Another WW2 artillery what if

1.Of course.But,when all Allies have beaches,bombing only germans would be easy.They could just destroy everything past 20km from shore.
Yet despite their best efforts and losing over 4000 aircraft they were unable to do so and German reserves arrived. If not for Bagration the breakout would have been impossible despite the heavy damage to the French rail infrastructure.

Later,when they start gaining territory,it would change - but,it would save landing places from being overrun.
Sure.

2.few more A bombs more in 1945 would be enough.And Japan was falling to hunger anyway.All thanks to submarines.
Operation Starvation was not planned on being completed until 1946. Operation Downfall was slated before that. US public will to keep fighting by the end of 1944 was collapsing.
 
Yet despite their best efforts and losing over 4000 aircraft they were unable to do so and German reserves arrived. If not for Bagration the breakout would have been impossible despite the heavy damage to the French rail infrastructure.


Sure.


Operation Starvation was not planned on being completed until 1946. Operation Downfall was slated before that. US public will to keep fighting by the end of 1944 was collapsing.

1&2 - yes,Allies would not break till early 1945.But - they would not be destroyed on beaches,either.
3.Another reason for making more A bombs and use few in Germany,when allies would still be fighting in Paris,and soviets in Kiev.
 
1&2 - yes,Allies would not break till early 1945.But - they would not be destroyed on beaches,either.
Sure, but I don't think the Wallies have the stomach to wait until early 1945 for a breakout given the casualty rates that would ensue and how much of their airpower would be attritted down trying to maintain their positions. The carpet bombing plan was a desperation move to crack the front because of how poorly the campaign was going.

3.Another reason for making more A bombs and use few in Germany,when allies would still be fighting in Paris,and soviets in Kiev.
It wasn't about choice of making more or less but rather resources to actually make more. They'd have been throttled until 1946 due to having to build up capacity to make more. The ones used for the original test and on Japan were effectively hand built. From the memo I found about production capabilities they'd only be able to make bombs 2/3rds the power of the original three until November 1945 at the rate of no more than 3 per month. So they become pointless to use in Europe given the existing bomber fleets could do more damage with existing capabilities.

What would matter is the political will of the public to continue on. If D-day got stuck until early 1945 and casualty rates were high FDR might even lose the election. What really clinched it for him was the fall of Paris in August 1944 and the feeling among the public that the war was about to end.
 
Sure, but I don't think the Wallies have the stomach to wait until early 1945 for a breakout given the casualty rates that would ensue and how much of their airpower would be attritted down trying to maintain their positions. The carpet bombing plan was a desperation move to crack the front because of how poorly the campaign was going.


It wasn't about choice of making more or less but rather resources to actually make more. They'd have been throttled until 1946 due to having to build up capacity to make more. The ones used for the original test and on Japan were effectively hand built. From the memo I found about production capabilities they'd only be able to make bombs 2/3rds the power of the original three until November 1945 at the rate of no more than 3 per month. So they become pointless to use in Europe given the existing bomber fleets could do more damage with existing capabilities.

What would matter is the political will of the public to continue on. If D-day got stuck until early 1945 and casualty rates were high FDR might even lose the election. What really clinched it for him was the fall of Paris in August 1944 and the feeling among the public that the war was about to end.

1.That would depend on politicians - and rate of atrition means,that Luftwaffe would cease to exist by the time aliies have problems.The same goes for german ground forces carpet bombed there.Even Tigers was tossed like toys during those attacks.

2.Republicans win -it would help,they would not serve soviets like democrats.And 3 A bombs per month is still enough to break Germany.
 
AFIAK the Polish gun was simply a domestic version of the French 155 like the US used.
No. The wz.38 155mm cannon was a domestic Polish design. Or an attempt at one ...
Mayhap you were thinking of the obusier 155mm mle 17, the howitzer, not the cannon? It was in Polish use, and AFAIK it was manufactured under licence too.

BTW - for long range artillery to work it needs to know what to fire at. Spotting planes, listening devices ...
 
