Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[sillygoose]

By geographic isolation, do you mean southern Italy specifically or all of Italy?

Also, off-topic, but other than Franz Ferdinand and Jean Jaures, who were some of the biggest doves in pre-WWI Europe? Kaiser Bill was arguably a dove until his friend FF got murdered in Sarajevo, but who else?

All of the world at the time. Very few people could and did travel much outside their region.
Nicky seems pretty mild in terms of foreign conflicts. Communists and Socialists.

 

[Zyobot]

'ROB Gifts An Accurate World Map To The Phoenicians'.

Right as they're about to circumnavigate Africa for the first time, to be specific. Personally, I harbor no illusions they'll be able to reach the Americas for at least a few more lifetimes. But in the long term, who knows where the butterflies will lead us?

 

[WolfBear]

All of the world at the time. Very few people could and did travel much outside their region.
Nicky seems pretty mild in terms of foreign conflicts. Communists and Socialists.

That's not necessarily true to the mass immigration to the Americas and also Australia/New Zealand/South Africa/Palestine that occurred back then. Not to mention the mass internal migration to places such as Central Asia and Manchuria or the Wild American (and Canadian) West.

Nicky got Russia into a war with Japan that was both unnecessary and resulted in Russia losing. Russia also lost southern Sakhalin as a result of that war, and when it finally got it back 40 years later, it was already full of Koreans lol!

 

[sillygoose]

That's not necessarily true to the mass immigration to the Americas and also Australia/New Zealand/South Africa/Palestine that occurred back then. Not to mention the mass internal migration to places such as Central Asia and Manchuria or the Wild American (and Canadian) West.

Nicky got Russia into a war with Japan that was both unnecessary and resulted in Russia losing. Russia also lost southern Sakhalin as a result of that war, and when it finally got it back 40 years later, it was already full of Koreans lol!

Immigration isn't exactly travel for leisure.

Japan attacked Russia. Certainly Russia was interested in expanding their gains in the region, but they didn't initiate hostilities.

 

[WolfBear]

Immigration isn't exactly travel for leisure.

Japan attacked Russia. Certainly Russia was interested in expanding their gains in the region, but they didn't initiate hostilities.

It isn't, but it does allow people to get a broader perspective of the world and to interact with a broader variety of people.

Fair point. Though Russia was unprepared when the Japanese attack came because it wasn't expecting it, IIRC.

 

[WolfBear]

@sillygoose Had Russia backed down over Serbia in 1914 but also opened its doors to an unlimited number of Serbian refugees afterwards, just how many of them do you think would have subsequently moved to Russia?

 

[sillygoose]

@sillygoose Had Russia backed down over Serbia in 1914 but also opened its doors to an unlimited number of Serbian refugees afterwards, just how many of them do you think would have subsequently moved to Russia?

No idea. Those who feared A-H retribution, but I have no idea how many that would be. TBH I'd be surprised if it were over 1% of the population, probably much less.

 

[WolfBear]

No idea. Those who feared A-H retribution, but I have no idea how many that would be. TBH I'd be surprised if it were over 1% of the population, probably much less.

What about ordinary Serbs who had nothing to fear from A-H but still liked Russia better?

 

[sillygoose]

What about ordinary Serbs who had nothing to fear from A-H but still liked Russia better?

Serbia was not a wealthy nation, so I doubt they'd have the funds to relocate or willingness to abandon their ancestral homes. Given how common blood feuds were in the country they don't strike me as a people who would run.

 

[stevep]

@sillygoose Had Russia backed down over Serbia in 1914 but also opened its doors to an unlimited number of Serbian refugees afterwards, just how many of them do you think would have subsequently moved to Russia?

The other question in that case is how long would the occupation last and how costly would it be for both sides? - Not to mention the time it would take Austria to conquer Serbia in the 1st place.

The empire needs more Slavs, especially Orthodox ones, like an additional hole in their head so if Russia did fail to support its ally I still don't see it ending that well for the Hapsburg's.

 

[WolfBear]

Serbia was not a wealthy nation, so I doubt they'd have the funds to relocate or willingness to abandon their ancestral homes. Given how common blood feuds were in the country they don't strike me as a people who would run.

Aren't blood feuds a pretty good reason to leave if you want to save your own life?

The other question in that case is how long would the occupation last and how costly would it be for both sides? - Not to mention the time it would take Austria to conquer Serbia in the 1st place.

The empire needs more Slavs, especially Orthodox ones, like an additional hole in their head so if Russia did fail to support its ally I still don't see it ending that well for the Hapsburg's.

Yeah, Franz Ferdinand said that by conquering Serbia, Austria-Hungary would get a bunch of goat pastures, plum trees, and rebellious killers:

Franz Ferdinand Opposes War with Serbia

null

www.mentalfloss.com

But one key figure still stood in the way: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the heir to the throne, who remained focused on Italy as Austria-Hungary’s real long-term enemy. Never shy about sharing his opinions, Franz Ferdinand shrugged off Berchtold’s warnings about the Serbian threat—“all such Serb horror stories leave me cold”—and made no secret of his opposition to war, predicting (correctly) that it would lead to war with Serbia’s patron Russia as well. In February 1913 he gave an unusual toast at a public event: “To peace! What would we get out of war with Serbia? We’d lose the lives of young men and we’d spend money better used elsewhere. And what would we gain, for heaven’s sake? Some plum trees and goat pastures full of droppings, and a bunch of rebellious killers. Long live restraint!”

