Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

ATP

Well-known member
Very interesting, answering this question is totally over my head though, I'm afraid :(
My only thought is that 2014 Ukraine may had folded not in two years but two weeks.
This, I admit, is what I thought would happen in II.2022.

Well,i was giving them 2-4 months,but yeah.Thanks for Gierasimov and other thieves - without their stealing money for soviet forces,they really would be 2th world army.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
‘Avoid Post-2014 Wokeness In Media And Pop Culture’.
Occupy Wall Street corresponded with the start of the megacorps targeted by Occupy throwing money at wokeist propaganda to misdirect the left away from them, so your best bets would be to either avert Occupy entirely or have it succeed, split from and attempt to hijack the mainstream left in the same way as trumpist populism did to the neoconservative right.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Occupy Wall Street corresponded with the start of the megacorps targeted by Occupy throwing money at wokeist propaganda to misdirect the left away from them, so your best bets would be to either avert Occupy entirely or have it succeed, split from and attempt to hijack the mainstream left in the same way as trumpist populism did to the neoconservative right.


Not ruling that out, either, though really, I’d still say the roots of the Modern Left go much further back than just Occupy Wall Street.

Skallagrim, for instance, noted the “Long march through the institutions!” they’ve been on since the Fifties and Sixties, which — as you can probably tell — hasn’t softened up with time. It has, of course, “merged” with various corporate interests to form something of a “chimaera” along the way. But even without patronage from the megacorps, the underpinnings and infrastructure to facilitate Woke activism were still there, and still gnawing at Western culture for decades and decades before Occupy got started.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Not ruling that out, either, though really, I’d still say the roots of the Modern Left go much further back than just Occupy Wall Street.

Skallagrim, for instance, noted the “Long march through the institutions!” they’ve been on since the Fifties and Sixties, which — as you can probably tell — hasn’t softened up with time. It has, of course, “merged” with various corporate interests to form something of a “chimaera” along the way. But even without patronage from the megacorps, the underpinnings and infrastructure to facilitate Woke activism were still there, and still gnawing at Western culture for decades and decades before Occupy got started.

It was since 1939 and earlier,when commies started taking over from within.
And,when Marcuse run from germany to USA,he started his own version,becouse he was commie,but not soviet.

What we have now is mix of both.With soviets taken over by neocommies,who learned from their mistakes.

Soviet approach was take power and then made new culture - but it always mean mass graves and people teaching their children what is true.
That is why they failed - they manage to destroy part of old world,but never build new people,only opportunists.

Neosoviet manage to create entire class of people who belive in their shit,becouse they acted slowly and without massgraves.
Well,not counting unborn children and old dudes,but for modern people it is progress,not mass murder.
 

Buba

A total creep
‘William McKinley Never Assassinated’.
This saves USA from the first Roosevelt, doesn't it? And Wilson too, as Mister Testosterone is a relative nobody and can't split the GOP?
FDR does not make it big? Or was his career fully/in major part on his own merits?
Alt-Hist boards are spared "Roosevelt wins in 1912 and declares war on Evul! Willie II in 1914" threads.
 
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CastilloVerde

Active member
A bit late to respond, but better late than never, I suppose.
You know… you could probably make some pretty cool maps of this. I know you suggested two PODs culminating in the same result, but in either case, the ATL geography and ethnocultural composition would certainly be “foreign” to OTL eyes — which isn’t always a bad thing, mind you. :)
Completely agreed!
That said, what do you think happens to China? Obviously, it neighbors Central and South Asia both, so the opportunities for more “innocuous” cross-cultural exchange — and, of course, for border conflicts or wars of conquest — goes without saying. It may have historically prided itself on being the Middle Kingdom that keeps its hands clean of “icky barbarian foreigners”, but I’d say both the Mongol incursions and more “passive” exchange with its neighbors that’d inevitably happen over thousands of years suggests otherwise. You’re bound to get a good helping of that IATL, too, I think.
Regarding China, the two scenarios should be considered separatley:

1. the Indo-Hephthalite scenario: Frankly, I still expect much of China to proceed very similarly to OTL, at least until the (alt)Mongol conquests happen. That itself opens the proverbial can of worms. I don't expect the India of this ATL to impact much of China on a fundamental level.

