Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Horses actually started in the new world, and migrated to Asia the opposite direction at the same time that humans migrated to the new world. Later horses went extinct in the Americas.
I'm aware that early horses came from the Americas, but they went extinct in the Pleistocene. American horses, to my admittedly limited understanding, were rubbing shoulders with wooly mammoths and sabre-toothed cats when they went extinct, far too long ago to influence history and long enough that migrants could handily re-introduce them from Asia.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
'What PoDs Would Create An Unrecognizable World?'

King John doesn't sign the Magna Carter.

Parliament doesn't happen. Authority of the king remains (mostly) in tact. Ideas of democracy and socialism as we know it today become less prevalent than OTL. American Revolution probably doesn't happen as the rebels can't substantiate their propaganda (the colonies will likely become independent anyway due to the distance between them and England, but maybe they'll be ruled by a Duke or something). Socialism almost certainly doesn't happen as the nobles in France won't have any precedent to give them idea or substantiate their propaganda. Not sure what modern capitalistic societies would look like, though, as the industrial revolution is going to happen and affect the balance of power.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
King John doesn't sign the Magna Carter.

Parliament doesn't happen. Authority of the king remains (mostly) in tact. Ideas of democracy and socialism as we know it today become less prevalent than OTL. American Revolution probably doesn't happen as the rebels can't substantiate their propaganda (the colonies will likely become independent anyway due to the distance between them and England, but maybe they'll be ruled by a Duke or something). Socialism almost certainly doesn't happen as the nobles in France won't have any precedent to give them idea or substantiate their propaganda. Not sure what modern capitalistic societies would look like, though, as the industrial revolution is going to happen and affect the balance of power.
Steampunk Dictatorship?
 

TheRomanSlayer

Kayabangan, Dugo, at Dangal
Related to the Boxer Rebellion, but also the Qing Dynasty: What if the Eight-Nation Alliance helped restore the Guangxu Emperor on his throne?
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
In 1920, Thomas Edison announced work on a machine via which the spirits of the dead could communicate with the living. He succeeded. Nineteen years later, the technology had advanced sufficiently for the New York World's Fair to exhibit the world's first proper Séance Engine, an automaton designed to channel a ghost as its control mechanism, serving as a prosthetic device by means of which the ghost could interact with the physical world.

Normally, there is no afterlife*. The dead are dormant, not experiencing consciousness since their original death. Unless something in the mortal world wakes them up, in which case they can use the Séance Engine summoning them as a body**.

Now this leaves all kinds of interesting ideas to play with. Everyone who ever died or who knows they're eventually going to die and wants to be prepared is going to want a prosthetic body. Who makes them? How long until sweatshop owners come up with the idea of renting them? How does society work when nobody permanently dies, the closest you could come being for all the living to forget someone's existence therefore preventing anyone from wanting to summon them, or summoning them yourself and keeping their new mechanical body permanently imprisoned so they can't be summoned into a different one outside of your control, etc.

* Several religions claim Séance Engines remove all memories of the afterlife when they drag someone's soul back into the mortal world or that the things summoned up by Séance Engines aren't what they claim to be, etc.
** The initial prototype was basically just a telegraph. The ghost could send and receive rudimentary signals. Later, more sophisticated versions were more along the lines of mechanical bodies.
Well that's a good source for widespread chaos. Not only the religious issues you mention but a lot of groups are going to have field days talking to people they hold as heroes and leading examples. Which will only escalate when different ghosts come up with different versions of events. [Because of course no one said they couldn't lie, even ignoring when people actually believe different versions of different events].

Also its going to have potential for solving most murders, if you can successfully select who is summoned. Find out for instance what happened to Edward II, or Harold Godwinson or for the US in the Lizzie Borden case. ;) Again assuming that people tell the truth although its more likely here.

Another factor is do you want Shakespeare's latest new play, or to find out what some of the ancient Greek plays and stories actually were in detail? Not sure if you could give such machines sufficient dexterity that you could get a new Michelangelo or De Vinci say. Let alone trying to summon and discuss with assorted religious prophets and leaders or seeing what George Washington thinks of ~1939 USA.

Steve
Also the necromancy version of patent squatting. Since a ghost can only be summoned by one person at a time, if an early adopter of the technology nabbed a bunch of famous individuals, they'd remain un-summonable by anyone else, unless their current summoner was tracked down and the Séance Engines hosting them destroyed.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Horses actually started in the new world, and migrated to Asia the opposite direction at the same time that humans migrated to the new world. Later horses went extinct in the Americas.

And they could domesticate bisons,if they really try.But they need horses first.Personally,i do not blame extincion of horses on indians - if they do not manage to wipe out bisons,horses should survive,too.
But Mammoths and mastodonts probably was hunted.Pity.Imagine Cortez facing Aztecs on mastodonts ?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
King John doesn't sign the Magna Carter.
Wouldn't John most likely fall down a stairway onto some swords in that case? I'm under the impression the Magna Carta happened because he basically pissed off everybody and signing it was the only way he was going to hold onto a shred of power or even his life.

Playing with my Native Americans with livestock notion, kick it up a notch. The Pleistocene wiped out virtually all the larger life forms in the Americas. What if it went the other way and the New World was crawling with megafauna? Wooly Mammoth, Saber-toothed Cat, Megatherium, Mastodon, Paracetherium, Castoroides, Dire Wolves, Doedicurus and Glyptodon, Short-Faced Bear, and many more.

