Wow. I knew about the totem mechs, but the canonical fursuits are...wow.
Battletech BattleTech discussion thread: May the light of Hanse Davion guide us
- Thread starter PsihoKekec
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Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Yeah, most people don't realize but the Exodus happened because the House Lords learned what a raging furry Nicholas Kerensky was and they dissolved the Star League just to make sure his influence wouldn't spread. Aleksandr fled the Inner Sphere to hide the shame of it but then he died and Nicholas was free to remake the Clans in his image.
Most of the rest of the timeline is a result of furries. The Eridani Light Horse took only half an hour to decide they'd remain in the Inner Sphere after Nicholas Kerensky told them he was going to have them wear actual horse costumes. ComStar especially hates furries. Operation Holy Shroud wasn't actually aimed at destroying the tech base, it's just that several key scientists in the Inner Sphere were closet furries and ComStar needed to eliminate them. The Battle of Tukkayid was ComStar striking back at the incoming furry infestation, and the Jihad happened when they realized the Canopians were using cyberware to create pseudo-furries via surgery and augmentation, so they made an utmost effort to have the minds of the Inner Sphere associate cyber with genocidal Tau Zombies in order to ensure their technology wouldn't be used to make furries in the future.
What the books describe is closer to being this:
Than this:
Nobody goes around calling Jaffa "furries" due to their ceremonial armor. Further, the headpeices that look like the animal totems of the Clans are specifically for ceremonies, and from all the descriptions they are much like Native American ceremonial masks:
Or Mongolian:
I get it, it's fun to shit on the Clans, but one should do so for actual reasons rather than exaggerating something that is clearly founded on historical societies rather than a sexual subculture that was barely known or formed when the Clans were introduced.
Than this:
Nobody goes around calling Jaffa "furries" due to their ceremonial armor. Further, the headpeices that look like the animal totems of the Clans are specifically for ceremonies, and from all the descriptions they are much like Native American ceremonial masks:
Or Mongolian:
I get it, it's fun to shit on the Clans, but one should do so for actual reasons rather than exaggerating something that is clearly founded on historical societies rather than a sexual subculture that was barely known or formed when the Clans were introduced.
Skitzyfrenic
Well-known member
Well, then it's not a counterpoint. It isn't countering anything. A counterpoint, with no further context, counters, it doesn't contrast.
Saying 'In contrast' or 'in my experience' would have been an immensely better choice to convey what you say you meant.
Edit: Counterpoint is inherently oppositional. If you had just dropped that from your post, it would have been shrug worthy and we all could have moved on.
Double Edit: Fucking definitionally apparently I'm more right than you but still wrong. I guess we just have a different core of communication.
W/e, I'm so fucking done with today.
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Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Lolwut? The furry fandom got its start in the 70s, and in the early 90s when the Clans were first published the furry fandom was at its highest popularity. They'd taken over a range of message boards and were huge on the internet. Sites like Something Awful didn't come online until 1999 and start revealing the more horrid aspects of the community so right when the clans were released, furry fandoms had the maximum draw and public goodwill.What the books describe is closer to being this:
Than this:
Nobody goes around calling Jaffa "furries" due to their ceremonial armor. Further, the headpeices that look like the animal totems of the Clans are specifically for ceremonies, and from all the descriptions they are much like Native American ceremonial masks:
Or Mongolian:
View attachment 1719
I get it, it's fun to shit on the Clans, but one should do so for actual reasons rather than exaggerating something that is clearly founded on historical societies rather than a sexual subculture that was barely known or formed when the Clans were introduced.
And again, there's a lot more to the clan furrydom than just the fursuits. It's not just the fursuits, it's not just that the most popular clan TV show looks like this:
The fact that the clans identify with their fursonas so much that they structure their lives and societies to act like those animals is the big one, like Ghost Bears respecting marriage more than other clans because the Ghost Bear (animal) mates for life, or Clan Burrock doing more shady, underground dealings than the other clans because the Burrock (animal) employs poison and digs through the earth to ambush enemies.
If it was just the ceremonial animal costumes or just the anthropomorphic animal TV show, we could shrug and call it a coincidence. Harder to throw off the "We try to emulate an animal in daily life."
