Culture Anti-Semitism and Collective vs. Individual Guilt

[LordsFire]

Is it bad when you do it and apply it too all Arabs or Muslims when one Muslim in the UK commits a crime?

There's a stark difference between being Islamic and being Arab.

One is a religion, the other is an ethnicity.

The one is a comprehensive worldview, the other is what you happened to be born as.

To be fair, with Islam, there's some overlap, because Sharia would have you killed for leaving Islam, and if you're born to a muslim family, that makes you count as a muslim in there eyes.

Either way, you don't blame an Arab for what an Arab from and living in another nation on the far side of the world has done. Similarly with a Muslim, though it can be fair grounds for criticizing their ideology and trying to convince them to leave Islam, especially if the live in the West, where they have much better odds of not being killed for it.

 

[King Arts]

There's a stark difference between being Islamic and being Arab.

One is a religion, the other is an ethnicity.

The one is a comprehensive worldview, the other is what you happened to be born as.

To be fair, with Islam, there's some overlap, because Sharia would have you killed for leaving Islam, and if you're born to a muslim family, that makes you count as a muslim in there eyes.

Either way, you don't blame an Arab for what an Arab from and living in another nation on the far side of the world has done. Similarly with a Muslim, though it can be fair grounds for criticizing their ideology and trying to convince them to leave Islam, especially if the live in the West, where they have much better odds of not being killed for it.

You agree there is overlap. I mean same with Judaism it's both a religion, as it the rabbis really do believe in the Old Testament, Torah to them and God and Moses and all the prophets. But it's also a people/ethnicity where those who are atheist are considered Jews Isaac Asimov for instance thought that the old testament and the stories there the world flood, God, 10 plagues and leaving Egypt was Jewish mythology just like the Trojan war, and Zeus was Greek mythology.

 

[Zachowon]

There is a diffrence between Ethnicity and religion.
There are Christian Arabs.
And Christian jews.

 

[Cherico]

There is a diffrence between Ethnicity and religion.
There are Christian Arabs.
And Christian jews.

We jews are a relgion.....you might want to rewrite that.

 

[Scottty]

We jews are a relgion.....you might want to rewrite that.

Pick one:
Hebrew Christians
Messianic Jews

Seriously, being born to the tribe of Judah does not give the Talmudist rabbis a claim to your soul. There are people who are Jewish by descent as much as some other people are English or Welsh by descent - but who also believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour just as much.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

We jews are a relgion.....you might want to rewrite that.

There is a diffrence between Ethnicity and religion.
There are Christian Arabs.
And Christian jews.

If jews aren't a race, how come you need to prove genetic jewishness to be an Israeli citizen?...
There's jews (The race) and jews (the religion).
A lot of jews are jewish, but a lot of jews aren't jewish. As odd as that sounds.

 

[Scottty]

*looks at map*

Yeah, reservations can be pretty rough. Doesn't help that there's been a widespread adoption of ghetto culture.

Yes, what that map implies is that the most violent demographics are not new immigrant population, but non-whites who have been there for many centuries.

I'll take a flying guess that in the case of the Red Indians, there would be a clear difference between the ones who are fully assimilated to Anglo culture, those who maintain their own traditional culture... and to the ones who have done neither, but just become an underclass living off government hand-outs.

 

[Cherico]

If jews aren't a race, how come you need to prove genetic jewishness to be an Israeli citizen?...
There's jews (The race) and jews (the religion).
A lot of jews are jewish, but a lot of jews aren't jewish. As odd as that sounds.

Were pretty infamous on not agreeing on a lot of stuff but I'm pretty hard on you have to at least try to practice the religion to be jewish and I tend to be on the more welcoming side to converts.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Were pretty infamous on not agreeing on a lot of stuff but I'm pretty hard on you have to at least try to practice the religion to be jewish and I tend to be on the more welcoming side to converts.

That's a lil no true scottsman though?

 

[Zachowon]

We jews are a relgion.....you might want to rewrite that.

Hebrew=jew ethnicity technically

Pick one:
Hebrew Christians
Messianic Jews

Seriously, being born to the tribe of Judah does not give the Talmudist rabbis a claim to your soul. There are people who are Jewish by descent as much as some other people are English or Welsh by descent - but who also believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour just as much.

Basically what Scotty said.

If jews aren't a race, how come you need to prove genetic jewishness to be an Israeli citizen?...
There's jews (The race) and jews (the religion).
A lot of jews are jewish, but a lot of jews aren't jewish. As odd as that sounds.

It'd like you can be a white Muslim or a white Sikh.
Race has nothing to do with religion.
I think Israel wants thise who sre descendents not converts to be welcome

 

[Cherico]

That's a lil no true scottsman though?

Like I said we argue about this shit all of the time so its complicated.

I put more value on the belife side of things then the ethnic side of things and this is not in any way universal.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

It'd like you can be a white Muslim or a white Sikh.
Race has nothing to do with religion.
I think Israel wants thise who sre descendents not converts to be welcome

Sikh and Muslim aren't races though, "jew" is.
Otherwise, what? Holocaust wasn't a genocide at all? What 'race' were the Nazis trying to get rid of again?

 

[Scottty]

Sikh and Muslim aren't races though, "jew" is.
Otherwise, what? Holocaust wasn't a genocide at all? What 'race' were the Nazis trying to get rid of again?

