My problem with defining "worship" like that comes from something I mentioned earlier, the incident in Revelation 19:10 when John starts to fall down and worship an angel - who was himself a servant of God - but the angel admonishes him that he must not do that, and tells him instead to worship God.
I'll begin my response here. This
may be a quirk of translation but that's not what I get from that passage (I use the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition). The text from that version reads:
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition - Revelation 19:10 said:
And I fell down before his feet, to adore him. And he saith to me: See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant,
Adoration is a very specific action and intrinsic to the Catholic sense of worship. We absolutely
should not adore God's creatures in the manner we are called to adore God. If John had knelt and responded to the angel that he would do as God had commanded him or something to that effect (that is to say, without granting the angel any more special consideration than respect for the angel's station as a messenger of God) I do not believe the angel would have rebuked him. John's error was in misappropriating the love due to God to the angel whom he perceived as so magnificent in the moment. It's also of note that the angel didn't, for example, smite him right then and there (or some other punishment) for idolatry. He was only rebuked but not punished so he clearly didn't break the Law in some way.
If I'm understanding you correctly, your direct answer to my question is that what makes something worship is that it is "an offering of love and devotion to God". That makes it sound like "worship" is defined by the object as much as it is defined by the action. That is to say, giving worship by definition cannot be done to anything except God, because worship is by definition something done to God. You could have all the same actions that would be involved in worship, but if it was not directed towards God but instead a servant of God, it would be considered "veneration", not "worship".
You are
partially correct. Let's say for example you perform these specific actions: kneeling by the bedside, folding your hands, bowing your head, and speaking your prayers.
What will differentiate a prayer such as a Hail Mary (in veneration of Mary [duh]) from an Our Father (to God) is going to be what you are doing interiorly. The Hail Mary (and the Rosary) is
supposed to be said while meditating on Jesus. You are, interiorly, directing your love and devotion to her son and love him for that. The words of the Hail Mary are to aid you in doing so.
Hail Mary said:
Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
This is an acknowledgement of her status, that of a woman uniquely blessed by the Lord for his purpose. It's object is, chiefly, the adoration of Jesus with respect to the Incarnation.
Hail Mary said:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
is the only call to action in the prayer and it's asking her to pray for us. I would hardly consider that
worship of Mary. The interior reflection and offering of adoration to Jesus and the reserved, respectful exterior actions are worship of God
while still directed toward Mary and solely for the purpose of asking for her to intercede on our behalf.
Now, where this can go all wrong is when the love for God is directed at Mary, for Mary, and divorced from the understanding that all good and right things are His. At that point, you've definitely taken a wrong turn and are
worshiping Mary.
I say you are partially correct because, I think, your issue is that it sounds like circular logic (am I understanding your objection correctly?). It is not circular reasoning because of the very real possibility you perform the prayer incorrectly and you stray into idolatry. Rather, it's more like two distinct aspects of prayer that feed into each other. (See my last section on form and matter). You must actively be performing those exterior and interior actions in the correct manner.
I understand, and agree, that Mary and all the saints are alive in a spiritual sense. However, it is still true that they are deceased in the sense that their bodies have died and their spirits have passed from this world, and we can no longer converse with them to communicate our needs in prayer. Scripture gives no indication that such communication is possible with deceased Christians, that deceased Christians can respond to prayers and intercede for Christians in this world.
With respect to intercession, we get to murkier territory that I am less comfortable really getting into the weeds of.
However, as I understand it, the Catholic Church has a rigorous process for determining sainthood that neatly explains such a thing. That is, that to determine sainthood there must be
actual, verifiable, and attributable miracles and signs to indicate such. If for example, in determining that St. Jude was a) indeed saintly and b) in heaven and c) listening to us and d) able to perform extraordinary acts in the service of God there was a miracle indicating Jude's unique and active influence then I think we can believe that the saints in Heaven can act on earth. Additionally, it is a fact that spiritual beings can act on Earth. Even now, God will send his angels to intervene in people's lives. So, the chain of logic is this:
- Spiritual beings can act on Earth, even without fleshly bodies.
- The saints are determined to be saints by their active influence in miracles attributed to their unique circumstances or qualities.
- If the saints can intervene on Earth, then so to can Mary.
- Additionally, there are likely many people in history who died in a state of grace and who have not specifically been tested by the Church to determine their sainthood.
- Therefore, there are many members of the Church who are unknown and also able to intervene in the lives of the living members of the Church.
- Additionally, we know that those in Purgatory are those member of the Church who are guaranteed salvation.
- We do not know when such souls will be released from Purgatory.
- Therefore, given the nature of a soul in Purgatory (guaranteed salvation but at an uncertain time) we can ask for them to pray for us as well.
It makes no reference to praying to deceased saints and martyrs, and as I pointed out, it doesn't categorize asking elders here on Earth for prayer as an act of prayer in itself.
I would counter that prayer has both a
form and a
matter. In Catholicism, these terms are usually used in
reference to Sacraments but I think they apply equally here. The matter in this case being asking for intercession by a saint, or Mary, or a family member in purgatory, or what have you. The form being the act of prayer (folded hands, bowed head, etc). I believe it's relevant because the
matter is not different to Catholics when you ask your friend to pray for you because you're about to get surgery or when asking Mary. The
form, however, is different. On Earth, you just need to text your friend, or ask in person, or what ever you do
physically. However, that option isn't open for the saints or Mary or whoever you're asking to pray for you. That's just the reality of it. The form is going to be different- the matter is not. Taken together, for Catholics, it will amount to the same thing and doesn't violate the 1st commandment.
