AHC: design an ideal WW2 division with hindsight

sillygoose

Well-known member
Stealing a concept from alternate history discussion forum.

Alternate History Challenge: with hindsight design an ideal WW2 division with 1939 technology. If you want to create a technologically possible weapon or equipment (for example no transistor electronics) that didn't exist at the time feel free to.
 
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Buba

A total creep
I'm guessing that you have an Infantry Division in mind - so please be slightly more specific :)

Also - what theatre of operations?
For the North European Plain I'd design different than for North African/Middle Eastern desert ...

HEAT, APDS, recoiless, rockets - all in experimental or even trial stage - hence possible?

Sadly, I expect to several pages of dudes pushing their favourite pistol :( - while handguns are as relevant as bayonets.
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
I'm guessing that you have an Infantry Division in mind - so please be slightly more specific :)
You are correct, but I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas before I threw my ideas out there.

I'd say the basic triangular structure is fine, but I'd organize things differently at the lower levels. Instead of regiments I'd do brigades with attached fire support elements, similar to modern structures. So a brigade with three infantry battalions, but supported by a rocket artillery battalion, ideally ~82mm Soviet style rockets in a towed launcher rather than SP; due to the short range and inaccuracy having them at lower levels would make their use easier. I'd also have a Soviet style 150mm breach loaded mortar battalion to give it the ability to smash up any field works it had to deal with. For the brigade I'd avoid infantry guns and standard AT guns and go with a smoothbore mortar based system; the high-low pressure system of the PAW didn't exist yet, but having an 81mm mortar shell based HEAT round or conventional one fired with a conventional shell or heavier charge mortar configuration should be perfectly doable especially with a bored out 75mm field gun like the French 75. It would do double duty as an AT gun and infantry artillery weapon; a battalion of those at the brigade level would be good. At the battalion level I'd have 4x 105mm mortars drop fired, but with a barrel around the length of the Nebelwerfer 40 for longer range and accuracy.

I'd push the 81mm mortars down to the company level, x2 per company, same with the HMGs (also 2x per). I'd have either a 60mm platoon mortar or 50mm squad mortars. Also 2x MMGs per platoon. No MGs at the squad level, too heavy to lug around and keep up. If possible something like the Pedersen rifle in 6.5mm and a box magazine with select fire capability. Since HEAT and recoilless rifles were a thing a panzerfaust analogue would be best and issued down to the squad level.
For the division artillery the existing 105-150/55mm paradigm would be acceptable, but I'd like something more like a L45 120-130mm piece for longer range abilities and counterbattery fire, though that might be better as a corps level weapon.

I'd supplement the division artillery with a battalion of 200-240mm L24 mortars like the later Soviet system.

Also - what theatre of operations?
For the North European Plain I'd design different than for North African/Middle Eastern desert ...
Fair point, how about for whatever theater you want.

HEAT, APDS, recoiless, rockets - all in experimental or even trial stage - hence possible?
APDS didn't exist in 1939 AFAIK, but HEAT did as did recoilless weapons and rockets.

Sadly, I expect to several pages of dudes pushing their favourite pistol :( - while handguns are as relevant as bayonets.
At this point I'd take that, since you're the only one who's responded :(
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
The way I see it, the key improvement you can make in 1939 is reversing the fact that while they did recognize the potential of tanks, the United States was extremely miserly about military spending in the inter-war years and did not want to fund any radical force restructuring which would require building a lot of new equipment.

With a modern hindsight-user in charge and the trusty Plot Genies providing political leverage, you can build a modern-style combined arms force armed with "bleeding edge" 1939 tech that will be directly effective into early WWII, and with foreknowledge is better placed to be upgraded in place. So eliminate the internal politics that led to the artillery branch tank destroyers and infantry branch "combat cars", and start aggressively evolving medium tanks into proto-MBTs while also introducing the entire concept of APCs/IFVs.

1939 tech means you can start out with a "hindsight improved" version of the M2 Light and M2 Medium tanks which have been redesigned with the lowest possible profile, the largest possible turret ring, and springboard off of the British Horstmann design of 1935 to already have horizontal volute suspension instead of vertical volute. At this point in history, chassis improvements matter more than any immediate upgunning, because you don't actually need a bigger gun or heavier armor yet, but giving the core design an expanded capacity to accommodate future upgunning and uparmoring will pay off in spades, especially since pretty much all subsequent American tanks built off of the M2 Light/Medium pattern. The foundation built here enables us to later on skip the M3 Lee entirely and then create a far superior counterpart of the M4 Sherman with a modern MBT style low profile, and we can further pave the way for that by insisting on the development of a "future standard" 76mm anti-tank gun based on the 3" anti-aircraft guns which already exist in the pre-war era.

