.

That I can understand, heck, most Protestants can't keep them all straight anymore, as many are even now undergoing their own schism.

But, to greatly simplify, there's two main groups of Protestants in the United States: The "Mainstream" and the "Evangelicals". The simple way of looking at it is that Mainstream Protestants are those who's church organization date back to the American Colonial period and very early Republic Period (IE, before 1800). These are groups like the Presbyterians, the Methodists, Anglicans and Episcopal, etc. Basically if it has a formal name you've heard of that isn't "Baptist", then it's probably a Mainstream Protestant Church. These Churches tend to be on a national scale, have considerable history and money, and be the organization that founded many prestigious universities in the US.

Evangelicals mainly developed in the middle 20th century as a grassroots, for lack of a better term, reformationist movement that grew out of the Fundamentalist who split off from the Mainstream Protestants when they began embracing Modernism in the early 20th century. They vary wildly in size and origin... some with not so clean origins while others are just organically grown. They lack hierarchy and tend to be much more individual standing Churches due to this origin (bear in mind, they functionally originated from the orthodox Christians who were jettisoned by the Mainstream Protestants, and thus stripped from the already existing hierarchies and having no hierarchies to enter into), some have gone on to create larger church hierarchy, while others maintain more independence. Given that the movement is less than 100 years old, lack of those hierarchies make sense, they've been slowing having to build up an entire alternative support system from the ground up, all while under constant siege and marginalization by society at large (and, also due to this disjointed nature, it means individual churches can be corrupted fairly easily, and there's no shortage of grifters who set up cult of personality megachurches who fall under this title who are of dubious orthodoxy).

The exception to this is the Southern Baptists who originated as a geographical schism of the Baptists over, well, segregation, but since have spread out from that and are no longer strictly a "southern US" organization (though they still are more common in the South). While having a very different origin than the other Evangelical sects, they tend to be lumped in with them rather than the Mainstream due to their origination in the 20th century, rather than the 18th or 17th century.

Between these two you have a lot of various Christian "Others". In the middle to late 19th century you saw a bunch of moonbat "Christian" sects or dubious orthodoxy pop up across the US, from the Mormons (who were most successful) to things like the "Christian Scientists" to the "Seventh Day Adventists" and many others. These are usually tracked as their own thing or as "others" since they tend to be really small if still around. Most are of comparable size to, if not smaller than, the number of Orthodox in the country, and so while some of them have some truly heretical

 

[Battlegrinder]

I remember back when some prominent preacher said that Hurricane Katrina was God’s punishment, I recall everybody condemned it. I don’t think that a very high percentage of Christians think that natural disasters are God’s punishments. I know a lot of devout Christians and I’ve never heard any of them express that sentiment.

The closest I've ever heard is some humorous gripping about the local weather, stuff along the lines "alright, whoever was praying for rain, the lord has heard you. Now please stop, the rest of us like to drive to work and not swim there".

 

[Bacle]

I remember back when some prominent preacher said that Hurricane Katrina was God’s punishment, I recall everybody condemned it. I don’t think that a very high percentage of Christians think that natural disasters are God’s punishments. I know a lot of devout Christians and I’ve never heard any of them express that sentiment.

How much social media do you look at, and for how long?

Because I've seen religious people on Twitter say the damn Wu Flu is 'God's Punishment' for allowing 'degeneracy' and 'immorality' to exist or grow in the US and world.

And this is hardly the first time I've seen Christians claim a natural disaster or man-made disaster, was 'God's Wrath' for some perceived societal sin of one sort or another.

 

[Bear Ribs]

How much social media do you look at, and for how long?

Because I've seen religious people on Twitter say the damn Wu Flu is 'God's Punishment' for allowing 'degeneracy' and 'immorality' to exist or grow in the US and world.

And this is hardly the first time I've seen Christians claim a natural disaster or man-made disaster, was 'God's Wrath' for some perceived societal sin of one sort or another.

I'll agree they exist, I've seen them myself, but do you know how large or influential such groups are? I mean, it's really easy to find a few handfuls of wackos in a country as large as the US. Heck there's an estimated 12 million people who believe alien reptilians secretly control the White House. I'd be more comfortable with some numbers beyond "Christians Claim" for that reason.

 

[Battlegrinder]

How much social media do you look at, and for how long?

Because I've seen religious people on Twitter say the damn Wu Flu is 'God's Punishment' for allowing 'degeneracy' and 'immorality' to exist or grow in the US and world.

And this is hardly the first time I've seen Christians claim a natural disaster or man-made disaster, was 'God's Wrath' for some perceived societal sin of one sort or another.

That's not really a valid rebuttal to Shieldwife's claim, though. "I found someone saying something mean on the internet" doesn't suggest that such belief's are actually common or even held by a significant portion of any group, christian or otherwise.

To back up shieldwife a bit more, in the 20+ years of church attendance I can remember, in everything from large AG churchs to a band of a dozen or so people gathering in a community center, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that God uses natural disasters to communicate his wrath as a serious claim (as opposed to a tongue in cheek bit of commentary), not even once.

 

[Cherico]

There is no Lutheran church. There are multiple Lutheran denominations who all have their own view of theology. The most prominent of these, the ELCA, have sadly been taken over by wokeness. The Missouri Synod Lutheran Church on the other hand, of which I am a member, maintains orthodox teachings. There are also other smaller groups.

