Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

I doubt that the New Deal will be rolled back since it will likely be too entrenched by then. Ike didn't try to roll it back, after all.

Would agree a surviving New Deal remains the more likely scenario, yes.

However, considering how ad hominems are part and parcel when it comes to elections or discrediting your political opponents, you might still have the GOP conflating FDR's grip on power with the New Deal itself being bad — which isn't necessarily correct, but when has that stopped the dogged partisans from doing it, anyway, you know? ;)
 
I've spent a few hours contemplating alternatives to Christianity amongst the Germanic tribes. The mystery religion that stood out the most was the Cult of Isis/Isiacism, which was semi-popular across the Mediterranean Basin, because at least two kings of the Alemanni (Mederic and Agenaric/Serapio) practiced it in the mid-4th century.

The defeat and death of Agenaric-Serapio at the Battle of Strasbourg in 357 seems to have discredited Isis/Serapis-worship amongst the Alemanni. The logical 'fix' to this, then, would be to have the Alemanni defeat the Romans and overrun Gaul, legitimizing Isis/Serapis as the 'religion of victory'. The problem with this is the mass enslavement and resettlement of Romans that the Alemanni were performing at the time; thus, a massive victory would only result in the resettlement of Romans in Alemanni territory; as Christianity was stronger than Isiacism, I'm pretty sure this would only strengthen Christianity among the Alemanni and undermine any gains the Isis Cult makes.

Thoughts on a solution? @Skallagrim, since you seem to be fairly well informed about the period.
 
'AHC: Make FDR Lose In A Landslide'.

Crushing him in 1932 or '36 is wishful thinking, and while he seemed to be losing steam by 1940, having him lose in a blowout then is also a stretch. Losing in '44, I can halfway entertain, though trouncing him by McGovern '72, Carter '80, or Mondale '84 levels is where the "challenge" part of AHC comes in. 🧐

Smarter Poland could do that.Fighting soviets for real in 1939,showing in USA proofs of soviet crimes,and before 1944 election after 5 years of soviet crimes show say people,that FDR would sell Europe to soviets.
Polish minority would vote for republicans,many catholics and christians in USA would do the same.

Unfortunatelly for both USA and Poland,our leaders were idiots.
 
I've spent a few hours contemplating alternatives to Christianity amongst the Germanic tribes. The mystery religion that stood out the most was the Cult of Isis/Isiacism, which was semi-popular across the Mediterranean Basin, because at least two kings of the Alemanni (Mederic and Agenaric/Serapio) practiced it in the mid-4th century.

The defeat and death of Agenaric-Serapio at the Battle of Strasbourg in 357 seems to have discredited Isis/Serapis-worship amongst the Alemanni. The logical 'fix' to this, then, would be to have the Alemanni defeat the Romans and overrun Gaul, legitimizing Isis/Serapis as the 'religion of victory'. The problem with this is the mass enslavement and resettlement of Romans that the Alemanni were performing at the time; thus, a massive victory would only result in the resettlement of Romans in Alemanni territory; as Christianity was stronger than Isiacism, I'm pretty sure this would only strengthen Christianity among the Alemanni and undermine any gains the Isis Cult makes.

Thoughts on a solution? @Skallagrim, since you seem to be fairly well informed about the period.

What about a more successful Julian, who defeated the Alemanni after all. If he avoids his OTL fate in Iran, which is fairly easy to occur then Christianity itself will be questioned across the empire and also those neighbouring regions in contact with it.

Then when the Goths are defeated by the Huns, this guy, Athanaric is far more likely to gain imperial favour than the Arian Fritigern and you could see an alliance holding/defeating the Huns either on the Danube or possibly even in the Carpathian region.

With a stronger non-Christian emperor allied to at least some of the German tribes and possibly inviting them in as allies you could see Arianism, the primary Christian grouping largely discredited and extinguished among them. Of course you would need to gravely weaken Christianity to have it not come back at some later time given how aggressive it is but may not be impossible.
 
What about a more successful Julian, who defeated the Alemanni after all. If he avoids his OTL fate in Iran, which is fairly easy to occur then Christianity itself will be questioned across the empire and also those neighbouring regions in contact with it.

Then when the Goths are defeated by the Huns, this guy, Athanaric is far more likely to gain imperial favour than the Arian Fritigern and you could see an alliance holding/defeating the Huns either on the Danube or possibly even in the Carpathian region.