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1.That would depend on politicians - and rate of atrition means,that Luftwaffe would cease to exist by the time aliies have problems.
Even IOTL the Luftwaffe was still active even in May 1945. Like in Ukraine today if you don't give battle except when you can survive then you can stay alive for when it counts.

The same goes for german ground forces carpet bombed there.Even Tigers was tossed like toys during those attacks.
But the divisions survived. The bombing hurt, but didn't destroy the divisions. Ultimately it took major ground action to break out.

2.Republicans win -it would help,they would not serve soviets like democrats.And 3 A bombs per month is still enough to break Germany.
Not when they're needed for Japan and the IJA.
Dewey is more likely to listen to Dulles and negotiate a deal with Germany to end the war well before nukes are ready. And also not likely to use nukes in Europe.

No. The wz.38 155mm cannon was a domestic Polish design. Or an attempt at one ...
Gotcha. Got a link to the design? I can't find much.

Mayhap you were thinking of the obusier 155mm mle 17, the howitzer, not the cannon? It was in Polish use, and AFAIK it was manufactured under licence too.
Probably.

BTW - for long range artillery to work it needs to know what to fire at. Spotting planes, listening devices ...
Indeed. AFAIK on the eastern front they had enough 'observation' battalions to do the job.
 
First an appology - I mislabelled it as wz.38 while in fact it was wz.40.
Only in Polish, and the text looks like a Polish wank. The parametres for a design in early stages of testing are beyond belief.
27K metres range? Bestest accuracy evah, i.e. 500 metres dispersion versus 1900m of GPF? Barrel test fired on some sort of vaguely termed "120mm mortar mount"? Barrel had to be made by Bofors in Sweden as there was no capability of making such tubes in Poland. Only one example of complete gun with dedicated mount manufactured. 1h to go to into action - seems that it was transported in at least 2 pieces. 15 tons, with no prime mover used by Polish Army at that time powerful enough to comfortably move it about ...

In the II RP autarky was often taken too far.
IMO a vanity project + lining the pockets of some insiders ...

 
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First an appology - I mislabelled it as wz.38 while in fact it was wz.40.
Only in Polish, and the text looks like a Polish wank. The parametres for a design in early stages of testing are beyond belief.
27K metres range? Bestest accuracy evah, i.e. 500 metres dispersion versus 1900m of GPF? Barrel test fired on some sort of vaguely termed "120mm mortar mount"? Barrel had to be made by Bofors in Sweden as there was no capability of making such tubes in Poland. Only one example of complete gun with dedicated mount manufactured. 1h to go to into action - seems that it was transported in at least 2 pieces. 15 tons, with no prime mover used by Polish Army at that time powerful enough to comfortably move it about ...

In the II RP autarky was often taken too far.
IMO a vanity project + lining the pockets of some insiders ...

Actually sounds quite a bit like the 15cm K18 the Germans made:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Kanone_18

The numbers might actually be real in that case, but then no better than the German gun. It would be in an entirely different class than the French 155 GPF due to higher muzzle velocity and longer projectile. As the Germans found out such guns were way too much gun for too little result. 170mm was the way to go for something like that:

Thank you for the info.
 
Since the Allies seem to really have gotten their artillery park right in WW2

Artillery park is, relatively speaking, a minor factor. Far more important is ammo (output).

While the Allies had the right kind of guns, they had far too little ammo relative to their potential (and probably too few guns as well). The US Army faced a shell crisis in the midst of the NWE campaign. Hard to believe but yes, the world's incomparably richest country was outproduced by Germany (factor of ~2) in the most critical economic aspect of modern warfare.

Germany typically spent ~25% of its Wehrmacht weapons budget on arty ammo. The US spent ~4% of its Army procurement on arty ammo.

Just consider the hypo where the US had spent ~10x as much on ammo (so ~25% of total military expenditure, including USN).

Combine that with a few more barrels and artillerists (US could train up an independent artillery battalion in 6 months, shorter than a division) and the US Army can blast its way through any opposition, any time it wants.

The problem with Allied artillery wasn't artillery; it was aircraft. The Allies convinced themselves that big land wars were over because they didn't want to fight big land wars. They therefore devoted >70% of war production to non-army items and found themselves hoping the Red Army would win the war for them.
 
