D
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I think Harlock just couldn't take away the glory of the Line from humanity in his writing. Which, you have to admit, is a compelling reason.
Babylon 5 A Fighting Chance --- A Babylon 5 AU
- Thread starter Harlock
- Start date
Chris O'Farrell
Member
Oh, no question.
And the Nemesis going out with a bang was bloody awesome. I get the feeling the Warlock class is going to be named the Nemesis class going forward. But I think Joe was flat out wrong about his Grass Skirt running out of luck. It saved the best luck for last; that was a Hail Mary play if there ever was one. The odds of pulling it off had to be obscenely low; two critically damaged ships with wrecked power systems, jump drives that could barely be called 'functional' and the inherent inaccuracy of EA jump engines? Doing something against all compueter controlled protocols without anything but a manual override and cross your fingers? On the fly?
I think his skirt saved the bulk of his luck for when it truly mattered, so Nemesis could pull off a final killing spree (even if it technically had to share the kills with Warspite) to ensure her kill count in this battle remained top of the charts
And the Nemesis going out with a bang was bloody awesome. I get the feeling the Warlock class is going to be named the Nemesis class going forward. But I think Joe was flat out wrong about his Grass Skirt running out of luck. It saved the best luck for last; that was a Hail Mary play if there ever was one. The odds of pulling it off had to be obscenely low; two critically damaged ships with wrecked power systems, jump drives that could barely be called 'functional' and the inherent inaccuracy of EA jump engines? Doing something against all compueter controlled protocols without anything but a manual override and cross your fingers? On the fly?
I think his skirt saved the bulk of his luck for when it truly mattered, so Nemesis could pull off a final killing spree (even if it technically had to share the kills with Warspite) to ensure her kill count in this battle remained top of the charts
mwkillkenny84
Well-known member
Regarding the Nemesis' final Hail Mary, am I the only one that see her captain ordering her spirit to go to Hell and "Rip and Tear Nemesis. Rip and tear boneheads there, until it is done"?
Harlock
I should have expected that really
I admit I did bluff a bit with Jha'dur I did want that little voice saying 'She'll save the day at the last second' in sort of a mirror of Ari helping Sinclair, but that would have been a bit too easy I did intend it to be a mainly human affair to echo the original Battle so I can say it was plain old human courage and resourcefulness that carried the day. And some sacrifice.
Though Deathwalker's action is there for a reason, it shows she's ready to go into harms way for Earth which is going to help her reputation a lot, and it demonstrates she understands and can effectively use human forces. It also shows those EA ships are prepared to listen to her, albeit grudgingly.
While not critical here it will have a pay off when the EA and Dilgar form unified fleets for the counter attack
I did want that little voice saying 'She'll save the day at the last second' in sort of a mirror of Ari helping Sinclair, but that would have been a bit too easy I did intend it to be a mainly human affair to echo the original Battle so I can say it was plain old human courage and resourcefulness that carried the day. And some sacrifice.Though Deathwalker's action is there for a reason, it shows she's ready to go into harms way for Earth which is going to help her reputation a lot, and it demonstrates she understands and can effectively use human forces. It also shows those EA ships are prepared to listen to her, albeit grudgingly.
While not critical here it will have a pay off when the EA and Dilgar form unified fleets for the counter attack
mwkillkenny84
Well-known member
I can already see her ham it up on open frequencies if/when the counter attack will start in the first battle that will saw a combined EA/Dilgar fleet Vs Minbari.
I try one, can someone better make the corrections?
"Hello Minbari, I'm Deathwalker, and I am here to show you how much I find irritating you killing off the nearest human I could have called a Worthy Foe.
"With the help of all the new friends the Dilgar have, of course."
trekchu
For the FEDCOM! For the Archon-Prince!
Someone who is more familiar with B5 humanity (haven't seen the show in literally a decade) enlighten me, but how long can the EA keep this up?
The losses they took must be straining them severely, with manpower and economy alike being very strained.
The losses they took must be straining them severely, with manpower and economy alike being very strained.
Harlock
I should have expected that really
potentially years. They managed two and a half years in canon against the Minbari and that was a losing war with diminishing territory and resources. In this instance with a still active trade network and worlds fairly safe from attack looks fairly positive.
Though of course going on the offensive will drain more resources and stretch logistics. Plus the Minbari are likely to be fierce in their resistance so casualties will be high.
