Child Trafficking in the Developing World and the West

[LordsFire]

In which case you cede all claims of anything about morality being "inherent", if you recognize the existence of different bases for it that can disagree on such things as prostitution.

Not remotely. Just because you're building off of another set of principles and assumptions, doesn't mean they are true.

 

[Jouaint]

Pornography is also inherently immoral, with the possible fringe case of keeping private porn of your own spouse.

Of course, we're building morality off of fundamentally different bases.

In which case you cede all claims of anything about morality being "inherent", if you recognize the existence of different bases for it that can disagree on such things as prostitution.

To be fair I think what he is arguing in that statement was that their perspective of what is and is not immoral is different which does not necessarily negate the idea of something being inherently moral/immoral. As an example he could view it in the same way as the geocentric and heliocentric models of the universe where the heliocentrist can recognize the geocentrist hold different ideas of how the universe works, but we know the heliocentric model is closer to reality than the geocentric model.

I'm not saying @Abhorsen or @LordsFire views on prostitution or anything else are like one or the other I'm just trying to give an example to explain what LordsFire is trying to say.

 

[Fleiur]

This is not how economics works, again.

Well, in reality.

"Twelve years on, and we can now see the results of this experiment. Rather than afford better protection for the women, it has simply increased the market. Rather than confine the brothels to a discrete (and avoidable) part of the city, the sex industry has spilt out all over Amsterdam — including on-street. Rather than be given rights in the ‘workplace’, the prostitutes have found the pimps are as brutal as ever. The government-funded union set up to protect them has been shunned by the vast majority of prostitutes, who remain too scared to complain."

Why even Amsterdam doesn’t want legal brothels

Do you remember the rather brilliant comedy sketch featuring Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse in which they played laid-back police officers in Amsterdam, bragging that they no longer have to deal with the crime of murder in the Netherlands since the Dutch legalised it? Don’t laugh too hard. In...

www.spectator.co.uk

"Roughly half of about 3,000 cases of sexual exploitation, predominantly woman, involved underage girls."

At least 1,300 Dutch girls per year trafficked, exploited

At least 1,320 underage Dutch girls between the ages of 12 and 17 fall victim to sexual exploitation in the Netherlands each year, a report on human trafficking published on Wednesday showed.

www.reuters.com

... Planned Parenthood doesn't enable child prostitution. You need a ton more evidence for this baseless claim. I mean, I don't like them, but they aren't pro-child prostitution. If they were, they would have been caught and exposed by abortion activists and defunded ages ago. And I mean more than just one or two examples of a single person, but actual evidence of Planned Parenthood as an organization engaging in this. Again, two things can be evil and not have something to do with one another.

Also, just because planned parenthood engages in giving abortions doesn't make them any more responsible for unknowningly letting a child trafficker use it, any more than Master is for selling its locks to a child trafficker. The problem with abortion has nothing to do with child trafficking, except in lowering the number of kids.

They have been caught by activists. There is an ex-employee flat out saying that they're taught to evade the law when it comes to things like this.

Contrary to what Planned Parenthood told the media at the time, Ms. Trevino said the abortion provider responded to the videos — not by training employees how to spot and report sex trafficking — but by teaching them how not to get caught saying incriminating things to undercover journalists.

I couldn’t believe that we were actually there to train on how to identify if we’re being recorded,” Ms. Trevino says in the six-minute video. “Again, it goes back to do we have something to hide? Why is this an issue for us?”

It was an eye-opening moment for Ms. Trevino, who said she resigned out of disgust.

Planned Parenthood failed to take sex trafficking seriously after infamous sting, ex-employee says

The pro-life group that caught on camera several Planned Parenthood employees attempting to help a man posing as a pimp obtain abortions for underage sex workers is accusing Planned Parenthood of deceiving the public and failing to take the issue of sex trafficking seriously.

m.washingtontimes.com

They were first caught by activists in 2011 by the way.

 

[Terthna]

Not remotely. Just because you're building off of another set of principles and assumptions, doesn't mean they are true.

Yes well, you're not going to have much luck convincing someone that their moral framework is a lie; anymore than they'd have convincing you that yours is. Human history is replete with examples of where that argument goes when nobody is willing to back down, and it usually ends with a lot of people dead.

 

[Bear Ribs]

In what way? Al Capone's entire criminal career was built off of prohibition; this is not in dispute. The fact that he didn't magically disappear when prohibition ended just shows that putting the genie back in the bottle is not a simple endeavor.

Abhorsen was arguing that legalizing prostitution would put the genie back in the bottle and traffickers would magically disappear when that prohibition ended, and claimed Al Capone was proof of it.

 

[Cherico]

Abhorsen was arguing that legalizing prostitution would put the genie back in the bottle and traffickers would magically disappear when that prohibition ended, and claimed Al Capone was proof of it.

I don't think he was quite arguing that, It was more that legalized and regulated prosutition would help control the issue.

The problem with traffickers isn't going to vanish because there is a difference between the regular johns who just want to get laid and sick fucks who want a sex slave. You cant really get rid of the later because psycho paths are unfortantly just a fact of life but you can realocate your limited resources to fighting the later.

