Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[WolfBear]

Except, unlike the other two, that last one never actually happened.

Otherwise, pretty interesting. Although, I don't suppose Russia could force newly conquered peoples to adopt Cyrillic—and consequently, the Russian language—even if going so far as to explicitly stamp out local tongues and writing systems wouldn't work?

Well, obviously, since 9/11 actually happened, Al Gore winning in 2004 in a TL where 9/11 did not occur could not have occurred in our TL! That said, though, Gore actually very seriously considered running again in 2004 before 9/11:

Al Gore on His Golden Years and Why He Thinks Obama Has Failed on Cli…

archived 28 Jan 2020 09:12:13 UTC

archive.ph

After Gore’s defeat in 2000, he thought hard about resuming his campaign for the presidency. He considered Bush a coward—unable to say no to the stronger personalities around him. “I thought very seriously about running again,” he tells me. “It’s hard for a lot of people to remember now what it was like just prior to September 11. Bush and Cheney were in trouble.” And Gore’s stature had only risen—he was the anti-Bush, curious and intelligent. Then came the attacks on the Towers, and everything changed. Politically, Bush was untouchable, and Gore’s view of his role in the American firmament made it imperative that he give Bush his full backing. “George W. Bush is my president,” Gore said in a speech, “and I will follow him, as will we all, in this time of crisis.”

But in another sense, 9/11 freed Gore to move past politics. Gore’s heart was not in a rematch. “I don’t think he wanted to run,” says Eskew. “There was not a systematic series of conversations about running. As a friend, I thought losing again would’ve been really devastating.”

I do think that Al Gore would have ran again in 2004 without 9/11, won the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination, especially if Hillary Clinton would have refused to run that year, and had at least 50% odds of beating Bush in 2004 in such a scenario.

And Yes, Russia could certainly force newly conquered peoples to adopt Cyrillic and the Russian language. In fact, the Russian language could harmoniously coexist with the local languages, and in fact, even the local languages can have their alphabet converted to Cyrillic as was the case in Soviet times, especially under Stalin's rule, where there was a huge effort to Cyrillify various national alphabets in the Soviet Union.

 

[Atarlost]

As for Kerry, he should win in 2008 due to the Great Recession. His lack of charisma could hurt him, but he could also get some racists to vote for him for economic reasons who were unwilling to vote for a black man in real life.

In 2008 he'd be up against McCain/Palin. The left probably forces a female or minority VP on him so they can feel good about being more tolerant than the Republicans. And I think it's far more likely they force a minority VP. If feminism trumped anti-white racism Hillary Clinton would have been the nominee in our timeline.

 

[WolfBear]

In 2008 he'd be up against McCain/Palin. The left probably forces a female or minority VP on him so they can feel good about being more tolerant than the Republicans. And I think it's far more likely they force a minority VP. If feminism trumped anti-white racism Hillary Clinton would have been the nominee in our timeline.

I'll tell you why exactly I supported Obama over Clinton in 2008: It's because I was fed up with 20 years of nonstop Bushes and Clintons in the White House. 28 years if Bush Sr.'s VP tenure is included. It had absolutely nothing to do with Hillary being a woman. I voted for her in 2016, though I voted for Bernie in the Democratic primaries that year since I liked his agenda better.

If Kerry gets a minority VP in 2008, it's almost certainly going to be Obama.

 

[Atarlost]

I'll tell you why exactly I supported Obama over Clinton in 2008: It's because I was fed up with 20 years of nonstop Bushes and Clintons in the White House. 28 years if Bush Sr.'s VP tenure is included. It had absolutely nothing to do with Hillary being a woman. I voted for her in 2016, though I voted for Bernie in the Democratic primaries that year since I liked his agenda better.

If Kerry gets a minority VP in 2008, it's almost certainly going to be Obama.

And Obama will have the same effect on economically liberal racists on the bottom of the ticket as on the top.

 

[WolfBear]

And Obama will have the same effect on economically liberal racists on the bottom of the ticket as on the top.

Was that true for transracial but nominally black Kamala as well?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

'AHC: Make Russian a global lingua franca comparable to English'

'AHC: Make Russian a global lingua franca comparable to English'

With either a surviving USSR, or a post-Soviet Russia that avoids the turbulent 1990s with a much different economic restructuring could result in the Russian language being a popular language used in the business world in the same way OTL Mandarin is widely used in the global economic activity.

 

[WolfBear]

With either a surviving USSR, or a post-Soviet Russia that avoids the turbulent 1990s with a much different economic restructuring could result in the Russian language being a popular language used in the business world in the same way OTL Mandarin is widely used in the global economic activity.

The demographic weight of such a Russia/surviving USSR will still be far smaller than it would have been without the extreme 20th century demographic devastation that this region endured, though.

 

[Atarlost]

Was that true for transracial but nominally black Kamala as well?

You're the one who brought them up. If they exist they won't vote for a Kerry/Obama ticket any more than an Obama/Biden ticket. If they don't exist they still won't vote for a Kerry/Obama ticket any more than an Obama/Biden ticket because they won't vote at all.