Some of it in this AU is domesticable, most of it isn't of course. With so many centuries separated their horses probably don't resemble Asian/Arabian horses anymore (The original American horse appears to be half-zebra) though the common ancestor will be apparent. But the big wildcard is what society will look like if the main domesticated animals are megafauna. On the flipside you've got beavers the size of grizzly bears and bears large enough that they kill and eat mastodons... along with actual mastodons so society also has to adapt to protect itself from that.

When Cortez rolls up on South America, he winds up meeting Inca Megatherium Cavalry.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Simplest I can think of: "The ancestors of the Native Americans brought cattle (and horses or other livestock if you want bonus points) with them to the new world."

Having an animal that can be used as a beast of burden would dramatically improve agriculture and industry and allow a "tech up" that simply wasn't possible for them because they couldn't make the jump from all-hand-labor to machines without the animal labor intermediary step, at least not in an available timeframe. When machinery became available the Indians teched themselves up remarkably fast under the circumstances.

Exposure to cowpox from cattle would give them a modest resistance to smallpox, enough not to lose 90% or more of their population the first time a European coughs in their general direction though it would still kill a lot of people.

The result would be unrecognizable to us today. It's possible the Americas would actually be a peer power by the time Europe got there, but more likely it would look a bit like Africa, not as technologically advanced as Europe but with enough population that it retains native culture and still has a noticeable supermajority Native American population into the modern day rather than them becoming a minority confined to reservations in their former lands.

Not just that having their own tamed animals would give some protection to diseases from the old world. It might also happen the other way as well with some new world ones going the other way, which could cause chaos in whatever parts of the old world they reach and also make colonies in the new very unhealthy for newcomers.

Of course the big problem is that this seems to need much earlier domestication of certain animals as the colonists who seem to have come across during the Ice Age seem to have been prior to any domestication of animals, let alone in the fairly remote parts of Siberia they came from.

Possibly a more likely alternative might be that Viking contact is longer before it dies out, possibly because of the Little Ice Age or some other factor. This might expose the natives to some old world disease and also enable them to get numbers of at least dogs, horses and cattle for instance. Not to mention some metalworking, the wheel and other such capacities.

Of course even then there are old world infections such as maleria and yellow fever that mainly come from tropical and sub-tropical areas that would be unlikely to arrive via such a route and are likely to ravage the Americas later. However they might stand a reasonable chance of having a culture that can resist European or other colonists markedly better.
 

stevep

Well-known member

That is generally thought of as coming from the new world, although I've seen some competing arguments. Which might simply have meant a more deadly variant came across. However it was only one disease while OTL the western hemisphere got hammered by multiple deadly infections, as well as incomers who had a huge technological and cultural advantage. As well as arguably social ones as well as much of meso-american religion was extremely bloody and negative.
 

ATP

Well-known member
That is generally thought of as coming from the new world, although I've seen some competing arguments. Which might simply have meant a more deadly variant came across. However it was only one disease while OTL the western hemisphere got hammered by multiple deadly infections, as well as incomers who had a huge technological and cultural advantage. As well as arguably social ones as well as much of meso-american religion was extremely bloody and negative.

Indeed.If empire fall after 200-1000 dudes invade it,even with big technological advantage,it means that something with those empires was wrong.
 

ATP

Well-known member
All the other tribes around the Aztecs, fully aware that Cortez intendent to enslave them, dicided that slavery was a price they were willing to pay to see the Aztecs brought down.
Yes.They were so nice people.I undarstandt,that somebody could be cunt,but if he is also idiot.....Aztecs robbed those tribes regularry - but not destroyed them.What they expected,when some invaders come ?
If you are cunt,then you must remember to destroy or at least enslave your victims,so they could not retaliate.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Yes.They were so nice people.I undarstandt,that somebody could be cunt,but if he is also idiot.....Aztecs robbed those tribes regularry - but not destroyed them.What they expected,when some invaders come ?
If you are cunt,then you must remember to destroy or at least enslave your victims,so they could not retaliate.

You need to understand what motivated the Aztecs and to a degree a number of other cultures in the region. Their religion was very dark and required large numbers of human sacrifices to appease the bloody gods of their parathion and keep the world safe. As such they needed weaker neighbours to supply such sacrifices as the alternative would have been regular plundering of their own people.
 

Buba

A total creep
Their religion was very dark and required large numbers of human sacrifices to appease the bloody gods of their parathion and keep the world safe.
Wasn't it also about ritualised cannibalism? With only temple-butchered long pig being kosher, and thus preventing random killings of fellow citizens for the pot?
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Wasn't it also about ritualised cannibalism? With only temple-butchered long pig being kosher, and thus preventing random killings of fellow citizens for the pot?

Yes.If they only wanted sacrifices,then they would not eat bodies of victims - but gods get only hearts and part of blood/rest was mixed with some grain and eaten/.
If i was Aztec god,i would be not happy with such division and cry every time seeing some Aztec eating yummy ham which could be eaten by me.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘Right-Wing EU Analogue’. As in, a pan-European superstate that loudly celebrates European identity and upholds Western Civilization as the gold standard.

In other words, pretty much a traditionally conservative, deeply Christian reflection of the actual EU that a High Tory might approve of (at least in the social/cultural sense).
 

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