I don't think there is a prefect solution where bad shit doesn't happen I think the worlds a series of trade offs where you try to get the best deal you can with what you pay.

 

[Fleiur]

I don't think he was quite arguing that, It was more that legalized and regulated prosutition would help control the issue.

How? It doesn't work in Europe. How would you do it differently and effectively?

 

[Cherico]

How? It doesn't work in Europe. How would you do it differently and effectively?

Define work.

I don't think we are talking about a problem that can be solved, I think we have a problem that can only be managed.

As for my solution I dont think there Is a one sized solution that would work for every one. Different countries and regions have different cultures, resources and geography. And would be forced to deal with the issue of trafficking in different ways. I don't really belive that a perfect solution is possible.

We can do things to manage it, like search hard for people who go missing, warn parents to attend to their kids and hit trafficers with hard charges when we do catch them but those are generizations that help not specifics which would have to be on a community by community basis.

I'm sorry if Im not being helpful here.

 

[Fleiur]

Define work.

Children are still being trafficked for sex.

I don't think we are talking about a problem that can be solved, I think we have a problem that can only be managed.

As for my solution I dont think there Is a one sized solution that would work for every one. Different countries and regions have different cultures, resources and geography. And would be forced to deal with the issue of trafficking in different ways. I don't really belive that a perfect solution is possible.

We can do things to manage it, like search hard for people who go missing, warn parents to attend to their kids and hit trafficers with hard charges when we do catch them but those are generizations that help not specifics which would have to be on a community by community basis.

I'm sorry if Im not being helpful here.

I fully know that there is no perfect solution. We live in a fallen world afterall. Evil things will always exist.
But, legalizing prostitution as what Abhorsen were saying have been refuted. He claimed things that has a different result in real life.

Yeah. I think it's better to pursue traffickers, educate people, and make sure children have good support systems.

 

[Abhorsen]

Abhorsen was arguing that legalizing prostitution would put the genie back in the bottle and traffickers would magically disappear when that prohibition ended, and claimed Al Capone was proof of it.

No, Al Capone was specifically cited as an example to show that prohibition doesn't stop X, and have bad side effects. Just removing the banning doesn't put the genie back in the bottle, but it does allow progress to actually be made. With or without prohibition, there will always be a market for X. If X can be provided in a moral, consensual manner, and isn't a threat to others (not including the user), banning it is worse than letting it be, as it finances organized crime, and if lucrative enough, will result in gangs by itself. Even if we won the war on drugs tomorrow, and all illegal drugs and drug dealers and narco criminals et al were gone, in a few years it would be back because it is that profitable. The only way to make any headway is to legalize this.

This is less true for prostitution, as much of it can't be made legal (child sex is inherently non-consensual), and it's not as profitable as the drug trade, so usually sex trafficking is attached to other gangs instead of being the primary income earner.

Well, in reality.

Given that you have repeatedly shown a tenuous connection with it, I hesitate to look further. But I did, and the post was remarkable short on statistics, but very long on talk. So shockingly, having one place in Europe known for legal brothels obviously means that all the sex slavers will head there, and there was clearly no enforcement of the law trying to rout out illegal sex trade. This doesn't mean there was an increase in sex slavery in Europe, just that the sex slavery all was attracted to Amsterdam. There's also legal slavery in many other places in the world without horrible oppression, such as Australia.

They have been caught by activists. There is an ex-employee flat out saying that they're taught to evade the law when it comes to things like this.

Again, I warned about exactly this kind of proof. All you have shown is employees willing to do bad things. Also, you haven't even established that these employees do these things, just that they would if given the chance.

But, legalizing prostitution as what Abhorsen were saying have been refuted. He claimed things that has a different result in real life.

Fleiur: you haven't actually refuted anything, other than your ability to apply economics well. There are other things that would help, but there will always be a market. If it's illegal, that market will be an uglier one.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Again, I warned about exactly this kind of proof. All you have shown is employees willing to do bad things.

And organisation reacted to it by organising training on how to spot if you are being covertly recorded. Which means they approve of what this workers did and seek to furhter such activities.

 

[Fleiur]

Fleiur: you haven't actually refuted anything,

Sure. I did.

You on the other hand, clearly haven't established how there is less sex trafficking in the Netherlands than before. You also haven't addressed how pimps have adapted. Enough so that the Dutch government is scrambling to find a solution.

You also seem to like to throw the testimony of eyewitnesses under the rug regarding Planned Parenthood. Here is a statistic for you. Per a former senior State Department Official:

"Survivors [of human trafficking] also had significant contact with clinical treatment facilities, most commonly Planned Parenthood clinics, which more than a quarter of survivors (29.6%) visited. . . . Since pimps and traffickers generally exercise nearly complete control of their victims, these points of contact with healthcare represent rare opportunities for victim identification and intervention"

Planned Parenthood’s Continued Failure to Report Evidence of Child-Sex Trafficking | National Review

Planned Parenthood still fails to identify and report suspected sex-trafficking victims who walk through its doors.

www.nationalreview.com

This doesn't mean there was an increase in sex slavery in Europe, just that the sex slavery all was attracted to Amsterdam. There's also legal slavery in many other places in the world without horrible oppression, such as Australia.