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Even IOTL the Luftwaffe was still active even in May 1945. Like in Ukraine today if you don't give battle except when you can survive then you can stay alive for when it counts.


But the divisions survived. The bombing hurt, but didn't destroy the divisions. Ultimately it took major ground action to break out.


Not when they're needed for Japan and the IJA.
Dewey is more likely to listen to Dulles and negotiate a deal with Germany to end the war well before nukes are ready. And also not likely to use nukes in Europe.


Gotcha. Got a link to the design? I can't find much.


Probably.


Indeed. AFAIK on the eastern front they had enough 'observation' battalions to do the job.
1.On East Front,when they bombed soviets used even Ju87 during day till they have fuel and bombs.Against Allies,they failed.

2.But it stopped dyvision.And that what matter here - germans could not destroy Allies,only contain them for,let say,6-8 months.Enough for war to last longer,note enough to win.

3.Deal with Germany - not possible for political reasons.USA was still democracy - and you could not made deal with monsters showed as monsters in your media,becouse people would not support that.
USA could gave Poand to soviets only becouse soviets in media was showed as kind of paradise with good "uncle Joe",but they could not made peace with Germany,becouse they must tell people that either they are too weak to defeat monsters,or monsters are as nice as uncle joe and they lied about germans for 4 years.

P.S considering that both germans and soviets were genociders,saing that germans was as nice as soviets is,technically,true.They were both monsters,after all.

4.About 155mm wz40 gun - @Buba is right,it was oryginal gun,but still probably impossible to made for us.
 
Artillery park is, relatively speaking, a minor factor. Far more important is ammo (output).
Good to see you back. Agree with the above to a point. Ammo supply is very important, but having the right weapons is crucial too. You can have all the ammo in the world, but if all you have are 81mm mortars you will get wrecked by an opponent with 105mm howitzers.


While the Allies had the right kind of guns, they had far too little ammo relative to their potential (and probably too few guns as well). The US Army faced a shell crisis in the midst of the NWE campaign. Hard to believe but yes, the world's incomparably richest country was outproduced by Germany (factor of ~2) in the most critical economic aspect of modern warfare.
Eh, that's very contextual. A big part of the supply problem during the NWE campaign was the port capacity problem and inland supply. Allied bombing had severely damaged the rail network of NWE Europe and the Germans still held most of the ports or have prevented them being used for the majority of the remainder of the war, so getting supplies to the front was very difficult. Not only that, but shipping things out of US ports was often difficult and in the case of tanks even though there existed enough getting through the logistical train turned out to be impossible due to maxed out capacity.

Plus there were a series of increasing labor strikes in 1944-45 in the US.

Also Germany had a much bigger need to actually use shells than the US did, so they would necessarily spend more on ammo.

Germany typically spent ~25% of its Wehrmacht weapons budget on arty ammo. The US spent ~4% of its Army procurement on arty ammo
Comparison out of context. How many more tubes did the Germans have to feed? See the difference in the number of divisions and intensity of combat they were actually involved in as well as how much the US army spend on their air force.

Just consider the hypo where the US had spent ~10x as much on ammo (so ~25% of total military expenditure, including USN).
Given the economy was zero sum what would they have give up? How much could they have gotten through the rotten logistical situation in NWE?

Combine that with a few more barrels and artillerists (US could train up an independent artillery battalion in 6 months, shorter than a division) and the US Army can blast its way through any opposition, any time it wants.
Again see the supply situation and think about what they'd have to give up. Remember they also a manpower crisis in 1944 and had plenty of artillery relative to their ground forces, more GHQ units IIRC than Germany with an army a fraction of the size of the German one. How much more artillery did the US really even need?

The problem with Allied artillery wasn't artillery; it was aircraft. The Allies convinced themselves that big land wars were over because they didn't want to fight big land wars. They therefore devoted >70% of war production to non-army items and found themselves hoping the Red Army would win the war for them.
Division of labor. The Reds were really only good at having a massive army capable of soaking up the casualties and locking the bulk of the Axis armies down, while the US could invest heavily in their air force and wear down German resources that way. Looks like their strategy worked out heavily in their favor.
 
