Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

Bassoe

Well-known member
‘Right-Wing EU Analogue’. As in, a pan-European superstate that loudly celebrates European identity and upholds Western Civilization as the gold standard.

In other words, pretty much a traditionally conservative, deeply Christian reflection of the actual EU that a High Tory might approve of (at least in the social/cultural sense).
Either the standard nazi victory cliché or the result of massive breakthroughs in automation technologies OTL in the next few decades, so suddenly, the actual EU's leadership no longer benefits from an ever-increasing population, quite the reverse, it means more threat to them of revolution by unemployed-and-unemployable plebeians and they're desperately seizing on any available ideological justification for 'less people'.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Either the standard nazi victory cliché or the result of massive breakthroughs in automation technologies OTL in the next few decades, so suddenly, the actual EU's leadership no longer benefits from an ever-increasing population, quite the reverse, it means more threat to them of revolution by unemployed-and-unemployable plebeians and they're desperately seizing on any available ideological justification for 'less people'.

Dunno as much about the latter, but I wasn’t really thinking of the former. The Nazis may have been Eurocentric, but they were pretty damned set on shoving aside the “Christian values” aspect of things (even if they couldn’t kill the Church immediately).

Mostly, I was thinking of various European states joining together long before 1900, whether it starts as ties that evolve into something more over the centuries, or some global conflict that brings the once-competitive “civilized nations” of the continent together (among other options). However, I’m too tired to trace it back to a specific PoD right now, so I’ll be off to bed soon.

Thanks for the reply and good night.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
‘Right-Wing EU Analogue’. As in, a pan-European superstate that loudly celebrates European identity and upholds Western Civilization as the gold standard.

In other words, pretty much a traditionally conservative, deeply Christian reflection of the actual EU that a High Tory might approve of (at least in the social/cultural sense).
The Catholics deal with their corruption problem by burning the pedo priests (and gay ones who enabled them) at the stake in the 80s. This leads to a catholic resurgence and a unified leadership for anti-left resistance.

Eventually they discover the Germans are literally handing out children to pedos as state policy and declare a crusade against pedophiles. Germans balk and try to redirect rather than dealing with the problems, some catholic vigilantism and catholics in prison camps later and the figurative crusade becomes a literal one.
 

ATP

Well-known member
‘Right-Wing EU Analogue’. As in, a pan-European superstate that loudly celebrates European identity and upholds Western Civilization as the gold standard.

In other words, pretty much a traditionally conservative, deeply Christian reflection of the actual EU that a High Tory might approve of (at least in the social/cultural sense).

Interesting.You could do that if :
1.Prussia is taken down/they worshipped state,not God/
2.Monarchist take over.
Let say...after 1870 France become real monarchy again,help carlists win in Spain in 1878,Win in 1918 just like in OTL,but becouse of supporting polish monarchists Poland become real monarchy,too.
Then wait for 1931 when Stalin start genociding farmers and attack soviets.Made few states there/and bigger Poland/ ,gave Syberia to Japan.
Wait for Germany to do something stupid,invade and made Bawaria,Saxony and other kingdoms free again.Occupy Prussia till they pay for WW1.
Made catholic state in Belgium.
And you have your Christian UE from Dniepr to Atlantic.
 

Buba

A total creep
What if the 1920 intervention in Russia had overthrown the Communists?
Well, this would make today's world barely recognizeable :)
Such a non-comm Russia would have borders pretty much identical to OTL USSR.
There could be an independent Ukraine, though, but smaller than OTL Ukranian SSR. France would be against it.
The Caucasus is probably independent (three countries) and a big mess.
Mongolia does not go comm either.
No subversive communist parties. Probably no NSDAP - and even if there is one, it never grows to OTL size.
Maybe even fascism might be butterflied away too.
From c.1930 onward the changes to OTL go wild!
 
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stevep

Well-known member
‘Right-Wing EU Analogue’. As in, a pan-European superstate that loudly celebrates European identity and upholds Western Civilization as the gold standard.

In other words, pretty much a traditionally conservative, deeply Christian reflection of the actual EU that a High Tory might approve of (at least in the social/cultural sense).

