Important A place to argue about a college education.

[ParadiseLost]

Except they'd (both your hypothetical writer and the engineer) would be infinitely better off reading a book or watching a lecture online than paying thousands and thousands of dollars to sit through what is, at best, exactly what they'd get out of reading a book or watching a lecture online and, at worst-and-overwhelmingly-likely, nothing but a daily social justice seminar.
The degree is worth less than the paper it's printed on, because you're getting something you could have gotten for free, for the cost of at least a decade of toxic debt.

Its hilarious that you think someone can get a job in engineering without a degree. The vast majority of engineering companies won't even look at you without a degree.

In my area companies are so desperate for chemical engineers they'll both pay your tuition and pay you minimum wage while you're in college.

Secondly, you're not really paying for education at college; you're paying for the preexisting career network. I'm not paying my university $26,000 a year (the actual tuition, I pay much less than that due to various scholarships) to give me an education. I'm paying them $26,000* a year because people in my program generally get offered a job for $55,000+ a year (not including what is usually fairly substantial benefits and bonuses in my field) before their senior year is even over.

I'll be far better off, of course than the average person whether they went to college or not. (Barring my terrible overspending habits, like my addiction to buying video games.)

* What I'm actually paying is $0. I'm taking about ~$7 in debt a year.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Its hilarious that you think someone can get a job in engineering without a degree. The vast majority of engineering companies won't even look at you without a degree.

Oh, fuck, with that level of reading comprehension you really do need a class. However, you still shouldn't pay for one.

Try again there slugger, I'll pitch underhand next time.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Oh, fuck, with that level of reading comprehension you really do need a class. However, you still shouldn't pay for one.

Try again there slugger, I'll pitch underhand next time.

If you were simply saying the engineer would be better off reading to get an education and to learn - ignoring the job seeking aspects of it - then I'd still disagree.

Most people who are 18 are fairly irresponsible. I think the number of 18-22 year olds who actually have the high level of will and discipline needed to teach themselves engineering is very, very low.

And if getting a job wasn't what you were talking about by them being "infinitely better off reading a book or watching a lecture," what were you talking about? I'd much rather have an engineering degree and a 6 figure job than have been self-taught in engineering and have no one willing to hire me.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

If you were simply saying the engineer would be better off reading to get an education and to learn - ignoring the job seeking aspects of it - then I'd still disagree.

Most people who are 18 are fairly irresponsible. I think the number of 18-22 year olds who actually have the high level of will and discipline needed to teach themselves engineering is very, very low.

STEEEEEEERIKE two

Do you want to take another swing at it or should I just walk you now.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Except they'd (both your hypothetical writer and the engineer) would be infinitely better off reading a book or watching a lecture online than paying thousands and thousands of dollars to sit through what is, at best, exactly what they'd get out of reading a book or watching a lecture online and, at worst-and-overwhelmingly-likely, nothing but a daily social justice seminar.
The degree is worth less than the paper it's printed on, because you're getting something you could have gotten for free, for the cost of at least a decade of toxic debt.

STEEEEEEERIKE two

Do you want to take another swing at it or should I just walk you now.

Define what you mean by "infinitely better off" in the above paragraph.

Honestly you sound like you're engaging in sophistry and verbal obfuscation rather than trying to make a serious point.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Define what you mean by "infinitely better off" in the above paragraph.

Honestly you sound like you're engaging in sophistry and verbal obfuscation rather than trying to make a serious point.

Okay big guy, take a deep breath. Oh, and try really hard not to edit your posts with more points without pointing it out. Bad form.

We were talking about the following:

1. Taking non stem courses (specifically english) as someone interested in writing
2. Taking non stem courses (specifically english) as someone uninterested in writing but who wants to sound literate in their career

To which I responded with the following point:
Best case, that course (*whistles* the english/writing course, you following this time?) is going to be the equivalent of what you could easily get for free online, and in the overwhelmingly likely case it's going to be nothing but endless SJW propaganda, so you're literally paying to be lied to and berated for weeks on end.


To which you responded
"IT'S HILARIOUS YOU THINK ENGINEERS DONT NEED ENGINEERING DEGREES"


Dont worry about this embarrassing incident, we'll probably be kicked from the thread shortly.

 

[ParadiseLost]

To which I responded with the following point:
Best case, that course (*whistles* the english/writing course, you following this time?) is going to be the equivalent of what you could easily get for free online, and in the overwhelmingly likely case it's going to be nothing but endless SJW propaganda, so you're literally paying to be lied to and berated for weeks on end.

Quite frankly, you sound like someone who never went to college or who went to community college when you say shit like this.

I know "SJWs at college" stuff comes up a lot, but that's because there's a fuck ton of colleges, professors, and students in the US and people eat that shit up. It doesn't actually well reflect reality.

Also quite frankly again you can't easily get the same structure of forced accountability and responsibility that you do in a classroom.

 

[Deleted member 1]

This thread was created due to a significant derail, but it can resume here in the new place.

 

[Aaron Fox]

The thing about the college debt problem is that the state has largely stopped basically backing the students with large wads of cash and subsidizing colleges. In addition, there are only two textbook companies in the US and one is from Texas and the other is from California, a duopoly if you will.