1.On East Front,when they bombed soviets used even Ju87 during day till they have fuel and bombs.Against Allies,they failed.
Not really accurate. The only time before 1942 in the west that the Ju87 couldn't function during the day was during the Battle of Britain since they had to fly a distance before getting to the target against the best integrated air defense system in the world at that point. The Bf110 also failed then, but was still useful most other places. Also remember the Ju87 was used successfully in late 1942/early 1943 in Tunisia and North Africa as well.

2.But it stopped dyvision.And that what matter here - germans could not destroy Allies,only contain them for,let say,6-8 months.Enough for war to last longer,note enough to win.
So if we are saying the Allies are stuck on 3 of the beaches they took IOTL and remain in an Anzio type situation for 6-8 months with Normandy casualty rates I do wonder if they will simply withdraw after trying to land somewhere else to break the deadlock, because politically staying stuck with lots of casualties is electoral suicide in 1944.

3.Deal with Germany - not possible for political reasons.USA was still democracy - and you could not made deal with monsters showed as monsters in your media,becouse people would not support that.
Even as late as January 1944 40% of Americans polled said they'd be willing to deal with the German army if they overthrew Hitler. That was despite winning and propaganda saying they needed to go all the way. If propaganda changed and supported a peace deal enough people would shift to support peace; hell look at how much influence the media has these days over public opinion. That said I think you're right in the sense that the public wouldn't deal with Hitler, but they would support a coup government or one that had the Nazis leave positions of power even voluntarily for the army to take over.

The US was not the USSR in the sense of the public demanding final victory no matter the cost; in the US it was the politicians demanding that and forcing the public to go along.

USA could gave Poand to soviets only becouse soviets in media was showed as kind of paradise with good "uncle Joe",but they could not made peace with Germany,becouse they must tell people that either they are too weak to defeat monsters,or monsters are as nice as uncle joe and they lied about germans for 4 years.
FDR did that, not the American public. Different president different foreign policy.

P.S considering that both germans and soviets were genociders,saing that germans was as nice as soviets is,technically,true.They were both monsters,after all.
Not disputing that.

4.About 155mm wz40 gun - @Buba is right,it was oryginal gun,but still probably impossible to made for us.
In time it would probably be possible given that they were sourcing components they couldn't make at home abroad. But in 1939 there was no way to make it.
 
Not really accurate. The only time before 1942 in the west that the Ju87 couldn't function during the day was during the Battle of Britain since they had to fly a distance before getting to the target against the best integrated air defense system in the world at that point. The Bf110 also failed then, but was still useful most other places. Also remember the Ju87 was used successfully in late 1942/early 1943 in Tunisia and North Africa as well.


So if we are saying the Allies are stuck on 3 of the beaches they took IOTL and remain in an Anzio type situation for 6-8 months with Normandy casualty rates I do wonder if they will simply withdraw after trying to land somewhere else to break the deadlock, because politically staying stuck with lots of casualties is electoral suicide in 1944.


Even as late as January 1944 40% of Americans polled said they'd be willing to deal with the German army if they overthrew Hitler. That was despite winning and propaganda saying they needed to go all the way. If propaganda changed and supported a peace deal enough people would shift to support peace; hell look at how much influence the media has these days over public opinion. That said I think you're right in the sense that the public wouldn't deal with Hitler, but they would support a coup government or one that had the Nazis leave positions of power even voluntarily for the army to take over.

The US was not the USSR in the sense of the public demanding final victory no matter the cost; in the US it was the politicians demanding that and forcing the public to go along.


FDR did that, not the American public. Different president different foreign policy.


Not disputing that.


In time it would probably be possible given that they were sourcing components they couldn't make at home abroad. But in 1939 there was no way to make it.

1.In France,germans could use only jet bombers to attack Allies during day,rest was quickly destoyed,even figfhters - look at hungarian air forces,they fought soviets without problems,till USA attacked them - and it was destroyed in week or two.