For the infantry half of the combined-arms force, we're stepping on Douglas MacArthur and pushing through a "proto assault rifle" development of the M1 Garand, retaining the original .276 Pedersen round and going for a lightweight skeletonized frame, shorter barrel and detachable box magazines from the start. Time and resources may not permit development of a "proper" squad machine gun here, but an upgraded BAR in the same caliber should suffice, with the easy but significant upgrade of twenty-round magazines. The 1911 can stay because it's the 1911, and submachine guns really don't matter that much with proto-ARs and matching SAWs in play. We somewhat regretfully ax the half-tracks, and get them mounted up in full-tracked APCs based on a suitable sized derivative of our M2 Light/Medium chassis.

On the artillery end -- bigger and more mobile are the words of the day. Historically, the U.S. didn't have a 155mm self-propelled gun during WWII; they designed one on a stretched M5 Stuart chassis, but it was too late. The 155mm cannon it used exists in a towed variant by the middle of 1941, but there's nothing about it that can't be done a decade earlier. The historic Artillery Branch wasted the entire 1930s dicking around with a new carriage for the older M1918 155mm and then realized in 1939 that they'd built a shiny new carriage for an obsolete howitzer, so they threw it all out and developed a new howitzer on another new carriage; on the bright side, the M114 155mm is an excellent medium howitzer which ultimately served into Vietnam. We can get that M114 developed sooner and make a self-propelled version on our improved M2 Light/Medium chassis family, giving our new mechanized division the best mobile artillery in the world.

Somewhat bizarrely, the United States also made a second 155mm gun, the bulkier and slower-firing but longer range M2 "Long Tom", which gained its own (also post-war) self-propelled version on an M4 Sherman chassis. That's getting axed on the basis that streamlining and expanding production of a single 'universal' 155mm gun is more important, and that the mobility of our new self-propelled chassis more than compensates for the lesser range.

For our light self-propelled gun, we're just going to steal the absolutely superb British 25-pounder gun-howitzer, throw it on our M2 Light chassis, and call it a day. We'll also steal the British artillery control system because it's amazing, and will be even more amazing with our "radios, radios everywhere!" doctrine.
 

Buba

A total creep
Somewhat bizarrely, the United States also made a second 155mm gun, the bulkier and slower-firing but longer range M2 "Long Tom"
Nothing bizarre about having a 3,5 ton weapon for shooting up to 12km, and another a 12 ton monster for shooting up to 18km.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
The foundation built here enables us to later on skip the M3 Lee entirely and then create a far superior counterpart of the M4 Sherman with a modern MBT style low profile, and we can further pave the way for that by insisting on the development of a "future standard" 76mm anti-tank gun based on the 3" anti-aircraft guns which already exist in the pre-war era.

Nothing bizarre about having a 3,5 ton weapon for shooting up to 12km, and another a 12 ton monster for shooting up to 18km.
See the mess the Germans made:
Smaller caliber, but even heavier.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade

Sure, but that's not in 1939. The big change you can make is altering the "base" chassis from which everything else evolves to set the foundation as being the lowest possible profile, the largest possible turret ring, and an overbuilt HVSS suspension to handle increased weight. Whereas historically they didn't really appreciate the advantages of a low-slung tank and built the superstructure up quite a bit to make room for all those machine gun sponsons.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Sure, but that's not in 1939. The big change you can make is altering the "base" chassis from which everything else evolves to set the foundation as being the lowest possible profile, the largest possible turret ring, and an overbuilt HVSS suspension to handle increased weight. Whereas historically they didn't really appreciate the advantages of a low-slung tank and built the superstructure up quite a bit to make room for all those machine gun sponsons.
Sure, I'm just pointing out that is exactly what you were asking for. The big difference was simply moving the front drive to the rear, which substantially lowers chassis height. We can of course debate whether the technology for that existed at the time in the US for this sort of design, but without that you're really not going to be able to lower height significantly. There is a reason the Soviets went with that sort of design in the interwar period; it also lowered weight and made it easier to construct.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Sure, I'm just pointing out that is exactly what you were asking for. The big difference was simply moving the front drive to the rear, which substantially lowers chassis height. We can of course debate whether the technology for that existed at the time in the US for this sort of design, but without that you're really not going to be able to lower height significantly. There is a reason the Soviets went with that sort of design in the interwar period; it also lowered weight and made it easier to construct.