The decider will be if the Minbari can also mobilise. They are slow to start but once they get going they can start flooding space with ships too. It takes longer to build a Minbari ship so there is a ramp up time, but their industry is well established if very old.
Earth would need to knock out the Minbari before they get to a total war footing. Otherwise it's going to be a very bloody grind with neither side having a clear advantage. Earth may rush through new superior ships, but the Minbari can do that too.
Certainly still a lot of uncertainty despite the EA holding together.
Though of course going on the offensive will drain more resources and stretch logistics. Plus the Minbari are likely to be fierce in their resistance so casualties will be high.
The decider will be if the Minbari can also mobilise. They are slow to start but once they get going they can start flooding space with ships too. It takes longer to build a Minbari ship so there is a ramp up time, but their industry is well established if very old.
Earth would need to knock out the Minbari before they get to a total war footing. Otherwise it's going to be a very bloody grind with neither side having a clear advantage. Earth may rush through new superior ships, but the Minbari can do that too.
Certainly still a lot of uncertainty despite the EA holding together.
mwkillkenny84
Well-known member
They can keep up until the Minbari economy and war machine implode from overstraining.
Shadow'ed!
The main fly in the oinment of the "Minbari Mobilization" is the Worker and Religious Caste deciding that the Warrior Caste's losses in their 'Holy Crusade' have to stop before the rest of them will have to pay for their overzealous attitudes.
trekchu
For the FEDCOM! For the Archon-Prince!
I see, thank you.
So what about that deal with the Centauri? If that goes through, the existence of artificial gravity in the EA tech base is certainly going to be a paradigm shift in design, both for ships and for the Station itself, assuming she gets built.
So what about that deal with the Centauri? If that goes through, the existence of artificial gravity in the EA tech base is certainly going to be a paradigm shift in design, both for ships and for the Station itself, assuming she gets built.
Silverbullet
Active member
Found the pic that kind of encapsulates what I meant by how I envision a Psicorp Teep being hooked to a ships computer.
Besides human Teeps can be major assets in a space fight. Look a Lyta.
Besides human Teeps can be major assets in a space fight. Look a Lyta.
It's not really gonig to matter for the war here. It would take too long to integrate into existing designs, and having artificial gravity changes a lot of design assumptions of ships as well. It's still a huge plus for the EA, but for down-the-road.
Chris O'Farrell
Member
I admit I did bluff a bit with Jha'dur
Though Deathwalker's action is there for a reason, it shows she's ready to go into harms way for Earth which is going to help her reputation a lot, and it demonstrates she understands and can effectively use human forces. It also shows those EA ships are prepared to listen to her, albeit grudgingly.
While not critical here it will have a pay off when the EA and Dilgar form unified fleets for the counter attack
Cock tease. Seriously I was looking forward to another Battle of Balos with 'Deathwalkers Best ... Day ... Ever!' as she brilliantly leads the EA fleet. Quite probably my most loved bits in TDW were when she against all military logic and in defiance of common sense, came up with an off-the-wall battle plan that she pulled off magnificently.
Well ... second most loved bits. I have to say that "Gods ... I've killed us all" followed by "Begin code Abraxs..." are #1
I honestly think there was plenty of scope for both (and we've seen PLENTY of pure human grit and courage in this fic and the battle anyway) but fair enough.
But, I'd consider it a very long bow to say that this has earned her more than a bare minimum of acceptance, she's still the greatest mass murderer in history. I'd expect a LOT of Earthforce captians are going to have to take long, hot showers and scrub their skin raw because of the fact that they had no choice but to follow her to save the day.
Or, as Stannis loves saying, 'A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good'.
Still insomuch as Jha'dur won't be involved on the front lines after this point and you're talking more about people like Ari serving as the interface, it works as a 'Well if we can even grudgingly work with fucking Deathwalker for a battle, we can surely work with someone like him, wot?'
I'd also note that in the OTL they had minimal support from the LONAW. Thanks to the *shudders* Dilgar, at least the Drazi and Narn have moved into co-belligerent stance and the rest of the League at least is keeping the economy going (I'm going to guess that trade in the OTL crashed to very little even before the League was cut off from Earth by the Minbari). The Centauri while not fighting, now have the stealth technology countermeasures and have Earth fighting successfully against the Minbari to show that while they are powerful, even Earth can fight them ... and the Centuari are much closer in technology to the Minbari than Earth. So at the very least they will not have fear of the Minbari stopping them from staying economically engaged...