With a stronger non-Christian emperor allied to at least some of the German tribes and possibly inviting them in as allies you could see Arianism, the primary Christian grouping largely discredited and extinguished among them. Of course you would need to gravely weaken Christianity to have it not come back at some later time given how aggressive it is but may not be impossible.

Aggressive Chrystianity? who send people to lions,christians or Julian The betrael?
You really hate God too much to see what really could happen.
Pagan state failed,becouse nobody belived in their shit anymore.You could not change that.
 
I've spent a few hours contemplating alternatives to Christianity amongst the Germanic tribes. The mystery religion that stood out the most was the Cult of Isis/Isiacism, which was semi-popular across the Mediterranean Basin, because at least two kings of the Alemanni (Mederic and Agenaric/Serapio) practiced it in the mid-4th century.

The defeat and death of Agenaric-Serapio at the Battle of Strasbourg in 357 seems to have discredited Isis/Serapis-worship amongst the Alemanni. The logical 'fix' to this, then, would be to have the Alemanni defeat the Romans and overrun Gaul, legitimizing Isis/Serapis as the 'religion of victory'. The problem with this is the mass enslavement and resettlement of Romans that the Alemanni were performing at the time; thus, a massive victory would only result in the resettlement of Romans in Alemanni territory; as Christianity was stronger than Isiacism, I'm pretty sure this would only strengthen Christianity among the Alemanni and undermine any gains the Isis Cult makes.

Thoughts on a solution? @Skallagrim, since you seem to be fairly well informed about the period.
I have serious doubts about the prospects for a Cult of Isis among the Germanic peoples-- at least with this POD (although it would require a lot of wrangling, or 'steering the time-line', in any case). We should note that though he was (we may be pretty sure) the brother of Chnodomar (who appears to have been the high king of the Allamanic confederation), Mederic was a so-called 'petty king' (we should really just say chieftain) of one of the Allamannic tribe-bands. He was introduced to Greek philosophy and cultism in Gaul, and he was really into it. Whether the rest of his kinsmen shared his enthousiasm is... pretty doubtful.

His son Agenaric (a.k.a. Serapio) was into it, obviously. And he was second-in-command to his uncle Chnodomar in military affairs, so we may argue that he was in a sufficiently influential position to extoll the virtues of his faith. Problem: it was very much just that-- a faith. Not a religion. It lacked the organisational structure that would be needed to really "take over". (Which is why I doubt the notion that Mederic and Agenaric represented some kind of whole-sale conversion of the tribe. I think the Hellenic cultism was preference that was pretty much unique to them specifically.)

Even if Chnodomar and Agenaric win a stunning victory at Straßburg and even if this prompts Chnodomar to join the Cult of Isis on the spot and even if the Allamanic confederation ultimately decides that this is the religion for them because it brings victory and glory and therefore must be true...

...They're still just one people, surrounded by neighbours who don't share their beliefs. There is no real impulse to set up a Church (because the old Germanic faith didn't have one, either), so I see the cult becoming (at most) the ethnic faith of the Allamans in particular. Which will isolate them, and most probably lead to their defeat and forced conversion in the longer term.



Ultimately, I feel that the only practical way to out-compete Christianity is to play at the same level. Christianity had several advantages. Number one, it had an organised Church hierarchy, which is great. Number two, it had official literature that was compact, explicitly holy, and very-well suited to preaching the doctrine to both the faithful and the prospective converts. Number three, it openly embraced the poor and downtrodden, and that means you automatically have numbers on your side. Number four, it had that youthful zeal, prompting both an aura of doctrinal purity and real commitment amongst the faithful. (People who are willing to be eaten by lions for their faith tend to leave more of an impression than people who are willing to throw others to the lions-- funny how that works.) Number five, it was actually demanding of the faithful, which is what people actually want in a religion. (It has to challenge the soul. Otherwise you might just as well join a social club.)

I'm sure there's more to consider, but this paints the picture.

Julian actually understood this fairly well. He not only did his utmost to create a fusion of Greek philosophy, Neo-Platonist mysticism and traditional Greco-Roman faith and mythology-- he actively structured it to be able to compete with Christianity. He wanted the priesthood organised and structured in a hierarchical organisation, as with Christianity. He re-imagined the temples to be more like Christian churches in function, with services and rituals that were more like the ones that yielded such success for Christianity. He wanted to compile a 'canonical' version of the Greco-Roman mythology, infused with philosophical ideas, so that it could be a counterpart to the Christian scripture. He specifically created legislation that would make caring for the poor the exclusive domain of his priesthood (trying to push the Christians "out of the alms business", so to speak).