2.Not on 3 beaches,but on bigger position - i quess,that everything up to 20km would be taken/battleships/

3.Yes,made deal without Hitler.Not possible,Hitler would kill generals like in OTL.
Problem like with Russia now - USA could not made deal without killing Putin.
 
1.In France,germans could use only jet bombers to attack Allies during day,rest was quickly destoyed,even figfhters - look at hungarian air forces,they fought soviets without problems,till USA attacked them - and it was destroyed in week or two.
In 1944-45 sure. The reason the USAAF was that dominating was sheer size they just swamped their enemies with in conjunction with their rather powerful allies.

2.Not on 3 beaches,but on bigger position - i quess,that everything up to 20km would be taken/battleships/
Not literally on 3 beaches, just that 3 beaches succeed on D-day and the push inland is constrained by that initial starting position. 20km sounds reasonable for the limit of advance, but as James Holland wrote about the campaign that constrained perimeter prevents the Allies from developing their strength or effectively rotating units and imposes a pretty nasty attritional situation on the air forces due to having to only based in England and fly across for every sortie. It could be maintained, but only at a high cost, one that could well be prohibitive if they cannot break out reasonably quickly (3-4 months). Personally though I think they'd still try to launch Dragoon to break the deadlock, so everything would hinge on if that works if the Soviets are in a worse position and the eastern front is stable.

3.Yes,made deal without Hitler.Not possible,Hitler would kill generals like in OTL.
Problem like with Russia now - USA could not made deal without killing Putin.
Depends. Despite having the devil's luck Hitler very nearly got killed in the OTL attempt; in an ATL especially with the US willing to cut a deal the extra support for the coup could make it work in an ATL. IOTL a big thing hindering the coup from working was the Allied refusal to even try to negotiate a deal to remove Hitler; the OTL coupists were a minority of potential army officers who would have been willing to kill Hitler to end the war. A different war situation would probably delay an assassination attempt until the US election was over so they could see if they would have a new president to try and cut a deal with; given the Republican OSS officers were trying to negotiate with the coupists to remove Hitler a Republican president might be willing to listen to them to end the war and keep the Soviets out of Central Europe; Churchill was worried about that too and would be trying to work with Dewey to see if they could change the unconditional surrender policy if Hitler was couped.
 
In 1944-45 sure. The reason the USAAF was that dominating was sheer size they just swamped their enemies with in conjunction with their rather powerful allies.


Not literally on 3 beaches, just that 3 beaches succeed on D-day and the push inland is constrained by that initial starting position. 20km sounds reasonable for the limit of advance, but as James Holland wrote about the campaign that constrained perimeter prevents the Allies from developing their strength or effectively rotating units and imposes a pretty nasty attritional situation on the air forces due to having to only based in England and fly across for every sortie. It could be maintained, but only at a high cost, one that could well be prohibitive if they cannot break out reasonably quickly (3-4 months). Personally though I think they'd still try to launch Dragoon to break the deadlock, so everything would hinge on if that works if the Soviets are in a worse position and the eastern front is stable.


Depends. Despite having the devil's luck Hitler very nearly got killed in the OTL attempt; in an ATL especially with the US willing to cut a deal the extra support for the coup could make it work in an ATL. IOTL a big thing hindering the coup from working was the Allied refusal to even try to negotiate a deal to remove Hitler; the OTL coupists were a minority of potential army officers who would have been willing to kill Hitler to end the war. A different war situation would probably delay an assassination attempt until the US election was over so they could see if they would have a new president to try and cut a deal with; given the Republican OSS officers were trying to negotiate with the coupists to remove Hitler a Republican president might be willing to listen to them to end the war and keep the Soviets out of Central Europe; Churchill was worried about that too and would be trying to work with Dewey to see if they could change the unconditional surrender policy if Hitler was couped.

1.Scheer numbers do not matter.Soviet have the same numerical advantage as Allies in air,AND... Rudel used Ju87 till the end of war during day,and only german battleships sunked on Baltic was sunked by BRITISH FUCKING HEAVY BOMBERS.
So no,it is not matter of numbers.

2.Which stil mean,that german dyvisions positioned there would be destroyed after those 4 months.Allies have fresh units,germans - not so.