If the Minbari are already having to scrape the Religious and Worker casts for trained personnel, things are not looking good for them in the long term, industry aside. Its one thing to have the ability to build ships, but crewing and manning them is something else. Earthforce can replace its losses in personnel and are already on a full war footing for pumping out crew, the Minbari ... their society REALLY doesn't deal with rapid change needing agility and setting aside tradition to just get things done.
Not to mention the whole negative birthrate thing.
Of course, Earth would probably be looking to disrupt the hell out of that as soon as possible. Although the MInbari being able to fly much further off the beacons and patrol them to make deep raiding incredibly hard. But even during the Shadow War the Minbari never seemed to go onto anything like a full war footing, this despite their ancient enemies rampaging across space even BEFORE the Council broke! The Whitestar fleet was less than 200 ships in total and had to be built in secret with Vorlon help to bypass the Warrior cast giving zero fucks...
The Minbari have lost a fuckload of ships now - including a good chunk of their mothballed reserve ships.
If they had brains, they'd seize the Rangers attempts to broker peace with both hands and come with some -any- face saving reason to accept that they have caused massive damage to Earths military and scared the crap out of them with a deep strike on their homeworld that almost got pulled off, call it even!
Of course, as Michael Garabaldi pointed out, the Minbari seem genetically incapable of backing down from a fight...
I do have to question Branmers logic on attacking Earth, his stated objective was to force Earth into accepting a face saving treaty with the Minbari.
And there lies the problem doesn't it? Attacking someones homeworld inevitably causes a grudge. So on the one hand - you succeed, congratulations decades from now when they are certain they can beat you? Earth-Minbari war part 2.
Or as in this story. Well good luck, you came literal moments away from killing tens of millions of people... but failed to do any true damage.
I'd be kind of shocked if Earth accepted a deal that wasn't extremely generous, the Dilgar war was a matter of morality and politics. This war on the other hand is intensely personal and as we saw in the show, the humans aren't going to be letting this go any time soon.
And because it needs mentioning (i cried), Joe Tennant was a war hero and Nemesis was a popular enough ship that it got a TV show. That he saves Earth using a suicide attack is going to resonate, especially considering it was very much a "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" kind of moment when the reserve squadron jumped in.
And there lies the problem doesn't it? Attacking someones homeworld inevitably causes a grudge. So on the one hand - you succeed, congratulations decades from now when they are certain they can beat you? Earth-Minbari war part 2.
Or as in this story. Well good luck, you came literal moments away from killing tens of millions of people... but failed to do any true damage.
I'd be kind of shocked if Earth accepted a deal that wasn't extremely generous, the Dilgar war was a matter of morality and politics. This war on the other hand is intensely personal and as we saw in the show, the humans aren't going to be letting this go any time soon.
And because it needs mentioning (i cried), Joe Tennant was a war hero and Nemesis was a popular enough ship that it got a TV show. That he saves Earth using a suicide attack is going to resonate, especially considering it was very much a "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" kind of moment when the reserve squadron jumped in.
Harlock
I should have expected that really
Cock tease. Seriously I was looking forward to another Battle of Balos with 'Deathwalkers Best ... Day ... Ever!' as she brilliantly leads the EA fleet. Quite probably my most loved bits in TDW were when she against all military logic and in defiance of common sense, came up with an off-the-wall battle plan that she pulled off magnificently.
Well ... second most loved bits. I have to say that "Gods ... I've killed us all" followed by "Begin code Abraxs..." are #1
I honestly think there was plenty of scope for both (and we've seen PLENTY of pure human grit and courage in this fic and the battle anyway) but fair enough.
But, I'd consider it a very long bow to say that this has earned her more than a bare minimum of acceptance, she's still the greatest mass murderer in history. I'd expect a LOT of Earthforce captians are going to have to take long, hot showers and scrub their skin raw because of the fact that they had no choice but to follow her to save the day.
Or, as Stannis loves saying, 'A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good'.
Still insomuch as Jha'dur won't be involved on the front lines after this point and you're talking more about people like Ari serving as the interface, it works as a 'Well if we can even grudgingly work with fucking Deathwalker for a battle, we can surely work with someone like him, wot?'