A military unit that all get matching Piranha tattoos aren't furry, a military unit that wear Piranha costumes is questionable, a military unit that decides they want to call their unit a "school" and emulate the Piranha's social behavior in their daily life while wearing Piranha costumes on special occasions? That's pretty sus. Once you take all of the furry elements Clanners have into account simultaneously? Then it becomes a pattern of behavior, a recognizable one.
Most of the Clan's DON'T structure their Clan culture and society on their totems. Cloud Cobra's aren't some sort of spiritual beast that lead that clan to be literally Clan Warrior Monk where the dominate political factions of the Clan are literally religious denominations. No that was because the founder of the Clan was a CHAPLIN who valued religious belief. This is likewise the case for EVERY OTHER CLAN, the Clan founder's beliefs and ideals are what influenced the Clan's focus much more than their totem beast did, and, despite your claim otherwise, the Ghost Bears ARE THE SAME.
From Field Manual Warden Clans, pg 76-77:
As can be seen by these excerpts (and it is even more explicit when you read the entire founding section for the Ghost Bears), the desire to focus on family existed for the Ghost Bear founders BEFORE it was known their totem beast was pack oriented: to the point where they would have rather died than give up their family. That Ghost Bears are packs animals became a post hoc justification for them to remain together and focus on family as core to their identity and to give Nicolas cover for allowing them their own way to do things.
So aside from their formal uniforms and a child's TV show, you really have nothing to say the Clans base their culture on their totems. You keep citing the Ghost Bears as one, but the Warden Field Manual clearly contradicts your claim. Other Clans likewise show strong divergence between their totem and Clan Culture. Cloud Cobras and their religiosity. Goliath Scorpions and their culture of Adventure Archeologists and Historians. Coyote and their focus on science and research and development (unless you're going to claim some broad stroke "oh Coyotes are typically seen as 'clever' animals and thus they're totally basing their culture off the that old mythological stereotype). Snow Raven and their focus on Naval assets. Sea Fox/Diamond Shark culture and its high level of inter-caste cooperation and mercantile focus again, don't trace back to their totem, but to critical founding members of the Clan. This pattern is repeated again and again in the Field Manual Warden and Field Manual Crusader Clans, that the founder's personal interests and focus had more to do with the Clan's resulting culture than the totem animal, and if there WAS a tie to the totem animal, like with the Ghost Bears, it was a post hoc rationalization to sell their ideas to Nicholas.
From Field Manual Warden Clans, pg 76-77:
Clan Ghost Bear's character stems from it's founders, Sandra Tseng and Hans Ole Jorgensson. Both fought with Aleksander Kerenskjy's troops in the battle to retake Terra; they met at a celebration commemorating the victory and memorializing the dead. Married a short time later, they continued to serve in the SLDF...
...After the fleet's arrival at the Pentagon worlds, Tseng and Jorgensson were among the many soldiers decommissioned. Intelligent and resourceful, they quickly adapted to civilians life, becoming community leaders involved in industry and commerce on their new home of Babylon. Soon after planetfall, they had a son. The family lived happily for ten years, the boy becoming the proud center of their lives...
...Like many others on Babylon, Tseng and Jorgensson did not believe the violence would last long, and thought it unlikely to spread to other Pentagon worlds. They were proved tragically wreong when a stray bullet killed their son during a riot between former citizens of the Lyran Commonwealth and Draconis Combine...
...It came as a shock, therefore, when our founders learned their place in this new society: they were to be assigned to different Clans. Nicholas reasoned that spreading his assets evenly among the Clans would help ensure their viability, and as Tseng and Jorgensson were among this most trusted advisors, it would be foolish to concentrate them in a single Clan.
Just as they had when considering the original Exodus, Tseng and Jorgensson carefully weighted the consequences and then regretfully chose to reject Nicholas' decision to divide them. Knowing they could not disobey their commander under martial law, Tseng and Jorgensson in effect agreed that they would rather die together than live apart. They quietly packed survival kits and disappeared into Strana Mechty's Antarctic wilderness.
...