Well, with it legal in the Netherlands, it becomes a legal front for human trafficking. It doesn't help that the Netherlands is becoming a drug haven despite its soft approach towards them:

Why The Netherlands Is Becoming A Narco State

There is concern over the Netherlands becoming a narco state as the drug market threatens and undermines the legitimate economy and society.

www.addictioncenter.com

 

[LordsFire]

Yes well, you're not going to have much luck convincing someone that their moral framework is a lie; anymore than they'd have convincing you that yours is. Human history is replete with examples of where that argument goes when nobody is willing to back down, and it usually ends with a lot of people dead.

Yes, when people have sufficiently incompatible moral systems, war is the result. This is one of the major reasons Islam is never at peace.

One of the key parts that determines how this plays out, is 'at what point are you willing to kill because someone has done something you believe to be immoral?'

If a woman voluntarily goes into prostitution, forget killing, I won't do anything more than try to persuade her not to. It's her body and her heart she's messing up, that's her decision to make. And by 'woman' here that does mean 'adult.' Just because she has the right to decide to mess herself up, doesn't mean it's a moral decision for her to do so. Much like someone choosing to become an alcoholic.

If someone tries to use force to push someone into prostitution? I'd be willing to use force to stop that, if I'm in an appropriate place to do so. If they keep escalating levels of force, I'd escalate in turn, and that might end up with one or both of us dead. It's the use of force they are already undertaking that starts this cycle though.

The more people try to argue that there's nothing wrong with prostitution, the more people will suffer under it. Both those who went into it voluntarily, and those who have been forced into it. Unfortunately, for most people who buy into libertine ethics, it's pointless to argue directly about it, because there are underlying philosophical principles in play, ones which make them resistant to any kind of logic or facts regarding the issue.

 

[Rocinante]

A few hours before the DNC started, photos of bill Clinton being massaged by a one of Epstein's sex slaves emerges.

Why are people so quiet about this?

 

[Terthna]

Yes, when people have sufficiently incompatible moral systems, war is the result. This is one of the major reasons Islam is never at peace.

One of the key parts that determines how this plays out, is 'at what point are you willing to kill because someone has done something you believe to be immoral?'

If a woman voluntarily goes into prostitution, forget killing, I won't do anything more than try to persuade her not to. It's her body and her heart she's messing up, that's her decision to make. And by 'woman' here that does mean 'adult.' Just because she has the right to decide to mess herself up, doesn't mean it's a moral decision for her to do so. Much like someone choosing to become an alcoholic.

If someone tries to use force to push someone into prostitution? I'd be willing to use force to stop that, if I'm in an appropriate place to do so. If they keep escalating levels of force, I'd escalate in turn, and that might end up with one or both of us dead. It's the use of force they are already undertaking that starts this cycle though.

The more people try to argue that there's nothing wrong with prostitution, the more people will suffer under it. Both those who went into it voluntarily, and those who have been forced into it. Unfortunately, for most people who buy into libertine ethics, it's pointless to argue directly about it, because there are underlying philosophical principles in play, ones which make them resistant to any kind of logic or facts regarding the issue.

That's fair; though I'd like to think it would be difficult to find someone who would argue in favor of forcing someone into becoming a prostitute, or anything for that matter. The most basic right we have is the right to choose for ourselves how to live our lives.

 

[Bear Ribs]

That's fair; though I'd like to think it would be difficult to find someone who would argue in favor of forcing someone into becoming a prostitute, or anything for that matter. The most basic right we have is the right to choose for ourselves how to live our lives.

You'd think, yet slavery has happened throughout all human history, sexual and otherwise. Some people choose to live their lives in domination over other people.

Also never underestimate the ability of a person to rationalize that their specific base desires are truly for the good of all humanity.

 

[Lanmandragon]

You'd think, yet slavery has happened throughout all human history, sexual and otherwise. Some people choose to live their lives in domination over other people.

Also never underestimate the ability of a person to rationalize that their specific base desires are truly for the good of all humanity.

Yep some people enjoy being evil immensely it's unfortunate but true. Not everyone can be fixed and not everyone can be reasoned with. Like it or not some people just need killing it's really that simple.

 

[almostinsane]

This was made in the Fifth French Republic and will be premiering on Netflix:


Twerking: The Movie. In fairness, they're demonizing black Muslims for not being thrilled about their 11 year old daughter twerking on stage in front of total strangers.

 

[Fleiur]

Yep some people enjoy being evil immensely it's unfortunate but true. Not everyone can be fixed and not everyone can be reasoned with. Like it or not some people just need killing it's really that simple.

Death penalty to these people.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Death penalty to these people.

Call it ITG or whatever but if they do so to mine. Then well I've gotta rope and a tree I really like.