I'd also note that in the OTL they had minimal support from the LONAW. Thanks to the *shudders* Dilgar, at least the Drazi and Narn have moved into co-belligerent stance and the rest of the League at least is keeping the economy going (I'm going to guess that trade in the OTL crashed to very little even before the League was cut off from Earth by the Minbari). The Centauri while not fighting, now have the stealth technology countermeasures and have Earth fighting successfully against the Minbari to show that while they are powerful, even Earth can fight them ... and the Centuari are much closer in technology to the Minbari than Earth. So at the very least they will not have fear of the Minbari stopping them from staying economically engaged...
If the Minbari are already having to scrape the Religious and Worker casts for trained personnel, things are not looking good for them in the long term, industry aside. Its one thing to have the ability to build ships, but crewing and manning them is something else. Earthforce can replace its losses in personnel and are already on a full war footing for pumping out crew, the Minbari ... their society REALLY doesn't deal with rapid change needing agility and setting aside tradition to just get things done.
Not to mention the whole negative birthrate thing.
Of course, Earth would probably be looking to disrupt the hell out of that as soon as possible. Although the MInbari being able to fly much further off the beacons and patrol them to make deep raiding incredibly hard. But even during the Shadow War the Minbari never seemed to go onto anything like a full war footing, this despite their ancient enemies rampaging across space even BEFORE the Council broke! The Whitestar fleet was less than 200 ships in total and had to be built in secret with Vorlon help to bypass the Warrior cast giving zero fucks...
The Minbari have lost a fuckload of ships now - including a good chunk of their mothballed reserve ships.
If they had brains, they'd seize the Rangers attempts to broker peace with both hands and come with some -any- face saving reason to accept that they have caused massive damage to Earths military and scared the crap out of them with a deep strike on their homeworld that almost got pulled off, call it even!
Of course, as Michael Garabaldi pointed out, the Minbari seem genetically incapable of backing down from a fight...
No worries mate, I can tell you that this was just the warm up. Saving Earth would look amazing on her CV, but there is something else that would look even better. That is what I'm lining her up for.
She is unquestionably enjoying every second of this and will be having even more fun in the last few chapters. The Dilgar by now are committed to the fight, their timing is impeccable of course, as you say the Minbari fleet is a shadow of its former self. Pun not intended
The risk/reward balance is shifting and not just for the Dilgar. The Minbari are in a dangerous position and no government is going to turn a blind eye to such an opportunity.
Most of the less cautious Minbari are gone, still a few left, but I'd expect there is fa less opposition to peace. Still there though so likely a couple more fights to go, but this was a turning point. They really do now seem to understand this is not a good place to be.
It will certainly shape attitudes, Branmer was hoping casualties on Earth would be light but he is also thinking like a Minbari where the castes are separate and industry is in a defined location away from major cities and cultural centres. He is smart but he is still missing some nuances of the culture which let him down.
You are right though, the EA won't be content with the same sort of peace they wanted earlier. By now too much blood spilled and hearts hardened. As the Minbari become more open to the idea Earth becomes less so.
Nemesis is definitely a symbol of the old Earth Force, and her departure is part of how things are changing. We won't be going Clark era but the Golden Age is most definitely over and the years to come are far less appealing and characterful.
Trace Coburn
BattleTech Starfighter Analyst
I’d imagine that when she fantasises of her perfect death, it would have come fighting Earth (again), against forces commanded by her ‘worthy foe’ Hamato, and the final duel would’ve been between her dreadnaught and The Lady (who spent the last War feasting on Dilgar blood and tears). Would she succumb to Nemesis after exhausting every weapon and ounce of cunning she had, or does their only fitting end lie in mutual destruction? It probably varied, depending on her mood — but I doubt she’d ever admit that any other ship or captain in any navy had earned the right to kill her so much as Nemesis and Joe Tennant had.
So yes, I’d think she probably feels a little cheated, and laments the passing of the finest honour-guard she could’ve asked for on the way to Dilgar Valhalla. By the same token, to now have those same forces on her side — and some even briefly under her command! — would be delicious irony to her.
So yes, I’d think she probably feels a little cheated, and laments the passing of the finest honour-guard she could’ve asked for on the way to Dilgar Valhalla. By the same token, to now have those same forces on her side — and some even briefly under her command! — would be delicious irony to her.