It depends on the interpretation of western civilization but otherwise that's not far from what we have already. Apart from possibly not so committed to Christianity.
 

stevep

Well-known member
What if the 1920 intervention in Russia had overthrown the Communists?

Would have depended on by whom and how. A continued Japanese presence along much of the Pacific region could be a source of resentment for whatever Russia emerges. The US was refusing to have anything to do with an intervention because it saw no profit with it while Britain and France were exhausted and socially strained by the war and were largely content to let things develop. Plus dissent between the European powers, as happened with the Greek-Turkish war is likely to handicap any intervention.

Also having 'won' who do they try and point in charge? Some Romanov, a right wing general or some moderate democratic group? And having done that how far do and can they go in supporting them against opposing forces? Your got something like Afghanistan or Iraq but about two orders of magnitude greater with much less military capacity to support the new government.
 

stevep

Well-known member
The Catholics deal with their corruption problem by burning the pedo priests (and gay ones who enabled them) at the stake in the 80s. This leads to a catholic resurgence and a unified leadership for anti-left resistance.

Eventually they discover the Germans are literally handing out children to pedos as state policy and declare a crusade against pedophiles. Germans balk and try to redirect rather than dealing with the problems, some catholic vigilantism and catholics in prison camps later and the figurative crusade becomes a literal one.

So the church does a 180? Will they also burn all the members of the clergy who hid and supported the pedoes for decades [probably centuries]? After all the reason why they were protected was to protect the image of the church, which mattered more to the scum in charge than the reality.

Even for you this is a serious diversion from reality.
 

Buba

A total creep
A continued Japanese presence along much of the Pacific region could be a source of resentment for whatever Russia emerges.
In OTL the USA told Japan "all your Karafutos are belong Lussia".
I see no reason for this to change, so it is back to 1905 borders here.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
What if the 1920 intervention in Russia had overthrown the Communists?
Since this Allied intervention comes years after George V of Britain skipped his chance to take in Nicholas and his family between the February & October Revolutions, I don't see any way to avoid the Bolsheviks' massacre much of the House of Romanov - not just the aforementioned immediate imperial family, but also quite a few of their extended relatives too. That leaves a cousin of the Tsar, Grand Duke Cyril, as the next closest heir to the Russian throne - too bad he pulled a Philippe Egalite and publicly backed the Provisional Government at Nicholas' expense, then got rather friendly with the Mladorossi (who wanted a paradoxical synthesis of Tsarism and the Soviet structure). I don't think he'd be able to get Entente support for a monarchist restoration, and he's unlikely to going to command the undivided loyalty of Russian monarchists either.

The democrats seem to have been a pretty weak and disorganized bunch. Alexander Kerensky, the last leader of the Provisional Government, was an extremely weak leader who directly enabled the October Revolution in the first place by arming Bolshevik sympathizers to suppress Lavr Kornilov's probable coup attempt; after being overthrown he fled into exile and irrelevance. So I really doubt he's going to be leading a restored Russian Republic any time soon if the Reds go down in flames, and I can't think of any other Russian democratic figures who can do that in his stead - they seem to have been even more irrelevant as the situation spiraled out of hand. Even if imposed by the Entente, I think a restored Provisional Government would basically have no authority outside of Petrograd's environs, and be quite easy for some ambitious general or generals to overthrow the moment the Entente looks away.

So I think that leaves post-war Russia under a conservative military dictatorship or junta of 'national reconstruction' as the most probable outcome. Perhaps a Kolchak-Yudenich-Kornilov/Denikin (depending on whether Kornilov still gets killed in 1918) triumvirate, with other prominent White generals such as the more reform-minded Pyotr Wrangel becoming legitimized regional warlords as the 'military governors' of the various guberniyas & oblasts. Policy-wise I would guess that Kolchak's ideas would be pushed to the forefront by their Entente backers: a total reversal of Soviet industrial nationalization & land reform, restoration of Tsarist land policies, recognition of the Russian national debt, granting of economic concessions to foreign business and acceptance of at least some of the peripheral breakaway countries' independence. And of course, no more soviets of any sort.