Please don't lump us together.

Honestly you lutherans almost disagree with each other on as many things as we do.

and we coined the term 2 jews 3 opinions.

 

[Bacle]

I'll agree they exist, I've seen them myself, but do you know how large or influential such groups are? I mean, it's really easy to find a few handfuls of wackos in a country as large as the US. Heck there's an estimated 12 million people who believe alien reptilians secretly control the White House. I'd be more comfortable with some numbers beyond "Christians Claim" for that reason.

I'm not sure about solid numbers, I was more trying to point out to ShieldWife that it's not a new phenomenon for some Christians to claim disasters are 'God's Wrath' or 'God's Punishment'.

Like, we even have it happening in the Bible with the Flood (Aegean opening into the Black Sea at the end of the last Ice Age) or Sodom and Gammorah (meteor strike on an area of northern Dead Sea; they've found trinitite samples in the area which could only come from a meteor strike or nuke, and thiers no rads in the area or recorded nuclear detonations).

Edit: @Battlegrinder; see what I said above.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

That's not really a valid rebuttal to Shieldwife's claim, though. "I found someone saying something mean on the internet" doesn't suggest that such belief's are actually common or even held by a significant portion of any group, christian or otherwise.

To back up shieldwife a bit more, in the 20+ years of church attendance I can remember, in everything from large AG churchs to a band of a dozen or so people gathering in a community center, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that God uses natural disasters to communicate his wrath as a serious claim (as opposed to a tongue in cheek bit of commentary), not even once.

Besides, when Our Lord visits his wrath on a people; first he confuses and darkens their will and intellect, then he gives them bad and effeminate leaders, and then if the nation does not repent, he uses the rod of foreign invasion and oppression.

EDIT: Modernity will not be Punished; Modernity is the Punishment.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Let's be real here. The Wuhan plague only happened because of trade policies that cuckolded the US, disenfranchised its working class and created a porous border. Globalism itself is to blame for that and globalism is a glorification of self debasement, self hatred and self harm.

So the edgy 19 year old Groyper calling the pandemic Gods judgment may have a point.

Had we allowed MacArthur to nuke China, or prevented Nixons Keynesian ass from ejecting Taiwan from the UN security Council and recognizing those usurping, dog eating savages on the mainland as that which they aren't.

We probably wouldn't be facing the destruction of our culture and the genocide of the majority ethnic bloc in America.

Call it divine Wrath, call it physics, call it karma, call it what you will.

What is, is. And our tolerance is why we have the coof.

Our over tolerance is why Ebola came to our Shores as well as HIV.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I'm not sure about solid numbers, I was more trying to point out to ShieldWife that it's not a new phenomenon for some Christians to claim disasters are 'God's Wrath' or 'God's Punishment'.

Like, we even have it happening in the Bible with the Flood (Aegean opening into the Black Sea at the end of the last Ice Age) or Sodom and Gammorah (meteor strike on an area of northern Dead Sea; they've found trinitite samples in the area which could only come from a meteor strike or nuke, and thiers no rads in the area or recorded nuclear detonations).

Edit: @Battlegrinder; see what I said above.

I don't think anyone, including shieldwife, has meant to say that no one ever says that natural disasters and other troubles only happen because people deviated from god's will, their point was that such people are a minority group within Christianity.

Nor is "you deserve X because you didn't adhere to ideology Y" a line of logic that's unique to Christians. How often have you seen progressive gloating about some misfortune in a red state and saying it only happened because they voted for republicans?

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I don't think anyone, including shieldwife, has meant to say that no one ever says that natural disasters and other troubles only happen because people deviated from god's will, their point was that such people are a minority group within Christianity.

Nor is "you deserve X because you didn't adhere to ideology Y" a line of logic that's unique to Christians. How often have you seen progressive gloating about some misfortune in a red state and saying it only happened because they voted for republicans?

Even during the height of the religious right, they would always body any pastor crass and blasphemous enough to say something like that.

Least from what I remember.

 

[Bacle]

I don't think anyone, including shieldwife, has meant to say that no one ever says that natural disasters and other troubles only happen because people deviated from god's will, their point was that such people are a minority group within Christianity.

Nor is "you deserve X because you didn't adhere to ideology Y" a line of logic that's unique to Christians. How often have you seen progressive gloating about some misfortune in a red state and saying it only happened because they voted for republicans?

Which is fair, because you are right, the progressives due love to pull that kinda stuff.

 

[ShieldWife]

Absolutely, there are some Christians who believe that natural disasters are God’s punishment, but there are all kinds of people saying wacky things online, but it’s hard to tell if they represent any significant percentage of Christians. I don’t think that they do. I was mainly taking issue with Megadeath’s post about the invisible sky daddy causing natural disasters for gay sex.

For those few who make that claim, it’s pretty silly. Like God can’t just zap individual sinners and has to create a natural disaster that kills a small number of people at random, as though God is worried about getting paradox points if his wrath doesn’t look like a coincidence.

It’s also not a wise argument since there are all sorts of negative consequences that we can directly link to immoral behavior. In fact, I would say that Western civilization is being destroyed in large part due to immorality.