On the third day out founders bore witness to the true nature of their caretaker. In their weakened state they had failed to realize that they were being cared for by an entire family of ghost bears. The creature's wide range of sizes and ages meant that the Ghost Bear was not a solitary predator, as they had previously thought, but rather formed lifelong bonds. This revelation inspired out founders to return to Nicholas with this evidence of the importance of family, and to fight for their right to serve the Clans as a team.
As can be seen by these excerpts (and it is even more explicit when you read the entire founding section for the Ghost Bears), the desire to focus on family existed for the Ghost Bear founders BEFORE it was known their totem beast was pack oriented: to the point where they would have rather died than give up their family. That Ghost Bears are packs animals became a post hoc justification for them to remain together and focus on family as core to their identity and to give Nicolas cover for allowing them their own way to do things.
So aside from their formal uniforms and a child's TV show, you really have nothing to say the Clans base their culture on their totems. You keep citing the Ghost Bears as one, but the Warden Field Manual clearly contradicts your claim. Other Clans likewise show strong divergence between their totem and Clan Culture. Cloud Cobras and their religiosity. Goliath Scorpions and their culture of Adventure Archeologists and Historians. Coyote and their focus on science and research and development (unless you're going to claim some broad stroke "oh Coyotes are typically seen as 'clever' animals and thus they're totally basing their culture off the that old mythological stereotype). Snow Raven and their focus on Naval assets. Sea Fox/Diamond Shark culture and its high level of inter-caste cooperation and mercantile focus again, don't trace back to their totem, but to critical founding members of the Clan. This pattern is repeated again and again in the Field Manual Warden and Field Manual Crusader Clans, that the founder's personal interests and focus had more to do with the Clan's resulting culture than the totem animal, and if there WAS a tie to the totem animal, like with the Ghost Bears, it was a post hoc rationalization to sell their ideas to Nicholas.
The first uniform has a big ol Bird helmet and a feathered cape.
The second uniform has scales on its bodysuit (House Tully from Game of Thrones are "Furries" now I guess) and another facemask.
It's literally about as "Furry" as the Jaffa Royal Guard armor based on what you stated here. Unless we're watering down the term furry to something meaningless.
So the Jaffa are furries. Quarter of the Space Marine chapters. Caesers Legion from Fallout. The entire Mayan and Aztec Empire. The special military units of Middenland in Warhammer Fantasy. Roman Velites. A majority of the generic barbarian and tribal factions in fiction etc.
Even if we accept this fanon handwaving that the canonical framing of Clan culture and strategies in terms of totem animal behavior is merely ex post facto symbolism attached to supposedly pre-existing cultural norms, the fact that it is always taught and talked about within that framing canonically demonstrates just how strongly pervasive the totem animals are to the Clans.
In addition, this is strongly refuted by the fact that the Clans couldn't have had pre-existing cultural norms because they were not a distinct culture pre-Exodus, merely SLDF units from throughout the far-flung Star League.
In addition, this is strongly refuted by the fact that the Clans couldn't have had pre-existing cultural norms because they were not a distinct culture pre-Exodus, merely SLDF units from throughout the far-flung Star League.
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Again, aside from the explicitly shown to be ex post facto aspect of the Ghost Bear's focus on the family, what Clans take so much from their totems for their culture and tactics? Yes the warriors will talk about the fierceness and strength or swiftness of their totem beast as being aspects that their warriors should emulate, but... that's pretty normal for people using totem animals (again, see Native American and other cultures that often use totems). But the actual Clan cultures, when you actually READ the field manuals and novels, seems quite distinct from the totems.
Do Goliath Scorpions go around making collections of interesting things and people? Do they go steal random shiny objects to keep in a horde? No. Again, is the Cloud Cobra somehow an enlightened beast bringing spiritual knowledge to people? No. Do Hell's Horses have wheels and tracks instead of feet? No. Go look at the actual cultures of each Clan and then look at the totems. Most Clan cultures have little to no relation to the totem, but DO have clear links back to those who founded the Clans in the first place, with the Clan's culture being heavily influenced by the specific critical founders of those Clans.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
Let us break for a moment from the riveting discussion whether Murder Furries are actual furries (they are) and enjoy the fact that everything is better with assault mechs, even littering laws enforcement.