3.If they could deal with Canaris - sure.But you forget about Himmler - Allies could not made deal with SS,so ,even if Hitler get killed,we would get cyvil war in germany - which mean,quick fall of state.

Moreover,german population really supported Hitler - even in Berlin,people til April 1945 belived in miracle and supported him.After failed coup,Wermacht officers must be escorted by SS - otherwise,cyviians would kill them.

So,either we have failed coup and germans fighting to the end,or cyvil war and quick fall of state.
 
1.Scheer numbers do not matter.Soviet have the same numerical advantage as Allies in air,AND... Rudel used Ju87 till the end of war during day,and only german battleships sunked on Baltic was sunked by BRITISH FUCKING HEAVY BOMBERS.
So no,it is not matter of numbers.
WW2's outcome says otherwise. Hell Japan couldn't win in China due to the sheer numbers they faced.
Soviet doctrine was very different regarding the air force; early on they lost so badly because half their air fleet was so poorly built/maintained it either fell out of the sky or was written off. I'm not kidding of you look up the losses of 1941 over half were non-combat related. After they figured that out though their army support air force did its job. Not perfectly, but it wore down the Axis and kept the army from being smashed from the air. Don't forget though that the Wallied numbers count in the overall sheer numbers category. US doctrine was to basically attrition the Luftwaffe to death regardless of cost and it worked despite the horrible casualties they took.

Rudel was shot down something like 17 times and lost a leg.

IIRC that battleship you are talking about was sunk in Norway after years of trying to destroy it.

2.Which stil mean,that german dyvisions positioned there would be destroyed after those 4 months.Allies have fresh units,germans - not so.
Are you talking about in Normandy? I'm not disputing that the Wallied bench was deeper, but trying to rotate them out of a narrow bridgehead is pretty tough; for the Germans rotating them out is much easier especially if the bridgehead is contained in a narrow strip, again see Anzio.
But again we are talking about an ATL where the Eastern Front is potentially more stable by 1944, so there is the ability to rotate divisions rather than have a bunch of cascading crises.

3.If they could deal with Canaris - sure.But you forget about Himmler - Allies could not made deal with SS,so ,even if Hitler get killed,we would get cyvil war in germany - which mean,quick fall of state.
The SS only really rose to their dominating position after the failed coup and purge; prior they could have been dealt with even if it would mean a short civil war. Most Germans wanted the war to end via negotation.

Moreover,german population really supported Hitler - even in Berlin,people til April 1945 belived in miracle and supported him.After failed coup,Wermacht officers must be escorted by SS - otherwise,cyviians would kill them.
I've seen that disputed; Hitler's popularity fell off a cliff after Stalingrad and the increasing number of defeats. What Germans really were irritated by was the coup attempt that failed. Had it succeeded and the media been controlled the average person wouldn't have done anything. After all the only people who could have, fighting age men, were mostly in the army and the Ersatzheer was firmly on the side of the coupists, while those at the front had no idea what was going on or ability to change anything.

Remember by 1944 the only civilians really left were children, women not in the military, or old people. AKA not the kind of people who could threaten a soldier. IOTL a US army general (ridgeway) asked a German civilian why they hadn't risen up against the diehards still fighting in 1945, he was told that if the full weight of the American military was still having trouble defeating them what hope did unarmed civilians have against those men.

So,either we have failed coup and germans fighting to the end,or cyvil war and quick fall of state.
Disagree for the reasons above.
 
WW2's outcome says otherwise. Hell Japan couldn't win in China due to the sheer numbers they faced.
Soviet doctrine was very different regarding the air force; early on they lost so badly because half their air fleet was so poorly built/maintained it either fell out of the sky or was written off. I'm not kidding of you look up the losses of 1941 over half were non-combat related. After they figured that out though their army support air force did its job. Not perfectly, but it wore down the Axis and kept the army from being smashed from the air. Don't forget though that the Wallied numbers count in the overall sheer numbers category. US doctrine was to basically attrition the Luftwaffe to death regardless of cost and it worked despite the horrible casualties they took.

Rudel was shot down something like 17 times and lost a leg.