Back in the day, the US and the various state governments simply pouring money into education and, specifically, colleges. That is before the current anti-intellectual bullshit took hold in the GOP and used 'balancing the budget' as an excuse.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

The problem with modern education is that unless your part of preferred group it'll never pay for itself. Colleges will drag you through different programs to try and squeeze as many shekels out of you as possible via unnecessary classes and textbooks. Even if you manage to get a job, you bassaclly are rewarded with being in debt for the rest of your life, so your options are either mediocre paying job, being in debt for the rest of your life or trying to make it in the alt-economy.

you essentially sell your body for a piece of paper that many foreigners abrod have gotten for much cheaper price, so not only can companies get woke points, they can hire someone for cheaper. It's a win win.

 

[Aaron Fox]

The problem with modern education is that unless your part of preferred group it'll never pay for itself. Colleges will drag you through different programs to try and squeeze as many shekels out of you as possible via unnecessary classes and textbooks. Even if you manage to get a job, you bassaclly are rewarded with being in debt for the rest of your life, so your options are either mediocre paying job, being in debt for the rest of your life or trying to make it in the alt-economy.

you essentially sell your body for a piece of paper that many foreigners abrod have gotten for much cheaper price, so they not only can companies get woke points, they can hire someone for cheaper.

This is largely due to the fact that the US as a whole stopped subsidizing colleges in general. The era of 'cheap' college was basically an era where the US basically paid colleges to teach, not to be businesses.

 

[Zachowon]

In the Army, even though we can get a lot of degrees through our MOS, and job experience, they still want us to get degrees. So plenty of people go to college, online and in person to get degrees.

If one could learn college like we do an MOS then they would not encourage the Army to go got college

 

[Doomsought]

The thing about the college debt problem is that the state has largely stopped basically backing the students with large wads of cash and subsidizing colleges. In addition, there are only two textbook companies in the US and one is from Texas and the other is from California, a duopoly if you will.

The actually problem is that it is impossible to declare bankruptcy on the debt when the degree turns out to be useless and you get a job spitting on burgers at McDonalds. If this wasn't the case, there would be an incentive to make the degrees actually valuable.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

The actually problem is that it is impossible to declare bankruptcy on the debt when the degree turns out to be useless and you get a job spitting on burgers at McDonalds. If this wasn't the case, there would be an incentive to make the degrees actually valuable.

wouldin't that have been nice. *Sigh* worse thing I ever did was listen to my career cousaloures and my colleges marketing ploys.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Colleges will drag you through different programs to try and squeeze as many shekels out of you as possible via unnecessary classes and textbooks.

Lets not use phrases that carry heavy connotations of anti-Semitism.

Even if you manage to get a job, you basically are rewarded with being in debt for the rest of your life, so your options are either mediocre paying job, being in debt for the rest of your life or trying to make it in the alt-economy.

you essentially sell your body for a piece of paper that many foreigners abroad have gotten for much cheaper price, so they not only can companies get woke points, they can hire someone for cheaper.

Average college debt is $26,000. That's a $300/month payment to pay back in ten years.

The median American mortgage payment is $1500.

The reality is that a lot of American's money problems are due to living above their means and not using their money wisely; beyond that, the people legitimately struggling with student loan payments are a small minority.

This is largely due to the fact that the US as a whole stopped subsidizing colleges in general. The era of 'cheap' college was basically an era where the US basically paid colleges to teach, not to be businesses.

Personally, I blame the idea that everyone needs to go to college. College should be for those who really need it, not for everyone.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Personally, I blame the idea that everyone needs to go to college. College should be for those who really need it, not for everyone.

No, the sad thing is that automation and globalization started killing off manufacturing and high-paying primary jobs en-mass back in the late '70s, leaving practically nothing for everyone getting out of high school that could allow for a modest human living. Without well-paying introductory jobs, college is the only methodology to get anything resembling a middle-class lifestyle...

... although if you twist my words and use it to say globalization is the enemy, I'll slap you in the face for putting words in my mouth.

 

[King Krávoka]

... although if you twist my words and use it to say globalization is the enemy, I'll slap you in the face for putting words in my mouth.

You're more of a luddite, got it.

 

[Aaron Fox]

You're more of a luddite, got it.

... I asked for that one didn't I? /semi-serious

I'm something of a transhumanist myself...

 

[ParadiseLost]

No, the sad thing is that automation and globalization started killing off manufacturing and high-paying primary jobs en-mass back in the late '70s, leaving practically nothing for everyone getting out of high school that could allow for a modest human living. Without well-paying introductory jobs, college is the only methodology to get anything resembling a middle-class lifestyle...

... although if you twist my words and use it to say globalization is the enemy, I'll slap you in the face for putting words in my mouth.

Automation is overestimated as a job killer IMVHO.

Though, I'm not sure what sense it makes to say "Globalization and automation is killing the American middle class [a reasonable interpretation I think of what you said; correct me if I'm wrong], but Globalization isn't our enemy."

 

[Doomsought]

Automation trades four lower class laborers for one middle class technician.

Globalization trades lower class laborers for Chinese slaves.

College for everyone reduced upper middle class professions to lower middle class professions.