We can reasonably expect a more forceful, or at least more energetic, Buddhist missionary activity into China thanks to the existence of a predominantly Buddhist realm to the west. The India-Central Asia region would be an excellent source for missionaries and Buddhist universities like OTL Nalanda to be a place to educate these missionaries. But, Buddhism was already present in China by at least the Han period and Buddhism itself became the predominant religion during the Tang period even after periods of persecution. What this ATL India could do is perhaps speed up the spread of Buddhism into China slightly.

So, I don't expect too much major change in China, especially early on. Perhaps stories like Journey to the West and travelling monks like Xuantang to the west would be more common?

It would only be the coming of the Mongols (or similar nomadic group) that would noticeably affect Chinese history at this point.


2. the successful Mughal scenario: This scenario would have much more effect upon China early on, albeit indirectly.

The premise is a more successful Mughal (or alt-Mughal) Empire. We can reasonably assume in this scenario that the emperor Aurangzeb's successors were much more competent in their rule and prevented the fracturing of the empire. Thus, these successors managed to handle both the increasing european influence (especially the British and French) and internal rebellions like the Maratha well. The result is not only a more intact realm, but a realm that is more cohesive and capable to deal with the foreign invasions.

This prevents the British from ever developing a massive empire in India. A change from OTL which would have major changes in world history. Indeed european colonies in India would simply be port cities like OTL Goa.

Because the British never conquer the Bengal, this means that Burma is spared from British involvement. Thus, we see the Konbaung dynasty (or similar ATL dynasty) moving forward with their ambitious plans at conquest, and the burmese were quite successful in that regard. We know in the 1760s Chinese forces of the Qianlong Emperor invaded Burma four times and were defeated. All the more interesting because the Burmese were engaged with the Siamese at the time. In my conversations with you and @Skallagrim elsewhere I suggested that Burma, in the absence of european colonialism, would have been the likely power to eventually become the hegemon of the Indochinese cultural sphere at the end of their uh... Warring States Period. This scenario would be a way to achieve that. In OTL the Burmese not only fought with Siam and China but also in OTL eastern Indian regions like Manipur. Unless the Mughals expand in this area, we can expect that much of this region would come under Burmese rule.

On to China. Now, no British India means the British do not have a place to get the large amounts of opium necessary to get into the Chinese market. There may still be opium smuggling into China, but it would be a lot less profitable for the British which makes it less likely for the British to go to war with China over it. If you prevent the opium wars, that does not prevent the fact that the Qing would decline, but this likely prevents the discrediting of traditional Chinese institutions decades later. If a figure like Cixi never comes to power, reforms in China would be much more possible. Western technology and some influence would still occur in this ATL even if western involvement in China was less pronounced. Conceivably, a new native Han traditional monarchy - now adopting some modern technology - could replace the Qing instead of a nationalist republic based on western ideas.

This would also have other effects on Asia. First, the lack of a British Raj would make French attempts to create a similar empire under the sun in Indochina much less likely. The result would be that Vietnam would remain independent, though still under Chinese influence as Vietnam was very much part of the Sinosphere like Korea. Because the Siamese fought with both Vietnam and Burma in progressively escalating conflicts in the 1700s-1800s, it's probable that Vietnam and Burma could ally out of convenience which would result in Siam as the eventual loser in these struggles.

I would expect Indonesia to be the battlefield pf european empires in this ATL instead. I don't think the Dutch would have much of the region to themselves in this ATL because the British and French especially would have more resources available to exploit the region if they were deprived of opportunities in India and Indochina. Think of a much larger Caribbean. A patchwork of islands belonging to various empires.

The Spanish in response invest more resources in defending the Philippines, but I expect some of the smaller southern islands like Sulu to come under British or French control.

No Opium Wars means that China is not humiliated by foreign powers. This could prevent the (alt)Meiji restoration in Japan because the Tokugawa court would not have China as a cautionary tale and these developments and not give the anti-Tokugawa daimyo a pretext for overthrowing the Tokugawa. Note that the Tokugawa had indeed been reforming the country and adopting some aspects of western technology even long before the Meiji restoration. This ATL would have more of this. Japan would still develop, but much less dramatically than OTL without the (alt)Meiji.