So @stevep has a point there: Julian was probably the best bet. He wasn't some fellow trying to "revive the old ways". What he was trying to create was something dramatically different, and probably capable of succeeding, had he lived (and had he been able to get enough key figures to join his cause, which isn't unrealistic).

This would mean that by default, Julian's religion probably makes it big among the Germanic peoples, too, eventually. Or just as plausibly, they end up adapting their own existing mythology and merge it with the same kind of philosophical notions, forging a "Germanic sister religion" to the one Julian created. Yggdrasil as the cosmic axis mundi, the Germanic deities like emanations of a greater encompassing divinity, the nine realms of Germanic myth re-cast as layers of reality, closer to and further from the true Forms that lie beyond...

It's not that hard to imagine.
 
Last edited:
‘General Patton’s Fatal Car Accident Never Happens’.

It never happened,becouse it was not accident.NKWD with USA goverment support killed him.
Robert Wilcox proved it in his book.Here:

Good written book,i liked reading it.

So,as long as Democrats ruled USA and helped soviets,Patton would be murdered.
You must let Republicans win in 1944 to change that.
 
'AHC: Have WWI still break out and have the same outcome as in real life, with Anglo-American participation on the winning Entente side, but only have WWI break out after the completion of the December 1915 Imperial Russian census'
 
Napoleon Bonaparte is picked for the Laperouse expedition and shares it's fate.

The butterflies, I reckon the siege of Toulon takes a bit longer and royalist uprising in Paris would still be defeated, but mayor changes might start with the Italian campaign, where the French will probably do worse, possibly resulting in Directorate not succeeding in taking power.
 
'2001 Iraq To 1941'.

On January 1st of both years, just so we're clear. Once read a short TL about 1990 Iraq being back-timed to 1941, but would like to hear your thoughts on this slightly different scenario.
 
Aggressive Chrystianity? who send people to lions,christians or Julian The betrael?
You really hate God too much to see what really could happen.
Pagan state failed,becouse nobody belived in their shit anymore.You could not change that.

Julian didn't and was very moderate in his behaviour unlike the Christians of the time who often indulged in slaughter, where of non-Christians or other Christians who were on the 'wrong' side of often irrelevant questions of doctrine and dogma.

I detest liars and fanatics - as well as the terminally corrupt - who are willing to abuse and murder people to gained their own twisted aims.
 
No Iranian Revolution should do the trick here.

In that case, what happens to Imam Khomeini?

Obviously, I'm guessing the Shah remains in power here, which means Iran stays chummy with the West for much longer. This, despite simmering resentment among the common faithful that, in all likelihood, hasn't gone away...
 
Obviously, I'm guessing the Shah remains in power here, which means Iran stays chummy with the West for much longer. This, despite simmering resentment among the common faithful that, in all likelihood, hasn't gone away...
Perhaps his health issues start sooner and he abdicates in favour of his son. Changes of monarch tend to give subjects hope of better times, so Reza would have a few years of breathing space, with USA less in hurry to throw him under bus. There will still be massive problems, like poverty of majority of population, restless minorities, People's Mujahedins, mullahs...
 
Here's an Idea, America Collapses in 2008 and divulges into a civil war that lasts until 2015 leaving a few new nations, such as a united South, a splintered North, a united (yet weakened) pacific coast and a clusterfuck of independent nations between them.
 
Julian didn't and was very moderate in his behaviour unlike the Christians of the time who often indulged in slaughter, where of non-Christians or other Christians who were on the 'wrong' side of often irrelevant questions of doctrine and dogma.

I detest liars and fanatics - as well as the terminally corrupt - who are willing to abuse and murder people to gained their own twisted aims.

He was among christian legions.Of course,that he could not start massacring them.But ,if he could,he would the same what pagan emperors did.
You belive in some soviet fairy tale about bad christians and good pagans.

And pagans really failed,becouse nobody belived in their shit anymore.Otherwise emperors would never become christians.
Julian the betrayel was among christian soldiers.

P.S @History Learner ,you want cyvil war in USA in 2008? easy-peasy,competent Putin murder Obama and blame it on bad white males.You have your war.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top