You can reduce the profile significantly with a shorter superstructure that lacks those oversized MG sponsons. Not nearly *as* low as going with the rear transmission, true, but still lower. The large turret ring is the big important piece, as that doesn't *seem* important early on, but becomes vital for later upgrades.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Kinda-sorta. The combat rigged, ready-to-fire Kanone 18 is actually lighter than the Long Tom; the difference is it had to be remounted on a completely different carriage for transport. And it does fire even further than the vaunted Long Tom.
Might not be, assuming Wikipedia is correct:
MassTravel: 13,880 kg (30,600 lb)
Listed weight is travel weight, not combat weight. That is supposed considerably lower:
Combat Weight:26896 lb
Lbs converted to Kg is: 12199.82
So the Long Tom was slightly ligther.

MassCombat: 12,460 kg
(27,469 lbs)
Travel: 18,600 kg
(41,006 lbs)
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
Sadly, I expect to several pages of dudes pushing their favourite pistol :( - while handguns are as relevant as bayonets.
Yes, but bayonets are more relevant than you seem to think. Sometimes you really need to take a certain spot of ground. Sometimes the Japanese bayonet charge you and being able to defend yourself is kind of important. The bayonet charge still hasn't entirely gone away. You rarely need to fix bayonets in combat, but when you do you really need them. Just like officers rarely actually need to actually use their pistols for anything but waving, but when they do they really need them. They're also useful at an individual scale for guards. The distance at which a gun won't reliably stop a partisan with knife or a POW with an improvised weapon is longer than the distance at which a spear won't reliably stop them and the psychological factor may mean some prison breaks or saboteurs are dissuaded entirely.

Also, you really need to issue a blade for cutting brush anyways for some theaters and you may as well give it a socket for a bayonet lug.

I haven't done specific research, but there're probably good, bad, and arguable bayonets. And you sure as hell won't catch me not bothering to issue something.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Yes, but bayonets are more relevant than you seem to think. Sometimes you really need to take a certain spot of ground. Sometimes the Japanese bayonet charge you and being able to defend yourself is kind of important. The bayonet charge still hasn't entirely gone away. You rarely need to fix bayonets in combat, but when you do you really need them. Just like officers rarely actually need to actually use their pistols for anything but waving, but when they do they really need them. They're also useful at an individual scale for guards. The distance at which a gun won't reliably stop a partisan with knife or a POW with an improvised weapon is longer than the distance at which a spear won't reliably stop them and the psychological factor may mean some prison breaks or saboteurs are dissuaded entirely.

Also, you really need to issue a blade for cutting brush anyways for some theaters and you may as well give it a socket for a bayonet lug.

I haven't done specific research, but there're probably good, bad, and arguable bayonets. And you sure as hell won't catch me not bothering to issue something.
Knife-gun when?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
For the infantry half of the combined-arms force, we're stepping on Douglas MacArthur and pushing through a "proto assault rifle" development of the M1 Garand, retaining the original .276 Pedersen round and going for a lightweight skeletonized frame, shorter barrel and detachable box magazines from the start. Time and resources may not permit development of a "proper" squad machine gun here, but an upgraded BAR in the same caliber should suffice, with the easy but significant upgrade of twenty-round magazines. The 1911 can stay because it's the 1911, and submachine guns really don't matter that much with proto-ARs and matching SAWs in play. We somewhat regretfully ax the half-tracks, and get them mounted up in full-tracked APCs based on a suitable sized derivative of our M2 Light/Medium chassis.
I largely agree up to the BAR part. A select fire, box magazine Garand in .276 would replace the need for a BAR, especially as the heat build up of the .276 Pedersen cartridge was something like half that of the .30-06.
Then we can haz a tank garand that is practical, get rid of the M1 carbine, probably shit-can the 1911 even more and avoid the various SMGs. Honestly I'd even see the value of a belt fed .276 Pedersen MMG. Though if you want a truly dedicated auto-rifle why not the Johnson LMG?