Combine this Japan with a stronger China and thus Korea remains firmly under China, like Vietnam.

No Opium wars also means that Russia does not have an opportunity to take Outer Manchuria (which occurred around 1860) and, since we established that Central Asia remains under Indian influence, Russian expansionist energies could well be directed into the direction of the declining Ottomans instead...

In summary, a more interesting world, I'd say.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
A bit late to respond, but better late than never, I suppose.

Completely agreed!

Regarding China, the two scenarios should be considered separatley:

1. the Indo-Hephthalite scenario: Frankly, I still expect much of China to proceed very similarly to OTL, at least until the (alt)Mongol conquests happen. That itself opens the proverbial can of worms. I don't expect the India of this ATL to impact much of China on a fundamental level.

We can reasonably expect a more forceful, or at least more energetic, Buddhist missionary activity into China thanks to the existence of a predominantly Buddhist realm to the west. The India-Central Asia region would be an excellent source for missionaries and Buddhist universities like OTL Nalanda to be a place to educate these missionaries. But, Buddhism was already present in China by at least the Han period and Buddhism itself became the predominant religion during the Tang period even after periods of persecution. What this ATL India could do is perhaps speed up the spread of Buddhism into China slightly.

So, I don't expect too much major change in China, especially early on. Perhaps stories like Journey to the West and travelling monks like Xuantang to the west would be more common?

It would only be the coming of the Mongols (or similar nomadic group) that would noticeably affect Chinese history at this point.


2. the successful Mughal scenario: This scenario would have much more effect upon China early on, albeit indirectly.

The premise is a more successful Mughal (or alt-Mughal) Empire. We can reasonably assume in this scenario that the emperor Aurangzeb's successors were much more competent in their rule and prevented the fracturing of the empire. Thus, these successors managed to handle both the increasing european influence (especially the British and French) and internal rebellions like the Maratha well. The result is not only a more intact realm, but a realm that is more cohesive and capable to deal with the foreign invasions.

This prevents the British from ever developing a massive empire in India. A change from OTL which would have major changes in world history. Indeed european colonies in India would simply be port cities like OTL Goa.

Because the British never conquer the Bengal, this means that Burma is spared from British involvement. Thus, we see the Konbaung dynasty (or similar ATL dynasty) moving forward with their ambitious plans at conquest, and the burmese were quite successful in that regard. We know in the 1760s Chinese forces of the Qianlong Emperor invaded Burma four times and were defeated. All the more interesting because the Burmese were engaged with the Siamese at the time. In my conversations with you and @Skallagrim elsewhere I suggested that Burma, in the absence of european colonialism, would have been the likely power to eventually become the hegemon of the Indochinese cultural sphere at the end of their uh... Warring States Period. This scenario would be a way to achieve that. In OTL the Burmese not only fought with Siam and China but also in OTL eastern Indian regions like Manipur. Unless the Mughals expand in this area, we can expect that much of this region would come under Burmese rule.

On to China. Now, no British India means the British do not have a place to get the large amounts of opium necessary to get into the Chinese market. There may still be opium smuggling into China, but it would be a lot less profitable for the British which makes it less likely for the British to go to war with China over it. If you prevent the opium wars, that does not prevent the fact that the Qing would decline, but this likely prevents the discrediting of traditional Chinese institutions decades later. If a figure like Cixi never comes to power, reforms in China would be much more possible. Western technology and some influence would still occur in this ATL even if western involvement in China was less pronounced. Conceivably, a new native Han traditional monarchy - now adopting some modern technology - could replace the Qing instead of a nationalist republic based on western ideas.

This would also have other effects on Asia. First, the lack of a British Raj would make French attempts to create a similar empire under the sun in Indochina much less likely. The result would be that Vietnam would remain independent, though still under Chinese influence as Vietnam was very much part of the Sinosphere like Korea. Because the Siamese fought with both Vietnam and Burma in progressively escalating conflicts in the 1700s-1800s, it's probable that Vietnam and Burma could ally out of convenience which would result in Siam as the eventual loser in these struggles.