I'd imagine the triumvirs and their nominal subordinates will jockey for power a fair bit in-between purging anyone deemed a Bolshevik sympathizer and trying to rebuild the country (or at least the parts of it they control) with foreign aid from the Entente nations. They might want to recover the newly independent countries like Ukraine and Georgia, but I really doubt they'll have the strength to do that for at least the entirety of the 1920s, probably the '30s too. If a monarchist general comes out on top, they could call a Zemsky Sobor (grand national assembly) to try to hand the imperial throne off to a more distant but agreeable Romanov relative than Grand Duke Cyril. Tsarist or not, I'd expect this Russia to harbor revanchist sentiments toward its many new neighbors down the road - IIRC the Whites were generally quite reluctant to acknowledge the loss of countries like Poland and Finland, so I can't imagine they'd tolerate the continued independence of Ukraine (for example, especially as it's considered one element of 'All the Russias') once they regain the ability to defeat & reincorporate these lost territories unless arm-twisted into it by the Entente.

One knock-on effect is that, without the Bolshevik boogeyman, the Nazis might well never gain the momentum to get elected & promptly bring down the Weimar Republic. So maybe the weak German democracy staggers on, a reminder of what Russia might've ended up with if the Entente had restored Kerensky, or else it's ended by a more conventional right-wing militarist coup instead. They might still have revanchist designs against their neighbors like the Russian Whites, but I doubt they'd want to conquer everything up to Arkhangelsk & Astrakhan or more generally start a WW2 on the same scale as ours.
 

ATP

Well-known member
It depends on the interpretation of western civilization but otherwise that's not far from what we have already. Apart from possibly not so committed to Christianity.
Western cyvilisation is Ancient Greek definition of beauty,Roman law and christian morality.
Could you see at least one of that in UE ? i could not.

Another road to right-wing UE - Chrystianitas never fall,there were no protestant,french,soviet,1968 and lgbt+52 revolutions.
We still have many independent kingdoms - but ruled by catholic Kings and supporting each other.
To get that - remove not only Luder,but also reneissance popes which behaviour made his revolution possible.
Doable,as long as we get jesuits about 1450,not 100 years later.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
'ASB Cold War: Roman Empire Vs. United Kingdom'.

Both empires have comparable technology and span the lands they had at their respective territorial peaks IOTL, minus certain overlapping regions. In other words, the Romans give up the British Isles, whereas the British lose Middle Eastern possessions once controlled by the Romans.

Glancing at ideological differences, my (intuitive) guess is that the British would be the leading light of classical liberalism and "Christian civilization", whereas the Romans would be polytheistic traditionalists who fear the wave of social changes their northern European rivals are spearheading. Economically, I imagine the UK being more commerce-oriented and supreme guarantor of worldwide free trade (Roman control over the Med notwithstanding), though I otherwise feel the two empires would be less at (economic) odds than the United States and Soviet Russia, for example.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
But Mammoths and mastodonts probably was hunted. Pity. Imagine Cortez facing Aztecs on mastodonts ?
I remember reading a short story in an Alternate History anthology which had this. Surviving ice age megafauna in north america, some of it domesticated by the aztecs. Now if I could just find the story again...
It might also happen the other way as well with some new world ones going the other way, which could cause chaos in whatever parts of the old world they reach and also make colonies in the new very unhealthy for newcomers.
Has anyone ever done a TL with this? A pandemic with similar immunity/infection ratios to that which the OTL european diseases had upon the europeans and native americans, but reversed, in addition to OTL's plagues?
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
I remember reading a short story in an Alternate History anthology which had this. Surviving ice age megafauna in north america, some of it domesticated by the aztecs. Now if I could just find the story again...
The megafauna were not really native to the regions the Aztecs lived in, it would have been one of the civilized tribes in the north America to domesticate them and then conquer their neighbors.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
'Swap The Fates Of The British And Dutch Empires'.