IIRC that battleship you are talking about was sunk in Norway after years of trying to destroy it.


Are you talking about in Normandy? I'm not disputing that the Wallied bench was deeper, but trying to rotate them out of a narrow bridgehead is pretty tough; for the Germans rotating them out is much easier especially if the bridgehead is contained in a narrow strip, again see Anzio.
But again we are talking about an ATL where the Eastern Front is potentially more stable by 1944, so there is the ability to rotate divisions rather than have a bunch of cascading crises.


The SS only really rose to their dominating position after the failed coup and purge; prior they could have been dealt with even if it would mean a short civil war. Most Germans wanted the war to end via negotation.


I've seen that disputed; Hitler's popularity fell off a cliff after Stalingrad and the increasing number of defeats. What Germans really were irritated by was the coup attempt that failed. Had it succeeded and the media been controlled the average person wouldn't have done anything. After all the only people who could have, fighting age men, were mostly in the army and the Ersatzheer was firmly on the side of the coupists, while those at the front had no idea what was going on or ability to change anything.

Remember by 1944 the only civilians really left were children, women not in the military, or old people. AKA not the kind of people who could threaten a soldier. IOTL a US army general (ridgeway) asked a German civilian why they hadn't risen up against the diehards still fighting in 1945, he was told that if the full weight of the American military was still having trouble defeating them what hope did unarmed civilians have against those men.


Disagree for the reasons above.

1.Still soviet was bombed by Ju87 till the end of war - and ,about battleships - i am not taking about Tirpitz,but old WW1 battleship Schielsen and some pocket battleship/Lutzow?/ both sunked on Baltic by british heavy bombers.

2.Still allied could allow more casualties then germans

3.SS have 38 dyvisions in 1944 with best stuff - so,it would be not short cyvil war.

4.If putch was popular,germans would support it in OTL.They did not.
 
1.Still soviet was bombed by Ju87 till the end of war - and ,about battleships - i am not taking about Tirpitz,but old WW1 battleship Schielsen and some pocket battleship/Lutzow?/ both sunked on Baltic by british heavy bombers.
AFAIK by 1945 unless in an area of total air control (extremely rare) they weren't used during the day, just as night bombers.

As to the Schliesen:
It hit a British air dropped naval mine but didn't sink.

The Lutzow was hit by bombs, but not sunk:

Both sides were scuttled by crew at the end of the war.

2.Still allied could allow more casualties then germans
Theoretically, but the problem is getting those units into action. Constraining port and territory held would be a major obstacle to deploying and rotating units. Couple that with the storm that smashed the Mulberry harbors and things get tough.


If some of the beaches fail then the constrained logistics situation caused by the storms would severely undercut the sustainability of the bridgehead. Which brings us to my point here: it didn't take much change to bring about significant alterations to major campaigns, which could have massive strategic consequences. That said Overlord being trapped at the beaches still helps tie down German forces and allows for Dragoon to be carried out in Southern France, which might break the deadlock in the Allies' favor.

3.SS have 38 dyvisions in 1944 with best stuff - so,it would be not short cyvil war.
Less than half of those were worth a damn or had sufficient equipment. Most of the ones over the 12th SS in numbering had insufficient manpower or equipment in 1944. It was really only 1-12 that were decently equipped and even then that was highly contextual with some not really being notable like the 4th SS division, which was intended as a police/security unit.
Also remember many of them were foreign units which would not fight in a civil war if push came to shove. Also remember at their very peak the SS had about 800,000 men (not in July 1944 and mostly at the fornt), while the replacement army alone (not at the front) had over 1 million men.

4.If putch was popular,germans would support it in OTL.They did not.
It failed IOTL. Hitler lived and was able to broadcast quickly after the attempt before the coupists got their plot rolling. In that case due to wanting to avoid a civil war most civilians just waited to see what the outcome would be. The reality is most people in a period of conflict don't want to get involved even if they support one side or the other since they aren't fighters. By 1944 the average German was either female, a child, or old, so had zero ability to decide the coup one way or the other. The younger men with guns were the ones who decided and most had no idea what was going on until it was already over.
 