I would expect Indonesia to be the battlefield pf european empires in this ATL instead. I don't think the Dutch would have much of the region to themselves in this ATL because the British and French especially would have more resources available to exploit the region if they were deprived of opportunities in India and Indochina. Think of a much larger Caribbean. A patchwork of islands belonging to various empires.

The Spanish in response invest more resources in defending the Philippines, but I expect some of the smaller southern islands like Sulu to come under British or French control.

No Opium Wars means that China is not humiliated by foreign powers. This could prevent the (alt)Meiji restoration in Japan because the Tokugawa court would not have China as a cautionary tale and these developments and not give the anti-Tokugawa daimyo a pretext for overthrowing the Tokugawa. Note that the Tokugawa had indeed been reforming the country and adopting some aspects of western technology even long before the Meiji restoration. This ATL would have more of this. Japan would still develop, but much less dramatically than OTL without the (alt)Meiji.

Combine this Japan with a stronger China and thus Korea remains firmly under China, like Vietnam.

No Opium wars also means that Russia does not have an opportunity to take Outer Manchuria (which occurred around 1860) and, since we established that Central Asia remains under Indian influence, Russian expansionist energies could well be directed into the direction of the declining Ottomans instead...

In summary, a more interesting world, I'd say.

Well, uh … quite an outline you’ve typed up there, friend.

Midnight where I’m at and am too tired to reply in-depth right now, @CastilloVerde, but am happy to see you back and with a fresh batch of excellent posts, as usual. Keep up the good work! (y)
 

stevep

Well-known member
A bit late to respond, but better late than never, I suppose.

Completely agreed!

Regarding China, the two scenarios should be considered separatley:

1. the Indo-Hephthalite scenario: Frankly, I still expect much of China to proceed very similarly to OTL, at least until the (alt)Mongol conquests happen. That itself opens the proverbial can of worms. I don't expect the India of this ATL to impact much of China on a fundamental level.

We can reasonably expect a more forceful, or at least more energetic, Buddhist missionary activity into China thanks to the existence of a predominantly Buddhist realm to the west. The India-Central Asia region would be an excellent source for missionaries and Buddhist universities like OTL Nalanda to be a place to educate these missionaries. But, Buddhism was already present in China by at least the Han period and Buddhism itself became the predominant religion during the Tang period even after periods of persecution. What this ATL India could do is perhaps speed up the spread of Buddhism into China slightly.

So, I don't expect too much major change in China, especially early on. Perhaps stories like Journey to the West and travelling monks like Xuantang to the west would be more common?

It would only be the coming of the Mongols (or similar nomadic group) that would noticeably affect Chinese history at this point.


2. the successful Mughal scenario: This scenario would have much more effect upon China early on, albeit indirectly.

The premise is a more successful Mughal (or alt-Mughal) Empire. We can reasonably assume in this scenario that the emperor Aurangzeb's successors were much more competent in their rule and prevented the fracturing of the empire. Thus, these successors managed to handle both the increasing european influence (especially the British and French) and internal rebellions like the Maratha well. The result is not only a more intact realm, but a realm that is more cohesive and capable to deal with the foreign invasions.

This prevents the British from ever developing a massive empire in India. A change from OTL which would have major changes in world history. Indeed european colonies in India would simply be port cities like OTL Goa.

Because the British never conquer the Bengal, this means that Burma is spared from British involvement. Thus, we see the Konbaung dynasty (or similar ATL dynasty) moving forward with their ambitious plans at conquest, and the burmese were quite successful in that regard. We know in the 1760s Chinese forces of the Qianlong Emperor invaded Burma four times and were defeated. All the more interesting because the Burmese were engaged with the Siamese at the time. In my conversations with you and @Skallagrim elsewhere I suggested that Burma, in the absence of european colonialism, would have been the likely power to eventually become the hegemon of the Indochinese cultural sphere at the end of their uh... Warring States Period. This scenario would be a way to achieve that. In OTL the Burmese not only fought with Siam and China but also in OTL eastern Indian regions like Manipur. Unless the Mughals expand in this area, we can expect that much of this region would come under Burmese rule.