A belt fed variant should be very doable. Using the much less powerful .276 cartridge should make it a viable weapon. Granted this is not a 1939 design, but something to shoot for in 1941.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
I largely agree up to the BAR part. A select fire, box magazine Garand in .276 would replace the need for a BAR, especially as the heat build up of the .276 Pedersen cartridge was something like half that of the .30-06.

The Garand rifle platform is simply too light to support full auto fire; we learned that the hard way with the M14. While the Pedersen is lighter and less recoiling, it's still far better suited to semiautomatic fire, while the heavier BAR takes the SAW role. I can see the Johnson LMG perhaps scooping the revised BAR for that SAW contract, though.
 

Buba

A total creep
Yes, but bayonets are more relevant than you seem to think.
Did not come across well :(
Bayonets and pistols do have their uses, but in threads like this you invariably get fanbois of pistol and/or pistol cartridge X seeing them as war winners.

Back on topic :)
Infantry Regiment with some integral non infantry stuff and even more stuff attached as needed, or Brigade Group - no difference in my book.

Mind you, I have tendencies for shit-eating penny pinching :)

North European Plain.
IMO the 1st Wave German Inf Div of 1939/41 is close to the ideal. I.e. triangular, 3 light +1 medium arty battalion, sundries like Engineers, AA, Recce etc.;


My changes:
- if possible, motorise further
-- get rid of all motorcycle+sidecar combinations, replacing them with Jeep equivalents
-- Divisional Recce Battalion - a company or two of Daimler Dingo Scout cars +1 Rifle Company (reinforced) in Jeeps. Maybe a strong platoon of the Sdkfz. 222 cars.

- field artillery:
-- three battalions with 36-54 howitzers of around 10cm calibre, plus 12 c.15cm weapons. But I'm torn between the heavier gun being a howitzer of 3,5-4 tons, or gun-howitzer of 6-7 tons like the 15cm sFH. The British approach - 72x88mm howitzers +16 140mm (as good as permanently attached from AGRA) - is actually not different. I think I'd go with the lighter weapon (like the US Army did).

-- maybe a rocket artillery battalion -12 launchers - as suggested by @sillygoose. Never thought about it previously.

-- no Infantry Guns at Infantry Regiment level, these being replaced with an AT Company with 12 dual purpose pieces (for direct fire) and 6x12cm mortars (for indirect);

- AT
-- as the PAW600 is not available, then I'd go with the Soviet 45mm; man-mobile, small, manouverable, good HE shell hence can double as IG!, can kill anything it faces until '41. Another candidate for same reasons - the Austrian Bohler 47mm aka Italian 47/32 (but with different mount and L40). Two such guns in every Infantry Battalion (18), 12 per IR (36) and 18 at Division level - more or less the 72 pieces of OTL :);
-- 75/100mm recoiless rifles with HEAT are tempting - but at this point in time they'd weight about the same/minimally less, are overkill against tanks, have awfull backblast giving away their positions and their ammunition weights many, many times more - hence a no-no.
-- AT rifle - something like the PTRD/PTRS. As no can haz Carl Gustav these 15kg jobbies are the next best thing - 54-108 per division,. Maybe 2 per Infantry Company, the rest somewhere higher up? A Bazooka is tempting - greater tank killing and bunker busting capability, but smaller range. Let us go with the PTRD ... this is '39, after all, with tanks having 30mm armour (if lucky).

- AA Battalion
-- 40mm Bofors and some sort of 20mm automatic cannon

Getting down to Battalion level :)

- Heavy Weapons Company
-- 2x47mm AT (maybe also AT Rifle platoon)
-- 6x8cm mortar (bog standard)
-- 8 HGM on tripods, can be used as AA (with tracer) to scare away flyboys

The HMG is actually a GPMG, belt fed from boxes with 250 rounds, in a powerful 8mm round (think Italian 8x59).