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How about we put it this way: even if the role of totem animals in Clan culture is totally superficial, its pervasiveness combined with the fursuit uniforms makes them dramatically more furry than guys who wear a fursuit maybe once or twice a year at a con. Even at the most favorable possible interpretation, the Clans are disturbingly heavy on lifestyle furry.
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Bear Ribs
Well-known member
And yet cobras are strongly associated with spritualism and worship, all over the world. Ancient Egyptian worship involved cobras, especially worship of Ra, Wadjet, Renenutet, Nehebkau, and Meretseger. Cobras are associated with Vishnu and Shiva in Hinduism, and a human-faced cobra is commonly seen in the Buddhist religion. Many African cults also worship cobras. You'd be hard-pressed to find an animal more associated with religion than cobras. As a result, in the furry community snakes are commonly associated with priests and priestesses and you can find tons of artwork of them. Furries don't just use an animal's real behavior, most of them draw on the animal's mythology as well so this meshes. If anything, this emphasizes how much furry culture is intertwined with the clans.
Ha ha!
Yeah, this dude wears a fursuit, watches furry-themed media, and so forth but he was into fart and odor play before he started dressing up as a skunk so clearly he's not a furry.
No duh furries tend to choose totem animals that fit what they already think they're like. This merely strengthens the furry tie in, that rather than just choosing an animal because it was cool, they chose an animal to emulate, to become. The fact that a person might have had some values before the formation of the clan hardly means the furry influence didn't exist. What we're really establishing is that your standards for what constitutes a "furry" is so absurdly narrow you won't accept anything but actual sex in a fursuit, which isn't going to show up in a generally SFW game like Battletech.
Diamond Shark I'll grant you, they have relatively little to do with their spirit animal. That's probably why out of all the clans they were the ones willing to change totems, they didn't really have the strong furry attachment to it the other clans did. Coyote? Heck yes furries draw on the mythology of their totem animals.
Goliath Scorpion? Yeah, they embody their animal.
Named for the large, venomous arachnid native to the world of Babylon, Clan Goliath Scorpion embodied the swift and deadly strikes that earned our namesake such a fearsome reputation... -Field Manual, Warden Clans 101
Our nest is built with history's answers, the shards of the shattered Star League warm in our grasp. Claws sharpened by struggle, stinger poised to strike, we walk the darkness with conviction. Field Manual, Warden Clans 101
Clan Goliath Scorpion Warriors prefer to dual-wield like a scorpion, and they like pincer attacks according to the same book a couple pages later. The fact that they also have a fetish for Star League history doesn't mean they don't emulate scorpions anymore than a person isn't a furry because they also have a diaper fetish.
Then, of course, you have Fire Mandrill who literally organize everything to emulate their totem animal, even creating the ever-warring Kindraa to emulate the Mandrill's interpack warfare, Widowmaker being the clan that turned on their own, Snow Raven says they became the Naval clan to emulate the Snow Raven's ability to consume the leftovers of other predators (they took the WarShips the other clans didn't want), Star Adders emulating the patience of the Star Adder in how it slowly moves into position before attacking, and Ice Hellions use surprise and swift attack to emulate the tactics of the animal itself which uses speed and surprise attacks to take down larger prey.
If you see the Jaffa also referring to themselves as the animal helmet, watching anthro-animal TV by choice, and using tactics and equipment to emulate an animal's behavior and lifestyle, then you'll have a point. As is, the fursuits by themselves are a pointer but not anything concrete, it's when you collect all the datapoints together that the pattern becomes more clear.
Though, given how much Furry Stargate art there is (I quit after ten pages of it on FurAffinity) I'd say yeah, the furry community thinks so too and accepts the Jaffa and Goauld as their own.
If you play Call of Duty and Battlefield a hundred hours a week, you are dramatically more of a military veteran than the pussies who show up one weekend a month, two weeks a year for the National Guard.
Lifestyle furry? All of the walls of text presented so far have presented face masks and feathery capes and that the lifestyle and culture is using animal metaphors like "pincer move." If you describe a military tactic as a "pincer move" instead of a double envelopment, strong evidence that you embrace the furry lifestyle apparently.