Smart man! An Austro-Hungarian version of JFK or Joe Biden lol!

 

[sillygoose]

Aren't blood feuds a pretty good reason to leave if you want to save your own life?

When it is your culture and you know nothing different or that it is different elsewhere you probably don't worry about it as much. That and there was plenty of places to hide in the mountains if needed. After all the Scottish had that too and didn't leave willingly, the English had to ethnically cleanse them and deport them to the US.

Yeah, Franz Ferdinand said that by conquering Serbia, Austria-Hungary would get a bunch of goat pastures, plum trees, and rebellious killers:

Franz Ferdinand Opposes War with Serbia

null

www.mentalfloss.com

Yep, he did say that.

Smart man! An Austro-Hungarian version of JFK or Joe Biden lol!

Best emperor Austria never had. Also there is a reason the A-H army shot so many 'civilians' during the war. WW2 and WW1 in the region weren't actually that different vis-a-vis the partisan warfare problem. Just less external support in WW1.

 

[WolfBear]

When it is your culture and you know nothing different or that it is different elsewhere you probably don't worry about it as much. That and there was plenty of places to hide in the mountains if needed. After all the Scottish had that too and didn't leave willingly, the English had to ethnically cleanse them and deport them to the US.


Yep, he did say that.


Best emperor Austria never had. Also there is a reason the A-H army shot so many 'civilians' during the war. WW2 and WW1 in the region weren't actually that different vis-a-vis the partisan warfare problem. Just less external support in WW1.

AFAIK, a lot of Scots did voluntarily move to the US. Andrew Carnegie, for instance. And Donald Trump's own mother lol.

Yeah, FF was a smart man. Also somewhat similar to Afghan Amir Habibullah, whom I previously told you about and who resisted CP overtures to have Afghanistan enter WWI on the CP side until he was actually very sure that the CPs would win this war, a moment that never actually came. Habibullah, like FF, was ultimately assassinated.

Makes sense. Also, FWIW, I wouldn't be that huge of a fan of FF's policies due to him being a neo-absolutist, but he at least acknowledged that A-H needed serious reforms in order to continue properly functioning, which his uncle FJ did not, at least not after 1867. FF strikes me as being similar to an A-H version of Nicholas II if Nicholas II would have had more brains and also been more restrained.

 

[sillygoose]

AFAIK, a lot of Scots did voluntarily move to the US. Andrew Carnegie, for instance. And Donald Trump's own mother lol.

Yeah, FF was a smart man. Also somewhat similar to Afghan Amir Habibullah, whom I previously told you about and who resisted CP overtures to have Afghanistan enter WWI on the CP side until he was actually very sure that the CPs would win this war, a moment that never actually came. Habibullah, like FF, was ultimately assassinated.

Makes sense. Also, FWIW, I wouldn't be that huge of a fan of FF's policies due to him being a neo-absolutist, but he at least acknowledged that A-H needed serious reforms in order to continue properly functioning, which his uncle FJ did not, at least not after 1867. FF strikes me as being similar to an A-H version of Nicholas II if Nicholas II would have had more brains and also been more restrained.

Some did, there was also an ethnic cleansing of the Scots-Irish in the 1700s.

 

[WolfBear]

Some did, there was also an ethnic cleansing of the Scots-Irish in the 1700s.

With them being resettled in Appalachia? I suppose that this helps explain why exactly Appalachians are so tribal even nowadays. Scots are a pretty clannish people for Europeans. I wonder when they got rid of things such as blood feuds, things that other clannish people such as Iraqis and Afghans likely still practice even nowadays.

 

[WolfBear]

BTW, @sillygoose, off-topic, but is there any realistic way to have an alt-WWI break out sometime after 1914 where Russian troops are halted near the outskirts of Berlin? In other words, a 20th century German version of the Battle of the Marne?

 

[sillygoose]

BTW, @sillygoose, off-topic, but is there any realistic way to have an alt-WWI break out sometime after 1914 where Russian troops are halted near the outskirts of Berlin? In other words, a 20th century German version of the Battle of the Marne?

Not really given the logistics of that and the east wall of forts.

 

[sillygoose]

With them being resettled in Appalachia? I suppose that this helps explain why exactly Appalachians are so tribal even nowadays. Scots are a pretty clannish people for Europeans. I wonder when they got rid of things such as blood feuds, things that other clannish people such as Iraqis and Afghans likely still practice even nowadays.

Yes. I think the blood feud thing got excised from the genetics due to the big wars in the rest of europe.

 

[WolfBear]

Not really given the logistics of that and the east wall of forts.

Which forts did Germany have on/near its eastern borders? Is there a map of this anywhere online like there is of the pre-WWI French border forts?

And logistically, the move from Posen to the Oder should not be too difficult. Though the Russians are likely to be exhausted if they will actually reach the Oder, of course.

Yes. I think the blood feud thing got excised from the genetics due to the big wars in the rest of europe.

That, and/or Scots got a good taste of the Enlightenment while Afghans and Iraqis did not.

 

[sillygoose]

Which forts did Germany have on/near its eastern borders? Is there a map of this anywhere online like there is of the pre-WWI French border forts?

And logistically, the move from Posen to the Oder should not be too difficult. Though the Russians are likely to be exhausted if they will actually reach the Oder, of course.

That, and/or Scots got a good taste of the Enlightenment while Afghans and Iraqis did not.

I'm having trouble finding some that show them.
Here is a partial map (starred cities are forts like Thorn):