AFAIK by 1945 unless in an area of total air control (extremely rare) they weren't used during the day, just as night bombers.

As to the Schliesen:
It hit a British air dropped naval mine but didn't sink.

The Lutzow was hit by bombs, but not sunk:

Both sides were scuttled by crew at the end of the war.


Theoretically, but the problem is getting those units into action. Constraining port and territory held would be a major obstacle to deploying and rotating units. Couple that with the storm that smashed the Mulberry harbors and things get tough.


If some of the beaches fail then the constrained logistics situation caused by the storms would severely undercut the sustainability of the bridgehead. Which brings us to my point here: it didn't take much change to bring about significant alterations to major campaigns, which could have massive strategic consequences. That said Overlord being trapped at the beaches still helps tie down German forces and allows for Dragoon to be carried out in Southern France, which might break the deadlock in the Allies' favor.


Less than half of those were worth a damn or had sufficient equipment. Most of the ones over the 12th SS in numbering had insufficient manpower or equipment in 1944. It was really only 1-12 that were decently equipped and even then that was highly contextual with some not really being notable like the 4th SS division, which was intended as a police/security unit.
Also remember many of them were foreign units which would not fight in a civil war if push came to shove. Also remember at their very peak the SS had about 800,000 men (not in July 1944 and mostly at the fornt), while the replacement army alone (not at the front) had over 1 million men.


It failed IOTL. Hitler lived and was able to broadcast quickly after the attempt before the coupists got their plot rolling. In that case due to wanting to avoid a civil war most civilians just waited to see what the outcome would be. The reality is most people in a period of conflict don't want to get involved even if they support one side or the other since they aren't fighters. By 1944 the average German was either female, a child, or old, so had zero ability to decide the coup one way or the other. The younger men with guns were the ones who decided and most had no idea what was going on until it was already over.

1.In my sources,both was sunked by british,and it is book from commie times where soviet navy is praised,and Marat was not sunked.
And - all what soviet manage to achieve was sunking 2 german small destroyers,only one by planes.
And german cruisers and small battleships schelled soviet forces till they were out of ammo - when soviets have 10:1 advantage in air.

2.Then,allies would just keep there indian and polish units.Nobody care,if they suffer.

3.The same goes for Wermacht,and european units in SS,except italians,were elites,too.
And they fought for Hitler,not germany.

4.Wermacht did nothing - and,you claim that they could smash SS.Which i doubt.
 
1.In my sources,both was sunked by british,and it is book from commie times where soviet navy is praised,and Marat was not sunked.
And - all what soviet manage to achieve was sunking 2 german small destroyers,only one by planes.
And german cruisers and small battleships schelled soviet forces till they were out of ammo - when soviets have 10:1 advantage in air.
Sure, the Russian navy before their subs got out performed pretty dismally in naval combat, but were highly useful for providing fire support for Leningrad and moving units about. Really the German and Soviet navies' both were probably more useful for supplements to ground combat than for fighting the navy of the other side.

2.Then,allies would just keep there indian and polish units.Nobody care,if they suffer.
Indians weren't used in France and the Polish units only came in later. The latter could be filtered in eventually, but the US and Brits/Canadians used their best for the initial assault and those units, those that survive, would be stuck holding the perimeter for a while while getting more divisions in would be tough, especially after the storm.

3.The same goes for Wermacht,and european units in SS,except italians,were elites,too.
And they fought for Hitler,not germany.
Eh, not really. The regular army fought for Germany despite for that oath and by 1944 the SS were conscripted too, which is how Gunter Grass ended up in an SS panzer division at 16.
Some were elite many were not. The Russian units fell apart the first time they faced real combat, the Ukrainians didn't do that well, the Bosnians revolted and killed their German officers, etc.

4.Wermacht did nothing - and,you claim that they could smash SS.Which i doubt.
Because Hitler lived and they ultimately chose to side with him since otherwise it would result in a nasty civil war. I'm talking about an ATL where Hitler is killed so the motivation to fight for guys like Himmler wouldn't be there for the average German; by 1944 only Hitler was still popular among the Nazi leaders.
 

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