Apparently Zulus are furries who wore hide armor and used hide shields and their tactic was "Beast Horns" and they raised cattle as their main economic activity. And lets not get started on their affinity with leopards. After all, they did this all the time, they must've embraced the "furry" lifestyle far more than some Western degenerate sexual deviant who only dons a fursuit twice a year.
I'm just amused that all of the geezers who watched Duck Tales, Beast Wars and Tale Spin and whatnot are apparently lifestyle furries since they engage in more furry lifestyle behavior then the closeted perv who dons a fursuit only once or twice a year for a con. Goodness forbid if your a MilSF fan and like the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy factions, Caesars Legion or Stagate Jaffa. 
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
False comparison, the National Guard do actual Military things while Call of Duty is a game. We can fairly say that somebody who engages in military duties daily is more of a military veteran than the National Guardsman, and the person who plays Call of Duty every day is more of a gamer than the person who does so once a year.
The fact that you have to play these kinds of pedantic wordgames instead of using truthful arguments speaks worlds to how unsupported your position is.
Now that's some quality dishonest argumentation. You claim it's a wall of text, apparently too much information, yet leave about 80% of it out so apparently there wasn't enough given you had to ignore everything that didn't suit your claims.
As for pincer movement, that was me paraphrasing a lengthier segment about how they like to perform strikes from multiple directions emulating the scorpion's claws and tail. I guess I need more walls of text since trying to condense stuff down just confuses you like that.
Did the Zulus call themselves cows and attempt to imitate the cow in their tactics and daily life?
Do those people call themselves by animal names, wear fursuits, and try to emulate animal traits in their daily lives too?I'm just amused that all of the geezers who watched Duck Tales, Beast Wars and Tale Spin and whatnot are apparently lifestyle furries since they engage in more furry lifestyle behavior then the closeted perv who dons a fursuit only once or twice a year for a con. Goodness forbid if your a MilSF fan and like the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy factions, Caesars Legion or Stagate Jaffa.
You need a little more straw for your man, all you've got is a stick and a hat here.
Your friend Shadowarxxy didn't mention Clanners donning fursuits to attend Conventions and engaging in whatever it is furries do at those things so the comparison is apt. The examples you've cited so far of the Clanner "lifestyle" is some of them wear headmasks which are common throughout history and one of the clans wears a scaled bodysuit which is a less common thing in history and fiction but not exactly uncommon. And using animal metaphors for common military maneuvers and tactics. Like is House Tully a bunch of furries because they took up the "totem" of fish, wear scalemail, nickname themselves after fish and so forth? I don't think so. Maybe you do but then I'll say your definition of furries is far more broad than mine.
I haven't seen anything about their lifestyle that resembles the "furry" culture that I've seen presented in The Sietch or whatever with the actual fursuits and conventions and weird sexual kinks and stuff.
No I understand the animal metaphor of scorpions and pincer moves lol. I just don't see it as indicative of a lifestyle choice similar to a lifelong sexual desire to dryhump people in a fursuit at a convention. I'm assuming there's more to the furry subculture beyond that but I haven't looked into it. It's apparent you and Shadow have far more knowledge since you spend more time looking at furry Stargate porn.
I just told you the Zulus imitating the Cow in their tactics, dressed in their hides, worshipped them, and that cows were a huge part of their lives since they are a pastoral people. And yes, they did name their Impis after animals. Lots of tribes wore hides, worshipped animals, and took names after animals. I wouldn't call any of them furries. Furries is a pretty particular degenerate modern subculture in my opinion like emos and (contemporary) Goths where the term was misapplied so broadly it became a useless identifier. You can think of the Clans as furries, it's just the reasoning you've offered so far seems pretty sketchy at best from what limited knowledge I have of that sort of subculture. It sounds like the Clans adopted some semblance of warrior tribal societies which were often totemic/animal based. They aren't going around humping and sniffing each other in actual fursuits AFAIK and whatever other animal shit they do.
Amused Bystander
Hear me Umu!!!
*Delurks* Correct me if im wrong but last i recall the definition of a furry was someone who had a liking to humanized female animal people like catgirls and doggirls and more. I have yet to see a Clanner in setting or in a fanfic have such a liking. Therefore to me,they arent furries. Thats my 2 cents on this topic. * Lurks back*