- Rifle Company:
-- Heavy Weapons Platoon with
-- 2x60mm mortar OR 2x80mm - the latter would be the shortened, lightened version (OTL Granatwerfer 42) which weights the same as the 60mm at cost of shorter range. I am not sure if the difference between 1100m and 1800 metres is relevant (I admit my ignorance), but I do know that the weight of ammo matters. It will be much easier to keep the smaller calibre weapons supplied.
-- 2xMMG - the bipod version of GPMG, with 50 round belt in drum (lots of examples dating back to 1914:)). Can use the box too, of course.
-- 2xAT Rifle

- Rifle Platoon:
-- some sort of HE shell lobber. Here I am torn between having a commando mortar like the British 2" and a cleaned up Tromboncino (the M79's grandfather). No Brixia, no Granatnik wz.36, no German 5cm mortar, no Japanese Leg Mortar (which was excellent, BTW) - too complicated for what they did.
For simplicity, the El-Tee's retinue aka Command Squad includes (besides medic, radio man!):
- 2-3x come early M79 (cleaned up Tromboncino*, i.e. a stand alone weapon, not an attachment to a rifle). Actually I'm ripping off the Japanese and their three Leg Mortars in a Fire Support Squad.

-- 3xRifle Squad
11 men with a magazine fed LMG. The ZB30/Bren or maybe the Mendonza 34 are drop-in candidates. This is the Squad's main weapon.
As I am not sure if I can put a reliable semi-automatic rifle into production by the mid '30 the PBI is armed with the Carcano 91 or Arisaka 38. Short rifles (carbines if you wish) with 50-55cm barrels in 6,5mm, with fixed iron sites zeroed to 350-400 metres is all they need. The LMG uses the same cartridge, a spitzer Carcano (not historical) or Arisaka "for LMG" (historical).
If a reliable semiauto is possible then MAS 49 (maybe even 49/56) in 6,5mm all the way, baby :p
An SKS would be nice, too :)

The pistol - which MUST be mentioned - is either the FN 10/22 or the Czech vz.27. I admit the former is sexier :), but weights two or three times as much.

I'd love to give the PBI more oompf when attacking, so - as we are talking about an ideal formation - a Company or maybe even a small Battalion of organic Assault Guns. As this is '39 nothing fancy - a Semovente 75/34, but cleaned up to make it slightly closer in looks to a Hetzer (with cupola?) and with 4 man crew. Nevertheless having even the Semovente 75/18 (with HEAT) would make an InfDiv Commander in 1939 faint from pleasure overload :D

Naturally, as many radios as possible.

Maybe a PPS or MP40 for crewmen of team operated weapons - but with a short rifle available? I'm not sure if needed. Maybe special issue when close range (woods? urban?) combat is expected?

* not exactly a household name, so here's the link to the first (?) user of high-low pressure principle:
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
The Garand rifle platform is simply too light to support full auto fire; we learned that the hard way with the M14. While the Pedersen is lighter and less recoiling, it's still far better suited to semiautomatic fire, while the heavier BAR takes the SAW role. I can see the Johnson LMG perhaps scooping the revised BAR for that SAW contract, though.
For .30-06 and 7.62 NATO absolutely. For .276 Pedersen it should be able to handle it since it is lower powered and uses a lower weight bullet. It effectively was as powerful as the 6.5 Arisaka out of the Federov Avtomat.

Besides the FG-42 could do full auto from the shoulder and be accurate, just need a muzzle brake:


A 7mm Pedersen Johnson would be pretty damn effective.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
For .30-06 and 7.62 NATO absolutely. For .276 Pedersen it should be able to handle it since it is lower powered and uses a lower weight bullet. It effectively was as powerful as the 6.5 Arisaka out of the Federov Avtomat.

Besides the FG-42 could do full auto from the shoulder and be accurate, just need a muzzle brake:


No, the FG-42 was well documented in historical sources as being nearly useless in full auto, just like the M-14. Despite the inline recoil design, muzzle brake and its overall extreme complexity (which is why so few were made), it was only accurate in the semi-automatic mode; even short bursts were exceedingly difficult to control, and sustained full automatic was essentially impossible.
 

Buba

A total creep
With enough arty and radio/cable to call in fire, plus a few machineguns and mortars, the PBI can be armed with Lebel 88s ... as proven in WWI by the winners, the French.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
With enough arty and radio/cable to call in fire, plus a few machineguns and mortars, the PBI can be armed with Lebel 88s ... as proven in WWI by the winners, the French.

That's why my conceptual stuff is focused on a lot of streamlining and mass production. Same reason modern self-propelled artillery streamlined down to the 105mm and 155mm, dropping the heavier 203mm and above calibers. I'm going for the British 25-pounder as the light artillery piece because it was historically demonstrated to be just as effective as 105mm for most purposes -- and better in some ways -- while being a far lighter and more compact piece, which makes it a lot easier to achieve adequate mobility while shoving it into relatively small earlier chassis.
 

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