 

[WolfBear]

You're the one who brought them up. If they exist they won't vote for a Kerry/Obama ticket any more than an Obama/Biden ticket. If they don't exist they still won't vote for a Kerry/Obama ticket any more than an Obama/Biden ticket because they won't vote at all.

Well, I'm just saying that the bottom of the ticket only really matters if the top of the ticket will die (or if there is a Senate tie vote on a particular bill).

'AHC: Have Iran annex all of Afghanistan with a PoD of January 1, 1914 or later'

 

[WolfBear]

In case A they might not have either the strength to do so.

In case B they are still likely to cause a lot of resentment but events could mean there is relatively little choice. If you have literally 10's of millions on the move then short of using nukes you could have issues stopping them. Alternatively if the population continues to decline, possibly with say internal conflict worsening this, then the desire for labourers to maintain society could provide a foot in the door and it grows from there. A bit like the case in the US with the desire for cheap labour gradually moving to some version of the current situation in much of the Gulf states where expat workers often outnumber the natives, but in this case their probably not going to be effectively in a state of slavery.

Hey Steve, I've got a question for you: In a TL where Japan permanently keeps both South Korea and Taiwan, could it eventually receive a lot of Filipino immigration, with Filipinos in the Greater Japanese Empire being viewed as being comparable to Latin Americans here in the US? Or would Japan be too xenophobic for this even if it will still include a lot of Koreans and Taiwanese within its empire?

 

[Atarlost]

Well, I'm just saying that the bottom of the ticket only really matters if the top of the ticket will die (or if there is a Senate tie vote on a particular bill).

Symbolism matters a great deal. Kerry picking Obama would indicate that he was hostile to the Strom Thurmond faction to whatever extent it still existed.

 

[WolfBear]

Symbolism matters a great deal. Kerry picking Obama would indicate that he was hostile to the Strom Thurmond faction to whatever extent it still existed.

The Thurmond faction had already largely defected to the GOP by that point in time. The Thurmond faction was in the Deep South. Democrats were still more competitive in the Upper South back then than they are right now, though. For instance, Obama almost won Missouri in 2008.

 

[Atarlost]

The Thurmond faction had already largely defected to the GOP by that point in time. The Thurmond faction was in the Deep South. Democrats were still more competitive in the Upper South back then than they are right now, though. For instance, Obama almost won Missouri in 2008.

You're dodging the the issue again. Those are the racists you were postulating would vote for Kerry on economic grounds who didn't vote for Obama.

Anyone who would vote for eg. Kerry/Clinton but not Obama/Biden would also not vote for Kerry/Obama and I think we both think Kerry/Obama is more likely than Kerry/Clinton.

 

[WolfBear]

You're dodging the the issue again. Those are the racists you were postulating would vote for Kerry on economic grounds who didn't vote for Obama.

Anyone who would vote for eg. Kerry/Clinton but not Obama/Biden would also not vote for Kerry/Obama and I think we both think Kerry/Obama is more likely than Kerry/Clinton.

Fair enough, I suppose.

Anyway:

'AHC: Have Iran annex all of Afghanistan with a PoD of January 1, 1914 or later'

 

[Zyobot]

‘July 20th Bomb Plot Kills Adolf Hitler’.

 

[WolfBear]

‘July 20th Bomb Plot Kills Adolf Hitler’.

BBC - History - World Wars: Killing Hitler

Duncan Anderson explores one of the greatest 'what if's of World War Two- Hitler's assassination.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[WolfBear]

'AHC: Have Bavaria permanently remain separate from Germany just like Austria managed to do (with the brief exception of the Nazi era). If necessary, Bavaria could become a part of Austria in this TL.'

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

'AHC: Have Bavaria permanently remain separate from Germany just like Austria managed to do (with the brief exception of the Nazi era). If necessary, Bavaria could become a part of Austria in this TL.'

Wittlesbach dynasty becomes the ruling family of the Austrian Empire? Or alternatively, Bavaria becomes super South Germany that includes Austria as well.

 

[WolfBear]

Wittlesbach dynasty becomes the ruling family of the Austrian Empire? Or alternatively, Bavaria becomes super South Germany that includes Austria as well.

Why was Bavaria eager to join the German Empire in 1870-1871 in real life as opposed to remaining independent? It could have played off Prussia and Austria against each other while competing for favor with both of them, no?

 

[stevep]

Hey Steve, I've got a question for you: In a TL where Japan permanently keeps both South Korea and Taiwan, could it eventually receive a lot of Filipino immigration, with Filipinos in the Greater Japanese Empire being viewed as being comparable to Latin Americans here in the US? Or would Japan be too xenophobic for this even if it will still include a lot of Koreans and Taiwanese within its empire?

Gut feeling is that xenophobia would win out. A markedly more liberal Japan today is looking towards automation rather than immigrants to meet their increasing problem of a steeply aging population. It could be that with a different political and social system birth rates might not decline or that they could eventually accept Taiwanese or Korean settlers although OTL the treatment of the Koreans brought into Japan was abysmal.