On to China. Now, no British India means the British do not have a place to get the large amounts of opium necessary to get into the Chinese market. There may still be opium smuggling into China, but it would be a lot less profitable for the British which makes it less likely for the British to go to war with China over it. If you prevent the opium wars, that does not prevent the fact that the Qing would decline, but this likely prevents the discrediting of traditional Chinese institutions decades later. If a figure like Cixi never comes to power, reforms in China would be much more possible. Western technology and some influence would still occur in this ATL even if western involvement in China was less pronounced. Conceivably, a new native Han traditional monarchy - now adopting some modern technology - could replace the Qing instead of a nationalist republic based on western ideas.

This would also have other effects on Asia. First, the lack of a British Raj would make French attempts to create a similar empire under the sun in Indochina much less likely. The result would be that Vietnam would remain independent, though still under Chinese influence as Vietnam was very much part of the Sinosphere like Korea. Because the Siamese fought with both Vietnam and Burma in progressively escalating conflicts in the 1700s-1800s, it's probable that Vietnam and Burma could ally out of convenience which would result in Siam as the eventual loser in these struggles.

I would expect Indonesia to be the battlefield pf european empires in this ATL instead. I don't think the Dutch would have much of the region to themselves in this ATL because the British and French especially would have more resources available to exploit the region if they were deprived of opportunities in India and Indochina. Think of a much larger Caribbean. A patchwork of islands belonging to various empires.

The Spanish in response invest more resources in defending the Philippines, but I expect some of the smaller southern islands like Sulu to come under British or French control.

No Opium Wars means that China is not humiliated by foreign powers. This could prevent the (alt)Meiji restoration in Japan because the Tokugawa court would not have China as a cautionary tale and these developments and not give the anti-Tokugawa daimyo a pretext for overthrowing the Tokugawa. Note that the Tokugawa had indeed been reforming the country and adopting some aspects of western technology even long before the Meiji restoration. This ATL would have more of this. Japan would still develop, but much less dramatically than OTL without the (alt)Meiji.

Combine this Japan with a stronger China and thus Korea remains firmly under China, like Vietnam.

No Opium wars also means that Russia does not have an opportunity to take Outer Manchuria (which occurred around 1860) and, since we established that Central Asia remains under Indian influence, Russian expansionist energies could well be directed into the direction of the declining Ottomans instead...

In summary, a more interesting world, I'd say.

Interesting ideas but for a longer lasting and more successful Mughul empire you probably need Aurangzeb never managing to seize the throne and hence a more responsible emperor who doesn't wear down both the empire and the acceptance of a Muslim dynasty by the bulk of the population. If it stays more tolerant and interested in development rather than blind conquest then it could well keep European influences greatly reduced. Although the down side here could be that when it does weaken, which is bound to happen sooner or later you could see either a warring states period or the empire 'protected' but dominated by European powers as China was in the 19thC.

The British EIC had been largely driven out of the DEI region by ~1630 and it was after that that it switched its attention to India and later trade with China. Similarly while France had interests in India I'm not really aware of any attempts by it to intrude into Dutch controlled Indonesia OTL despite it being frequently at war with the Netherlands. As such not sure how likely it would be that either would seek to take over the Dutch colonies. Albeit that Britain did in the Napoleonic war period to remove them as bases for French privateers. As such could see an earlier conquest possibly by Britain - as it has the greater trading interests - or the region staying under Dutch control.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Easy to imagine - bigger Cambodia.Soviet would intervene and be welcome as liberators when 50% of population would arleady be killed.

I mean ... China is hugely populated, so they're far more capable of absorbing losses that'd cripple smaller nations.

No doubt he'd be reviled as Red Hitler in the West, but if the Khmer Rouge "only" managed to kill a quarter of their people in four years, then I doubt a Chinese Pol Pot ruling the most populated country on Earth could wipe out half of his own people before going down. At least, assuming he's not crazy enough to break out the nukes, which Pol Pot never had access to ... :oops:
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
"WI: Philip II of Spain born a female"

What if Philip II of Spain was born a female instead of male? Given that Charles V would have sons that died in infancy, his heir would be Ferdinand, who IOTL also succeeded him as Holy Roman Emperor. Though in this scenario, Ferdinand would also inherit the Spanish kingdom and its overseas colonies as well. How would a female equivalent of Philip II of Spain have an effect on the Holy Roman Empire overall? Given that Charles V would now have more daughters to wed off, Ferdinand as King of Spain would add more administrational burden on him to his role as Holy Roman Emperor.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
‘AHC: Worst Post-Maoist China Possible’.
The very moment Mao dies, a fairly large asteroid impact hits China, killing >90% of the population either by the immediate impact, or within the following 48 hours. The remaining <10% gets a more cruel, drawn-out death.