Still a huge pile of dead people either way. I hope we can all agree that "being born to a certain race" should not be a death-penalty offense, and if it was one that those people were actually innocent of?? No, that hardly makes it any less bad.
Just saying.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Still a huge pile of dead people either way. I hope we can all agree that "being born to a certain race" should not be a death-penalty offense, and if it was one that those people were actually innocent of?? No, that hardly makes it any less bad.
Just saying.

Right, but 'they killed a bunch of various ethnicities with no rhyme or reason just because they shared a belief' somehow seems less sinister than 'they went out of their way to track down bloodlines to catch every single last person of a specific ethnicity they hated'.
I'm just basing my opinion off of israel, who tends to get upset if you refer to them as 'Other White people' instead of their own group.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bbc-debate-on-whether-jews-are-an-ethnic-minority-group-sparks-outrage/

Seems to be an eternal debate even within the jewish sphere, but given how israel operates it obviously has a genetic element to it.

 

[Scottty]

Right, but 'they killed a bunch of various ethnicities with no rhyme or reason just because they shared a belief' somehow seems less sinister than 'they went out of their way to track down bloodlines to catch every single last person of a specific ethnicity they hated'.

Whether you or I or the bus driver believes that Jews are a "race", the Nazis certainly did. Their extermination plan against Juden was 100% about bloodline, as you call it, and nothing to do with any individual's beliefs.

I recall reading about a Jewess who had converted to Roman Catholicism, and not only that, she had become a closeted nun - spending all her time secluded in a church building praying. List all the stereotypes of bad things Jews do - she was innocent of all of it. Think the Nazis cared?
No, they jackbooted right in, kicked down the door, and dragged her off to a concentration camp - where she later died.
Unfortunately I don't remember her name.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Whether you or I or the bus driver believes that Jews are a "race", the Nazis certainly did. Their extermination plan against Juden was 100% about bloodline, as you call it, and nothing to do with any individual's beliefs.

I recall reading about a Jewess who had converted to Roman Catholicism, and not only that, she had become a closeted nun - spending all her time secluded in a church building praying. List all the stereotypes of bad things Jews do - she was innocent of all of it. Think the Nazis cared?
No, they jackbooted right in, kicked down the door, and dragged her off to a concentration camp - where she later died.
Unfortunately I don't remember her name.

I mean that story makes sense, the Nazis hated jews as a people, not so much a religion. Although they almost certainly hated that aspect too.
But uhh, modern jews also believe they are a specific and defined people. At least israel does.

 

[shangrila]

Again, I made a claim about collectivism in general. It's quite falsifiable: tell me origins of horrors that occurred because of treating people as individuals, not as a collective. And give me more than a few, as I said most.

Honestly, the great man theory of history would be a great place to begin with this. It's not horribly difficult. You could likely cite the inquisition, witch hunts, many forms of slavery (based off of debt or pressganging), etc. All of those were based off of individual actions the victim did. Now I'd still argue that Collectivization has lead to more and worse, but then I'd still need to adjust my statement.

See? It was falsifiable. I literally just did the job you were too lazy to do for you. Next time, maybe actually read what I claimed instead of inventing a position I didn't have.

That's some amazing twisting and turning to try to force others to discuss your esoteric theory instead of that inconvenient demand for behavior that you now want to pretend doesn't exist.

 

[Zachowon]

Sikh and Muslim aren't races though, "jew" is.
Otherwise, what? Holocaust wasn't a genocide at all? What 'race' were the Nazis trying to get rid of again?

Right, but 'they killed a bunch of various ethnicities with no rhyme or reason just because they shared a belief' somehow seems less sinister than 'they went out of their way to track down bloodlines to catch every single last person of a specific ethnicity they hated'.
I'm just basing my opinion off of israel, who tends to get upset if you refer to them as 'Other White people' instead of their own group.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bbc-debate-on-whether-jews-are-an-ethnic-minority-group-sparks-outrage/

Seems to be an eternal debate even within the jewish sphere, but given how israel operates it obviously has a genetic element to it.

I was more pointing out two religions that are often also considered a certain race based solely off thier religion.

The Jewish people are those that have blood going back to Judea.

You can be Jewish but not be Jewish religious.

 

[Scottty]

The problem with Libertarianism.

Stonetoss titled this "you and what army?"

 

[Bacle]

We jews are a relgion.....you might want to rewrite that.

You ever heard of Jews for Jesus?

Not every person born to a Jewish mother remains a part of the Jewish religion, nor do all Jews dismiss the Christian theology as a 'false prophet' situation.

Yes, what that map implies is that the most violent demographics are not new immigrant population, but non-whites who have been there for many centuries.

I'll take a flying guess that in the case of the Red Indians, there would be a clear difference between the ones who are fully assimilated to Anglo culture, those who maintain their own traditional culture... and to the ones who have done neither, but just become an underclass living off government hand-outs.

Nah, the shit on reservations is way, way more complicated than that, and they don't get a lot of 'handouts' due to the way Federal vs State vs Tribal jurisdiction/authority extends.

Also, the Fed gov involuntarily sterilized a lot of native women back in the day, and usually reservations are on the crappiest or just least useful (at the time) piece of land the Feds were willing to give up.

Add in some old tribal grudges and bad blood from before any of them even saw a white person, and some things are issues the white man did not start; seriously, look up how the Apache and Comanche were viewed by their neighbors, or the pueblo vs mesa cultural divides.

Then there is the issue of the Bureau of Indian Affairs possibly being the most useless and corrupt agency in the entire Federal government, and things just keep getting worse for most reservations.