Bonus points for making the Dutch language a similar bonanza of mass-borrowing and hybridized vocabulary, which I still deem likely to happen anyway, given how they'd command comparable global reach and prestige ITTL.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Interesting.You could do that if :
1.Prussia is taken down/they worshipped state,not God/
2.Monarchist take over.
Let say...after 1870 France become real monarchy again,help carlists win in Spain in 1878,Win in 1918 just like in OTL,but becouse of supporting polish monarchists Poland become real monarchy,too.
Then wait for 1931 when Stalin start genociding farmers and attack soviets.Made few states there/and bigger Poland/ ,gave Syberia to Japan.
Wait for Germany to do something stupid,invade and made Bawaria,Saxony and other kingdoms free again.Occupy Prussia till they pay for WW1.
Made catholic state in Belgium.
And you have your Christian UE from Dniepr to Atlantic.

Apart from the timing being all over the place and a lot bearing no relationship to reality why do you want a 'Christian' Europe when your stated in the past you don't believe in Christianity??
I remember reading a short story in an Alternate History anthology which had this. Surviving ice age megafauna in north america, some of it domesticated by the aztecs. Now if I could just find the story again...

Has anyone ever done a TL with this? A pandemic with similar immunity/infection ratios to that which the OTL european diseases had upon the europeans and native americans, but reversed, in addition to OTL's plagues?

On the 2nd point probably somewhere but I'm not aware of it. The Americas are still likely to suffer more than the old world simply because the latter is much larger and have more variety of domesticated animals. However given that incomers would be making a difficult crossing of the Atlantic such a blow to colonial activity might well give at least some of the western cultures time to recover.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
'Swap The Fates Of The British And Dutch Empires'.

Bonus points for making the Dutch language a similar bonanza of mass-borrowing and hybridized vocabulary, which I still deem likely to happen anyway, given how they'd command comparable global reach and prestige ITTL.
The English Civil War ends in an incomplete and unstable Royalist victory, and the Stuarts must struggle & waste resources for a long time trying to impose a continental-styled absolute monarchy on their people. Perhaps Charles II openly converts to Catholicism earlier and/or James II holds on to pour more gas on the religious fires burning England up from within, as well. They intermarry heavily with the Bourbons and regularly invite French aid to reinforce their army & repress rebellions against their rule, reducing England to a de-facto French satellite over time and driving first religious dissidents like the Puritans, then political ones abroad by the tens or hundreds of thousands. 18th century England is thus still a relative backwater, suffering from a brain drain and dependent on France for its political survival and relevance, with a much more modest set of overseas colonies than IOTL.

Meanwhile the Dutch Republic avoids its Year of Disaster and the republican, de-centralist regime endures at the expense of the House of Orange. It soaks up many, if not most of the English emigrants, giving it an economic and intellectual boost when combined with Huguenots fleeing Louis XIV's repression in France, and with no Bank of England established to challenge the Netherlands' own banking mastery it replaces our England as the most consistent, commercially-minded and maritime-focused fixture of anti-French grand alliances in Europe. In wars with the French bloc, the Dutch inevitably poach of many of England's New World colonies as they had once done to the Portuguese back when the latter were in union with Spain, often with the enthusiastic support of the colonists themselves outside of adamantly Cavalier Virginia and Catholic-settled Maryland. The 18th century Netherlands stands out as pretty much the only non-absolutist regime left standing in Western Europe.

Of course, just because they aren't absolutists doesn't mean the government in The Hague doesn't ever think about centralizing more power into its own hands and trying to extract more from its new colonies than they care to give. Perhaps they might even push the envelope hard enough to find themselves staring down rebellions in New England and New Netherland, motivated not so much by memories of traditional English liberty (although that's almost certainly going to be a factor for the former at least) but by their belief that the regime back in the mother country has betrayed the concept of 'True Freedom'. The English and French might well aid these rebels however they can, despite the obvious bad blood, just to spite the Dutch vultures who have chipped away at their colonial empires for so long.