The rest of the world is going to be in ruins, too, obviously. Also, the Western and Soviet militaries mistake the impact for the initiation of nuclear war by the other side, and launch every nuke they have at each other. This means the post-impact hellscape is also irradiated to a massive degree, and the impact winter is compounded by a nuclear winter setting in. China is hit by both sides (the USA targeted them anyway, the Soviets mistakenly believe that the Mao has initiated some kind of death man's switch and has turned on the Soviets).

In the aftermath, all basic amenities are gone, most water sources are contaminated, and most food is irradiated. Starvation sets in across the globe, even though most of humanity is already dead. Plagues of all sorts afflict the survivors. Only in very few places does something vaguely resembling civilisation prevail. All but those who are optimistic to the point of delusion soon understand that with decades (at least!) of impact winter ahead, there will be no new harvests for at least twenty years. What's left of civilisation is going to die, and mankind -- ultimately to be numbered in in the hundred thousands across the globe, before we get past the nadir -- will be cast back to the existence of the hunter-gatherer.... in those places where life is still possible.

China is not one of those place. For the next few centuries, nobody will be able to live there. It is the desert of choking ash and invisible death.
 

stevep

Well-known member
"WI: Philip II of Spain born a female"

What if Philip II of Spain was born a female instead of male? Given that Charles V would have sons that died in infancy, his heir would be Ferdinand, who IOTL also succeeded him as Holy Roman Emperor. Though in this scenario, Ferdinand would also inherit the Spanish kingdom and its overseas colonies as well. How would a female equivalent of Philip II of Spain have an effect on the Holy Roman Empire overall? Given that Charles V would now have more daughters to wed off, Ferdinand as King of Spain would add more administrational burden on him to his role as Holy Roman Emperor.

True a long while since I read it but believe that Charles V deliberately split his empire because he decided that it was too large for a single ruler to manage so lacking OTL Philip he might find another member of the family to take over the Spanish side of the firm.

Depending on the character, if he wasn't the idiot that Philip was possibly the revolt in the Netherlands is avoided? Also if you do that or possibly the Netherlands ends up in the German half of the empire Spain doesn't exhaust itself fighting to crush opposition there?
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The very moment Mao dies, a fairly large asteroid impact hits China, killing >90% of the population either by the immediate impact, or within the following 48 hours. The remaining <10% gets a more cruel, drawn-out death.

The rest of the world is going to be in ruins, too, obviously. Also, the Western and Soviet militaries mistake the impact for the initiation of nuclear war by the other side, and launch every nuke they have at each other. This means the post-impact hellscape is also irradiated to a massive degree, and the impact winter is compounded by a nuclear winter setting in. China is hit by both sides (the USA targeted them anyway, the Soviets mistakenly believe that the Mao has initiated some kind of death man's switch and has turned on the Soviets).

In the aftermath, all basic amenities are gone, most water sources are contaminated, and most food is irradiated. Starvation sets in across the globe, even though most of humanity is already dead. Plagues of all sorts afflict the survivors. Only in very few places does something vaguely resembling civilisation prevail. All but those who are optimistic to the point of delusion soon understand that with decades (at least!) of impact winter ahead, there will be no new harvests for at least twenty years. What's left of civilisation is going to die, and mankind -- ultimately to be numbered in in the hundred thousands across the globe, before we get past the nadir -- will be cast back to the existence of the hunter-gatherer.... in those places where life is still possible.

China is not one of those place. For the next few centuries, nobody will be able to live there. It is the desert of choking ash and invisible death.