But no matter - even if they lose here, the Dutch Empire will still grow and grow, spreading across Africa from the Cape and across Asia from the East Indies, later retaking Taiwan from China in addition to securing a growing number of territorial concessions on the Chinese mainland. Eventually, they will become the world's largest empire and professed defenders of a constitutional, liberal order standing against the absolute monarchs and more radical types dominant across the rest of Europe (perhaps even reconciling with rebellious New Netherland) by the end of the 19th century...
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The English Civil War ends in an incomplete and unstable Royalist victory, and the Stuarts must struggle & waste resources for a long time trying to impose a continental-styled absolute monarchy on their people. Perhaps Charles II openly converts to Catholicism earlier and/or James II holds on to pour more gas on the religious fires burning England up from within, as well. They intermarry heavily with the Bourbons and regularly invite French aid to reinforce their army & repress rebellions against their rule, reducing England to a de-facto French satellite over time and driving first religious dissidents like the Puritans, then political ones abroad by the tens or hundreds of thousands. 18th century England is thus still a relative backwater, suffering from a brain drain and dependent on France for its political survival and relevance, with a much more modest set of overseas colonies than IOTL.

Meanwhile the Dutch Republic avoids its Year of Disaster and the republican, de-centralist regime endures at the expense of the House of Orange. It soaks up many, if not most of the English emigrants, giving it an economic and intellectual boost when combined with Huguenots fleeing Louis XIV's repression in France, and with no Bank of England established to challenge the Netherlands' own banking mastery it replaces our England as the most consistent, commercially-minded and maritime-focused fixture of anti-French grand alliances in Europe. In wars with the French bloc, the Dutch inevitably poach of many of England's New World colonies as they had once done to the Portuguese back when the latter were in union with Spain, often with the enthusiastic support of the colonists themselves outside of adamantly Cavalier Virginia and Catholic-settled Maryland. The 18th century Netherlands stands out as pretty much the only non-absolutist regime left standing in Western Europe.

Of course, just because they aren't absolutists doesn't mean the government in The Hague doesn't ever think about centralizing more power into its own hands and trying to extract more from its new colonies than they care to give. Perhaps they might even push the envelope hard enough to find themselves staring down rebellions in New England and New Netherland, motivated not so much by memories of traditional English liberty (although that's almost certainly going to be a factor for the former at least) but by their belief that the regime back in the mother country has betrayed the concept of 'True Freedom'. The English and French might well aid these rebels however they can, despite the obvious bad blood, just to spite the Dutch vultures who have chipped away at their colonial empires for so long.

But no matter - even if they lose here, the Dutch Empire will still grow and grow, spreading across Africa from the Cape and across Asia from the East Indies, later retaking Taiwan from China in addition to securing a growing number of territorial concessions on the Chinese mainland. Eventually, they will become the world's largest empire and professed defenders of a constitutional, liberal order standing against the absolute monarchs and more radical types dominant across the rest of Europe (perhaps even reconciling with rebellious New Netherland) by the end of the 19th century...

Thanks for the write-up, man.

I don't have many other comments to add right now, though I do wonder what a map of the Dutch Empire at its greatest territorial extent might look like? Surely, the fact that its fate emulates OTL Britain's will make it the greatest empire to walk the earth here, but spanning a quarter of the world and land on all inhabited continents is a damned hard feat to match--let alone surpass, if we're feeling particularly ambitious.

Netherlands Proper is also on the edge of the European mainland rather than a collection of islands off the coast, which makes it easier for future adversaries to march onto the Dutch doorstep. As such, I imagine the Dutch would do well to stanch or obviate the rise of hostile, next-door neighbors (looking at you, France and Holy Roman Empire). Maybe if the going gets tough, the Dutch will create a contingency plan(s) that draws all their colonies into the fray to ensure that its empire survives elsewhere, should the mainland be taken or suborned by beefy local powers?
 

TheRomanSlayer

Kayabangan, Dugo, at Dangal
Would a more powerful Netherlands also take Prussia’s place as the most militaristic state in Europe, considering that it has France and the Holy Roman Empire next to it? It might be feasible if this alt-Netherlands would capture the territories that border the Rhine River area, just for its coal deposits.
 

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