"Holy mass-death by giant impact, Batman!" :p :p :p

No, but seriously, methinks you took my POD a bit too literally. Get it was a somewhat jocular answerl, though really, I meant more that after Mao croaks, he gets the worst possible successor any Red despot could've asked for. Beware spoilers if you haven't read Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72, but wild shark-jumping aside: The "Years of the Skull" entry (here) describes what I'm looking for quite vividly — if also exceedingly nightmarishly, which is kinda' the point of my question.
 

CastilloVerde

Active member
‘AHC: Worst Post-Maoist China Possible’.
I meant more that after Mao croaks, he gets the worst possible successor anyone could've ever asked for.
The easiest way to achieve this would be that the Maoist Gang of Four (interestingly led by Mao's wife/widow Jiang Qing in OTL) takes power after Mao's death.

The Gang of Four would prevent Hua Guofeng's coup and move to sideline Deng Xiaoping, thus preventing the Deng-era reforms from ever occurring and the policies of the Cultural Revolution would continue instead. 😮
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The easiest way to achieve this would be that the Maoist Gang of Four (interestingly led by Mao's wife/widow Jiang Qing in OTL) takes power after Mao's death.

The Gang of Four would prevent Hua Guofeng's coup and move to sideline Deng Xiaoping, thus preventing the Deng-era reforms from ever occurring and the policies of the Cultural Revolution would continue instead. 😮

Had thought of the Gang of Four taking power before, yes — especially since Madame Mao strikes me as particularly extreme, even by the standards of most of Mao's retinue.

That said, it'd take a lot to reach "Holy continent-spanning Khmer Rouge, Batman!" levels of horrible, which is pretty much what that entry I linked to depicts. Granted, it was less of a Cultural Revolution in perpetuity or ideologically minded Super Great Leap Forward ... and more Mao's successor being a screechy, drug-addled maniac whose sadism and paranoid bloodletting turned China into a gigantic killing field that doubled as the world's biggest opium factory. All in all, really over-the-top and more than enough to make him Red Hitler in the eyes of the West, though considering how the author turns the US into a Tea Party hellscape for no apparent reason, it's far from the most implausible turn of events I've seen. :confused:
 

CastilloVerde

Active member
Had thought of the Gang of Four taking power before, yes — especially since Madame Mao strikes me as particularly extreme, even by the standards of most of Mao's retinue.

That said, it'd take a lot to reach "Holy continent-spanning Khmer Rouge, Batman!" levels of horrible, which is pretty much what that entry I linked to depicts. Granted, it was less of a Cultural Revolution in perpetuity or ideologically minded Super Great Leap Forward ... and more Mao's successor being a screechy, drug-addled maniac whose sadism and paranoid bloodletting turned China into a gigantic killing field that doubled as the world's biggest opium factory. All in all, really over-the-top and more than enough to make him Red Hitler in the eyes of the West, though considering how the author turns the US into a Tea Party hellscape for no apparent reason, it's far from the most implausible turn of events I've seen. :confused:
Agreed.

Hmm... I suppose you would have to guide the scenario to reach the "Super Khmer Chinese Rouge" scenario.

Let's have Hua Guofeng attempt the arrest against the Gang of Four and fail. Instead, Madame Mao and her cronies take power and, feeling understandably paranoid, conducts a massive purge of the government in reponse. Increasingly radical Pro-Maoist loyalists are brought in to replace the purged officials.

This would take some time, of course, and would probably have anti-Maoist factions (maybe led by Deng or other OTL reformers) opposing the regime and based in strongholds around the country. Plausibly there could be a "minor" intra-communist civil war with these anti-Maoists functioning as a second warlord era.

This would have an effect on Madame Mao and her cronies, as they would feel that they are surrounded by enemies and defeating them may take time. Let's assume they are somehow victorious after years of fighting and now have an army of Maoist Red Guards (remember the Cultural Revolution is still on-going!) at their disposal. Madame Mao calculates and determines the next order of business is finishing the Chinese Civil War. Thus, Taiwan is invaded and goes... terribly.

Now, international intervention against the neo-Maoist regime occurs, and seeing that her options are increasingly desperate, she decides to launch nuclear weapons wherever possible to end it.

The end. 😮
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Star Wars Bombs At The Box Office’.

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